[Mountainman21]

Originally Posted by vennarbank

I agree. We want free vaccines for all. We want free handouts during covid period. We do not want increase in taxes. Government needs to take care of intruding neighbours. Where will money come from. I also accept that rate is too high but if we need so many free items, there is going to be taxation somewhere. BTW, let us talk from purely governmental POV and not make this a political discussion.

Well need to jump in here, "we" is very vague. Nobody is asking for free handouts. Everyone is seeking their taxes worth (direct and indirect). It's the government which is promising freebies to the people. Case in point, free vaccination was promised to Bihar, recently 18,000 per person has been promised to West Bengal, In Assam fuel taxes has been decreased and many such examples exist. Government is not taxing us to give us what we want, they are taxing us to give/ promise things free where they want to win elections.

Also, government has done a lot of unnecessary expenditures (new parliament house, sending pictures of political leaders to space https://www.businesstoday.in/technol...ry/431282.html and many more examples again), these could be avoided and then tax the nation and it's citizen prudently.

Just my two cents and don't want to argue as these discussions needs to be done F2F if any agreement needs to reached by either party.

[IP_Man]

Originally Posted by vennarbank

I agree. We want free vaccines for all. We want free handouts during covid period. We do not want increase in taxes. Government needs to take care of intruding neighbours. Where will money come from.

That doesn't mean government should depend only on one source of revenue i.e. tax on the fuel. There are other ways also but for that we need strong economist like Dr. Manmohan Singh.

[anoop cheeran]

Originally Posted by vennarbank

I agree. We want free vaccines for all. We want free handouts during covid period. BTW, let us talk from purely governmental POV and not make this a political discussion.

This is precisely the mind set (that seem to have set in only after 2014) that has gotten us to where we are now, am afraid. Why this cottonwooling of our Netas like never before? Country and it's people is not just few leaders, alone. Absolute adherence to anything told as a narrative, complete linkage of political agenda as national interest and disinclination to question those who needs to be accountable, both from the system and the people is leading us to a state where anything goes, nothing is any one's fault. As someone here mentioned, prior governments have handled $120 a barrel, governments and Netas who walked before have handled draught, famine and much worser global and local economic downturns. Let not our political inclinations blind us so much, we turn so benevolent, we try and de-politicize something that is very much created by the politics around us. Accountability and integrity is what we seek from our car manufacturers in forums like this. Why desist from the same when it come to those who shape policy and narratives, for matters much more crucial like day to day sustenance and quality of life?

[dragracer567]

It’s funny how everything in India gets so political and polarised these days! At the end of the day, the government needs money to run the country but most Indians are too poor to pay any income tax (which is clearly their fault for being poor), salaried Indian don’t have as much disposable income anymore to pay for products with GST (which is also their fault for not having a high salary). Honestly if I was sitting in the centre, slowly realising that mismanaging the economy actually leads to economic problems, this is exactly what I would do - raise taxes from petrol!

Please understand the sarcasm here.

Originally Posted by Vinod_nair

Why so much hue and cry about petrol price?

My son sent in the latest price in the Mecca of fuel producer of Riyadh.Attachment 2123429
91 octane price SR. 1.81 =INR 36/-
95 octane price SR. 1.94 =INR 40/-

To be fair, if you lived in Saudi Arabia in the 2010s, the petrol price was around SAR 0.3 back then. So, fuel prices has increased 6 times in less than a decade. That along with the new 15% VAT is Saudi’s way of milking / rationalising it’s finances!

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A bit of international context of petrol prices around the world:

Guess what I am paying? Hint: the third most expensive petrol in the world!

Jeroen

To be fair, the average annual wage for the Dutch was $51,313 in 2018 (Source: OECD, not adjusted for purchasing power) while it was $1,875 for India in 2020 (Source: Statistica) . Of course, I understand that the people who can afford to own a car in India earn much more than the average wage but even if its INR 600,000 ($8.2k), it’s still less than 1/5th that of the average Dutch income while the fuel prices are just about 60% higher. So, based on your purchasing power, fuel is cheaper for you

[rahulskumar]

The volume of imports and consumption of fuel has almost doubled from 2014. That means the revenue generated from taxing fuel has brought in huge revenue. I hope the government fails next time as they are not even able to control prices of onion. Every time the gas prices increases, it directly affects the price of food.

