[Sanidhya mukund]

Ever since Maruti Suzuki introduced their Celerio with the Magneti Marelli sourced Automated manual transmission, AMT seems to have become the de facto choice for manufacturers to make automatic budget cars. While the price advantage offered by AMTs cannot be questioned, it is an equally well known fact that AMTs are far from perfect. They are jerky, confused and are now also proving to be unreliable. Almost all manufacturers that make AMTs seem to be having issues. Mahindra had catastrophic failures with the TUV300 AMT. their XUV300 AMT also seems to be suffering from some issues. Maruti AMTs suffer from juddering and premature clutch wear. Tata, Renault and Hyundai also suffer from reliability and drivability issues.

Related threads:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...-amt-woes.html (Maruti's AMT woes)

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...ty-issues.html (Tata Tiago/Tigor AMT: Driveability issues)

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...olve-them.html (TUV300 AMT problems & Mahindra's inability to solve them)

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...-kwid-amt.html (Gearbox issue in Renault Kwid AMT)

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techn...antro-amt.html (Reliability issues with my Hyundai Santro AMT)


Thus, it seems as if CVTs and conventional auto boxes are way better in terms of smoothness and reliability. The only advantage then, seems to be that AMTs are cheaper to buy and run. But if we look at some examples of cars in the 7-9 lakh range, the AMT variant seems to be nearly 50K more than the manual car with the same engine and trim level:







At the budget end of the market, the same story is repeated. For a car of the same spec, AMT seems to be costing nearly 40-50K more:




Now, when we look at the cheapest cars that come with non-AMT auto transmissions, the price difference seems to be 1-1.5 lakh for the same spec and engine:




When I looked at the prices from March 2014, the time when the first AMT hit the market, the price difference between a Celerio VXI and VXI AMT was about 40K. Back then, Hyundai offered a conventional auto box with the Grand i10. The price difference between Sportz variant and Sportz automatic was about 79K. (Image source: Autocar India March 2014 issue)




Going by the above, it is safe to assume that for an A or B segment car, a CVT or torque converter is going to be about 0.5-1.5 lakhs more expensive than an equivalent car with AMT. In EMI terms, this won’t be more than 1-3K more every month, but the advantages that you get with respect to smoothness, driveabilty and reliability seems to be well worth it and personally, I would be willing to spend that much more for a better gearbox.

My question to you is:

Would you spend more money to get a CVT or torque converter over an AMT? If yes, then how much more are you willing to pay?

[SoumenD]

Originally Posted by Sanidhya mukund

My question to you is:

Would you spend more money to get a CVT or torque converter over an AMT? If yes, then how much more are you willing to pay?

A resounding ‘YES’. 60-70k over AMT equivalent is fine with me. In EMI terms it’s nothing and I get a smooth and reliable gearbox.

Infact I already did. While purchasing new car in 2019 my non-negotiable criteria was an automatic and with a starting budget of 8L, AMTs were the only options. Didn’t like them at all as mine is a 1 car garage. So I can’t live with the headnod on daily basis. One option was i10 grand TC but its single digit FE numbers & small size drove me away. Increased budget to 10 and tried out nexon AMT which I absolutely loved except for the AMT transmission. Finally had to settle for Jazz CVT as it made sense for my requirement of spacious, reliable, smooth & marginally frugal option.

If we had Magnite/Kiger back then, would have been a strong contender but alas they weren’t

[Simhi]

Bhipians have already voted on their preference of automatic transmission in the following thread - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ou-prefer.html (Which type of Automatic Transmission do you prefer?)

So, AMT is least preferred but then factors such as affordability and availability of TC/CVT transmission in the model/variants come into the picture.

When I was looking for a new vehicle, one of the criteria was automatic with either TC or CVT transmission. The reason was that these technologies are well proven, reliable and smooth. I had i10 (sold now) with TC and now Yaris with CVT.

[sridhar24]

Its definitely a big YES for me.
In my personal experience AMT gearbox was way too crude in the shifts with all the jerkiness and that makes the driving experience painful. I do not know about the long term reliability aspect as well.

But I would be happy to pay the extra premium for a proper Torque converter box rather rather than settling in for an AMT version.
Or rather I would go for a manual version as i did with my Elite i20 as there was no automatic at that time.

[gkveda]

This is like pinching a sleeping baby and once it starts crying, give a chocolate to subside the crying.

Designing an over engineered technique for cost advantage, selling at premium in the name of cutting edge technology, and later because of its limitations, getting back to old technology and selling at premium again, in the name of robustness of old technology.

I don't agree with the price hike and reverting back to old technology (TC).

I would rather expect a recall on all AMT cars (I know I am asking for too much) which were sold earlier and fix the problems.

[roy_libran]

Voted No! It's now 8+ years and 1 lac+ kms, since I transitioned to Automatics. My first was the Ecosport with DCT which I had for 5.5 yrs and since then have a Nexon AMT.

Undoubtedly the DCT used to shift quicker and smoother, but the torque curve of that 1.5 litre NA engine wasn't as 'robust' as that of the Nexon 1.2 Turbo engine, which masks very well the slightly longer shift times of the AMT gearbox.

The other thing that I had to learn with automatics is to develop a keen sense of throttle modulation and engine response. I needed to do this with the Ford DCT to make sure I was nudging the gearbox to make a shift at just the right point, and I also need to do the same with the Nexon at which point the shifts become reasonably quick and jerk-free. With the Nexon I have probably driven a total of 50-100 kms in that stupid City mode. 80% of my driving is on Sport mode and the remainder on Eco mode when I am cruising on expressways.
It takes about a day or 2 to develop this modulation sense on any new car and after that it is just muscle memory.

Hence I voted No. I'd pick the cost saving, cheaper maintainability and reliability of an AMT over more complex AT gearboxes any day (if it's available)!

P.S. - I have also driven various CVT's, DSG's and TC's, and my opinion remains the same with respect to all of them.

[Rajeevraj]

Voted Yes. No doubt I will be willing to pay a premium for a better quality AT. Having said that, the engine the AT is mated to also matters. So in some cases a good engine can hide the deficiencies of an AMT, while a not too great engine can bring out the deficiencies of a regular TC, CVT or DSG.

So maybe some exceptions, but in general always ready to pay a premium for a good AT.

[Jaggu]

After owning an AMT in the family am not very sure if the extra money is really worth it for the pure bred auto's Vs AMT. Just took me a couple of hours behind the Ignis wheels to figure out when to lift off and to have a smooth shift. The car has crossed 18000 kms and running fine. Use Manual mode when one wants to make the driving more entertaining. In short, maybe I will pay about 25k more for a purebred auto, beyond that is not justified. Infact it is high time manufacturer removes the manual gearbox from vehicles and sell automatics or AMT instead

[RoadMonkey]

When I got my new car, my budget started at around 7L. I did not want to extend it too much and had almost finalised Tiago AMT. But I had reservations about AMT and found the shift time excessive for my liking when I TD'd it. Something just felt off. I thought I would not mind an AMT but I just couldn't connect to it. I connected with the Polo AT as soon as I drove it for the first time. It was a no brainer, I basically paid 3L extra for a good torque converter. (And a stonker of an engine)

Edit: And a Toyota AT box is supposed to be bulletproof when it comes to reliability and the AMTs have had their share of issues. So the trade off isn't similar to, say, a DCT.

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

After owning an AMT in the family am not very sure if the extra money is really worth it for the pure bred auto's Vs AMT. ... Infact it is high time manufacturer removes the manual gearbox from vehicles and sell automatics or AMT instead

Completely agree!
By the way the last bastion of the MT in the consumer segment is in applications that require wilful clutch slip. I can't think of anything else that an AMT cannot do that a MT can.

[Cyborg]

Originally Posted by Sanidhya mukund

Would you spend more money to get a CVT or torque converter over an AMT? If yes, then how much more are you willing to pay?

Absolutely YES, I wouldn’t mind spending more for a CVT or a torque converter automatic. Won’t quantify it money terms but it’s safe to say I will never buy an AMT car again.

I bought a Maruti Ignis Alpha AMT but had to sell it after a year or so as it was too irritating to drive, absolutely hated the jerky shifts of the AMT. Made a huge mistake as I though I could live with it after a couple of test drives but couldn’t manage in the long term. I also have a Civic AT which magnified the deficiencies of the AMT even further.