Bad policies ruining common man who are already taxed to max without any benefits. For roadies like us, pay fuel price that is nearly the highest in the world, pay additional tolls for using roads (we dont even have alternate option to avoid tolls on most of the routes), there are 5 entry points to Mumbai and all are tolled for no reason. No wonder the tax paying rich are fleeing our country

[PioneerNB]

Think of it as:
a) your contribution to nation building
b) penalty for increasing pollutants and green-house gas on this earth

To be honest, when Petrol/Diesel become expensive then the alternative fuels / engines / supply chain will also start looking viable.

Enough has been said by many on the indirect rise in costs we are to bear, so I shall not add further.

A common man today cannot afford an ambulance because of the high costs associated with fuel. For every increase in fuel costs all other sectors, industries increase their base price a bit.

What hurts me most is when crude was $100 there were protests but now its just silence and contribution to build a nation.

Seriously wish to settle out of India where my taxes at least give me something in return and even if it does not: I will have good roads to drive/ride away my displeasure.

[Sankar]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A bit of international context of petrol prices around the world:

Source: https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

Guess what I am paying? Hint: the third most expensive petrol in the world!

Jeroen

Wow and I thought we would figure in the top ten list

[Shiftlock]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

A bit of international context of petrol prices around the world:

Attachment 2123476

Source: https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/gasoline_prices/

Guess what I am paying? Hint: the third most expensive petrol in the world!

Jeroen

On a lighter note, I showed this chart to my dad and when he saw the cost of gasoline in Venezuela, he told me he used to pay 50% of that when we were living there some 12 years ago

[Vinod_nair]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

To be fair, if you lived in Saudi Arabia in the 2010s, the petrol price was around SAR 0.3 back then. So, fuel prices has increased 6 times in less than a decade. That along with the new 15% VAT is Saudi’s way of milking / rationalising it’s finances!

Well it was 0.6H when I came back in'16. And 0.15H in late '90's, I remember bangladeshi's, and pathan's, used to ride Honda Dio, and the pump attendent used to top them up without taking any money

Those were the days.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by dragracer567

To be fair, the average annual wage for the Dutch was $51,313 in 2018 (Source: OECD, not adjusted for purchasing power) while it was $1,875 for India in 2020 (Source: Statistica) . Of course, I understand that the people who can afford to own a car in India earn much more than the average wage but even if its INR 600,000 ($8.2k), it’s still less than 1/5th that of the average Dutch income while the fuel prices are just about 60% higher. So, based on your purchasing power, fuel is cheaper for you

No mistake, the Netherlands is a very prosperous country, one of the most prosperous countries in the world in fact. Nothing to complain about when it comes to how we compare to most of the world, no mistake

Just a few additional thoughts on this, to provide a bit more context on cars, salaries and petrol cost in countries:

In general I believe it does not make sense to compare average salaries. What is much more relevant is to look at mediaan salary. Average is just the mathemetical average of all salaries. Mediaan (I am not sure if I am using the correct term here) is about what salary is earned most.

In the Netherlands we have this so called modaal (mediaan) salary at Euro 36,500 gross annually. That works out at about Euro 2,100,-- nett a month.

For the Netherlands this is a much better reflection as about 80% of our population falls into this category within a very decent bandwidth. It is effectively the middle class. And almost anywhere in the world the middle class tend to be able to afford cars. Many Dutch families would buy second hand though.

In the affordability of car ownership, price of petrol (or rather fuel) is a consideration, but not the only one.

We have additional cost here, that some countries don’t have, such as road tax. On a Ford Focus Petrol you would pay about Euro 700 annually and Euro 1200 for a diesel. Insurance, with no claim bonus on a Ford Focus would be a couple of thousand Euro’s as well. So even before you have driven a single meter, you will have committed to spending several thousands of euro’s in road tax and insurance alone! (About a nett month salary or more). So that is before we start talking about depreciation and maintenance.

So just the fixed operating cost of a car (insurance/road tax) would be about 1 to 2 month nett salary for most Dutch people. That is a fairly big chunk out of your disposable income. So you will find that owning a car in the Netherlands for most people/family is still one of the biggest financial commitments they tend to make, next to renting or buying a house. People tend to spend more money on their cars then on their holiday! Although I don’t have data at hand, I suspect this is not unusual for many middle classes around the world. It’s all relative.

I have no idea how this mediaan salary would work out for India. Even thought the middle class has been increasing substantially for the last couple of decades, it is still a relatively low portion of the total population. And that does reflect in car ownership per head of the population. Obviously.

No matter how you dice or slice it, car ownership tends to be a relative expensive affair for most of us.

When we lived in the USA everything was much, much cheaper than we were used too. Including car ownership, petrol, maintenance, parts everything! Loved it!

If there is one significant difference between India and the Netherland it is that prosperity in general is available to a much larger part of the total population. The bandwidth in disposable income for the vast majority of people is relatively small. (less than 1% of the population makes more than euro 100,000 gross annually. (about Euro 50,000 nett)

Jeroen

[any23]

Originally Posted by Sanjunair5

Your idea is good. But it is very difficult to stay neutral in this discussion. Let me explain why.

Government's job is a balancing act. They earn (via taxes, borrowings etc.) and spend (for freebies, subsidies, growth and job creating avenues). They also make policies that can prove to be beneficial in the short run or long run or both. These can be small time or big time reforms, that bring in private sector money into the equation.

This balance, I believe, is heavily imbalanced now. Private sector spending is low. I do not think lowering corporate taxes has helped. So government is forced to spend to bring growth back on track. Government needs money and so they are taxing the hell out of people. In the process government is sucking our purchasing power of consumers leading to a weak demand scenario. Which in turn leads to weak growth. Government's job is to balance their earnings and spending so as to achieve fast, high and sustainable growth.

The present government is struggling in this balancing act. And that is why I said it is difficult to stay neutral or debate about this situation without talking about the government.

In support -
Govt. earns 18lakh crores from revenue and is spending 36lakh crore, from where the balance will come to fill the deficit gap. As per recent info property of 11 millionaire of India has grown to such extent during covid-19 times that they can fund the MANREGA budget for 10 years , whereas 24% of population have income less than INR 3000/- a month. I don't see any balance, neither any efforts by gov to balance it out in near future.
Ports, Airports, Highways, railways, profit making PSUs, even agriculture is getting privatized just to raise fund to run the show and in the name of Vikas(development). This concentration of all the businesses in the hands of few businessmen will lead to such a misbalance that as a country we might fail someday.
INDIA needs balanced mixed economy till the monetary disparity is balanced out to an extent.

[prakash_ajp]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

No matter how you dice or slice it, car ownership tends to be a relative expensive affair for most of us.

When we lived in the USA everything was much, much cheaper than we were used too. Including car ownership, petrol, maintenance, parts everything! Loved it!
Jeroen

Another country that discourages owning a car like that is Singapore. But good thing about them is, either the public transportation is very good or using a bicycle to commute is not only encouraged but also doesn't put your life in any kind of danger.

So, I would compare India more with the USA, because of the lack of a good quality public transportation largely in both the countries. Basically, you pay for everything and get nothing back. We pay high tax on cars, we pay road tax, we pay toll for the highways and get what? Roads filled with potholes and peppered with barricades at intersection of every village road. I don't want to sound like a rich brat, but having to slow down at every such place just because the government can't educate people how to merge/cross a highway in a safe manner is pathetic.

[dragracer567]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I have no idea how this mediaan salary would work out for India. Even thought the middle class has been increasing substantially for the last couple of decades, it is still a relatively low portion of the total population. And that does reflect in car ownership per head of the population. Obviously.