Loved the Ignis a lot otherwise as small city car and contrary to popular opinion loved the quirky looks too (front and rear).

Cheers

[TrackDay]

Definitely yes ! Unless one is really strained for each Rupee, why not spend an additional amount and get a proper auto box. I should applaud the Kiger/Magnite twins for bringing about the CVT in their line up ! On the lower end of the spectrum the Datsun has a CVT, but it is not a car that everyone wants. I have said this before several times, but I wont hesitate to say it again. Maruti if you are reading this, kindly do experiment and try to bring a CVT/TC in the S-Presso, Wagon R & Swift. I know this is a price sensitive segment, but do try it out. Maybe it could be revelation.

[Researcher]

Voted for a YES! This is what I have done in a couple of years back, moving the budget from 6 lacs to 10 lacs.

My way of selection:
1. Least budget for auto: AMT
2. Sedate/city driving with a petrol: CVT
3. Sedate/city driving with a diesel: TC (many options) or CVT (only Amaze)
4. Enthusiastic/highway driving with need for reliability: MT (if can drive) or TC
5. Enthusiastic/highway driving with appetite for risk: DCT

I had rejected the AMTs of Swift and Brezza autos for this exact reason and landed up with a Baleno CVT. A friend has a Celerio AMT (shuddering since a few days at around 21K kms) and if I was on a shoestring budget, maybe would have bought an AMT. But the seamless and predictable experience of CVTs is something I was willing to pay extra (1.04 lacs ex-showroom exact for the CVT Baleno) for as my parents have been users of CVTs in scooters since more than a couple of decades, starting with the Kinetic Honda ZX. From what I have observed, for inexperienced users (either never or seldom driven an automatic), the kickdown (pedal to the medal style in city especially) of all automatics apart from CVTs and the resulting surge does require some amount of anticipation.

In fact, after driving CVTs in city traffic, I have been quite impressed by the smoothness and the response is also adequate (not wow like TCs or manuals, or even AMTs in manual mode). Add to that the simple maintenance involving oil and filter changes for most reliable CVTs and TCs well into 6 digits on the odometer, it is going to be cheaper than the clutch replacement of the AMTs every 20-30K kms (as per my experience with the friend's AMT, which is taken care of very well).

Edit: Right now, over MTs, the premium is 50k for AMTs and 1 lac for proper ATs in most cases. But judging by the recent launches, ATs are now around 1.2-1.5 lacs more than MTs (was checking the autos of S-Cross and Brezza for a friend yesterday evening). So expect the AMTs to soon reach the 1 lac premium mark which ATs were holding a few years back.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by gkveda

...

I don't agree with the price hike and reverting back to old technology (TC).

I would rather expect a recall on all AMT cars (I know I am asking for too much) which were sold earlier and fix the problems.

Only problem is that most people will not want to pay for a TC mated to an AMT. I'm also guessing that fuel efficiency will not be as good as with a regular AMT.
The Mercedes-Benz Actros 4153 SLT truck has a TC mated to a MT /AMT. The 1954 Plymouth also had something similar. I doubt Maruti is going to spend a lot of money improving the AMT as they know that the market cares about "kitna deti hai" and not about performance and smoothness. For those who can afford it, they can upsell their TC AT and CVT equipped cars.

https://www.oemoffhighway.com/drivet...-transmissions

ZF offers the TC Tronic and TC Tronic HD transmissions for heavy trucks and crane trucks.

Combines the 12-speed AS Tronic with TC2 hydrodynamic converter clutch
Clutch permits input torque of up to 2,700 newton meters
Driver engages gears manually with a finger tip, or can rely on the drive program
TC Tronic HD developed to meet the requirements of engines with continuously increasing horsepower
AS Tronic with TC HD torque converter clutch
For trucks with a weight of 72 tons; designed for torques of up to 3,500 newton meters
Unlike TC Tronic, it's not equipped with a primary retarder but with a speed-dependent
secondary retarder, the ZF-Intarder

[headbanger]

Absolutely Yes. This is the only reason why Nexon is not parked in my garage.
Even if the choice is between Maruti tin cans, say Baleno CVT versus Dzire AMT, my pick will be Baleno always.