No matter how you dice or slice it, car ownership tends to be a relative expensive affair for most of us.

You are absolutely right! The median is a much more appropriate statistical tool given that it is less affected by huge variations in the base data. However, such a comparison isn’t possible in India because a breakdown of the data isn’t available since atleast 2011 (someone please let me know if I’m wrong here). OECD countries are much more transparent with the availability of such data (no surprises there).

Now, why won’t the Indian government release the base data? Is it to hide the fact that most of the increase in income was due to the rich getting richer? That’s for every individual to ponder!

Also the cost of car ownership is indeed quite high in the Netherlands. Now, I don’t know how it compares with other Western European countries but I guess the Dutch government in general doesn’t have an incentive to make car ownership cheaper. Since the Netherlands is a very densely populated country with most people living around the city center, your nearest supermarket is probably less than 8 minutes by bike and a very dense rail system means it’s actually possible to travel between cities very easily just by bike and rail. When I was in Belgium, I actually knew professors who commuted between Brussels and Ghent just by bike and rail as they either had a folding bike or permanently parked a second bike at the Gent-Sint-Pieters railway station.

Now compare that with the US or Australia where supermarkets tend to be at least 10 minutes away by car, so car ownership has to be that much cheaper which means the government has to actively keep car ownership affordable to win the next election. Even in France, a lot of rural communities depend on cars (off course, that might be the case in the Netherlands and I know that's the case in Belgium but the numbers are probably much fewer than in France), so an increase in fuel taxes led to the yellow vest protests in 2018 though the French would’ve still paid less than the Dutch for fuel.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by prakash_ajp

So, I would compare India more with the USA, because of the lack of a good quality public transportation largely in both the countries. Basically, you pay for everything and get nothing back. We pay high tax on cars, we pay road tax, we pay toll for the highways and get what? Roads filled with potholes and peppered with barricades at intersection of every village road. I don't want to sound like a rich brat, but having to slow down at every such place just because the government can't educate people how to merge/cross a highway in a safe manner is pathetic.

In the USA you hardly pay taxes. Income tax is low and VAT as well. And they make sure you understand all the time how much it is. In many states prices in shops would be shown without state taxes, and only at the cash register an addition 5 - 8% VAT would be added.

All American, irrespective of their political affiliation hate paying tax. And they expect little of their government.

A good example was when we got hit with a massive snow storm in Kansas City on Christmas night in 2009. For three days all the roads were kept clean of snow. We had snow plough and gritters coming through our road every other hour. After three days the council ran out of budget and all the snow plough and gritting stopped. It snowed for another 3 weeks! Nobody complained, because everybody knew if you want more snow ploughs, you will need to pay more council tax.

Americans hate money being spend on civil servants. If you compare the average DMV facility in the USA, compared to India, you might come to the conclusion the Americans are worse. They really believe you should not spend money on a decent office chair for a civil servant. They can sit on a crate, and they do. At one point in time, waiting time at the DMV for car registration / driver license was measured in days. Yes, you read that right, you would have to stay in line for several days! I know, I had to do it. Delhi was breeze to get my DL

Jeroen

In Delhi I took my theoretical driving test on a computer, multiple choice. In Kansas City they did not have a computer. Piece of paper and a pencil

[aniyo]

For once I am glad I bought Diesel over the petrol Nexon. Last time around I got 21 KMPL which was satisfying.

This government is not going anywhere. There is a solid plan to increase the LS seats basis population for the 2024 election and they will win big in UP and Bihar and most likely form the government again.

Government is doing dangerous stuff, they increased the prices of Steel very high and not allowing PSU steel makers to lower the official prices when the private companies are allowed to see at a lower rate.

Privatization of core sector is dangerous. We not only lose good PSU but also lose the knowledge of managing these industries. The problem is IAS runs everything, this needs to change.

As pointed by someone in previous post, government after government have failed to increase the formal economy and we have a whole generation of talent wasted.

Next year personal income tax of people earning more than 10L will increase for sure. I can already see that coming.