[Aaron:)]

Originally Posted by vinair

Says who?

Says the facts

Swift, ASEAN NCAP - 4 stars
https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=4318

Swift, Global NCAP (Indian market) - 2 stars
https://www.globalncap.org/safercarsforindia

Can we all please stop extrapolating ASEAN (and other) NCAP ratings to Indian cars? As long as the car is not tested in India, there’s no way to know the safety rating. And this goes not just for Suzuki/Toyota but for all companies.

[abhishek46]

I do understand, that changing sheet metal panels are expensive (for a stingy king like Toyota).

However, how hard can it be, to update at least the bumpers, grill, headlamps etc.?

Originally Posted by Aaron:)

Says the facts

Swift, ASEAN NCAP - 4 stars
https://aseancap.org/v2/?p=4318

Swift, Global NCAP (Indian market) - 2 stars
https://www.globalncap.org/safercarsforindia

Can we all please stop extrapolating ASEAN (and other) NCAP ratings to Indian cars? As long as the car is not tested in India, there’s no way to know the safety rating. And this goes not just for Suzuki/Toyota but for all companies.

100% Agree.
It is well known fact that Cars made for India, are 'cheap-ened' by almost all manufacturers, which include both Maruti & Hyundai.

[Lowflyer23]

Originally Posted by vinair

Fact, here it is - a mere 45 kilo in difference underscores the Indian variant?

Better and stronger materials don't necessarily have to be heavier. Talking about the differences, the Indian spec and European spec (and the Latin spec) of the Swift scoring different ratings proves it. Kindly watch the crash test videos on YouTube, I don't have the habit of providing each and everything to someone on a platter just for an unnecessary argument .

[racer_ash]

I think it's time Team BHP too follows the rebadging exercise carried out by manufacturers.

How about renaming the official Ciaz review thread to the official Ciaz and Belta whatever thread.

Preety sure next would be a rebadged Ignis. I guess it will be called Tilda.

[fordfreak]

Pretty appalled at Toyota's lack of effort. They have taken the meaning of 're-badge' a bit too literally. Apart from the logo, I don't think they've changed a single screw to differentiate the Belta from the Ciaz (same applies to the Baleno / Glanza). At least they changed the grille & bumper on the Urban Cruiser to differentiate it from the Vitara Brezza, so a bonus point to Toyota for that.

The Ciaz is a decent car. But Toyota touting it a 7 year old model with ZERO changes as the 'all new' Belta will be a very sad joke.

The Yaris was a good product, but Toyota killed it with their greedy pricing and stingy feature selection.

Had planned to swap my 2010 Altis for the next-gen Corolla Altis; then Toyota axed the Altis range in India. I looked at the Yaris as a possible option, whenever the time to change came. Now that is no longer an option too . I've decided to keep my old Altis till the time it is ready for the scrapyard.

At this rate, almost 40% of Toyota's product range is made of up of essentially Maruti Suzuki products. Not that they are awful, but come on Toyota!

[TT-S]

Re-badging is usually done by a manufacturer, when it wants to enter a lucrative segment, but does not have a product readily available and it would take significant time and effort to develop one ready to sell. Due to this, mostly mass market models from allies/other OEMs are re-badged and sold as a temporary/short term measure. There are several examples worldwide.

But when a manufacturer like Toyota is badge engineering an entire lineup of mass market cars from "Cost cutting specialist" Suzuki, it simply means they don't want to commit to the Indian market. Toyota does have the know-how to develop and sell mass market cars, but selling them at a good profit would require extensive cost cutting measures (while keeping the perceived Toyota quality, durability etc).

By doing badge engineering, Toyota doesn't need to spend much on R&D, and can easily exit the Indian market when the management thinks the future is bleak in India. They do have proper hybrid technology with which they could have captured the sub 15 Lakh segments, but is still hesitant to introduce it in mass market models.

Toyota sells the Yaris with 1.5L hybrid power-train elsewhere, and so is the Corolla available with a 1.8L + 2KWh battery as hybrid. Why not bring them to India?

[vsrivatsa]

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

Even the humble Etios was 4 star rated. The rebadged Brezza is another.

Originally Posted by vinair

Says who?

I believe we should stop extrapolating other NCAP Ratings with Cars sold in India and this applies not just for Maruti but for Toyota as well.

Etios having 4 stars should not let us make positive guesses on the Yaris.
And Toyota sells the rebadged Baleno as well which...we all know what it is...

Originally Posted by Aaron:)

Says the facts
Can we all please stop extrapolating ASEAN (and other) NCAP ratings to Indian cars? As long as the car is not tested in India, there’s no way to know the safety rating. And this goes not just for Suzuki/Toyota but for all companies.

Agree. Sadly none of the Sedans sold in India are GNCAP tested yet.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by TT-S

Toyota sells the Yaris with 1.5L hybrid power-train elsewhere, and so is the Corolla available with a 1.8L + 2KWh battery as hybrid. Why not bring them to India?

Because there is no evidence in the Indian market that suggests such a car will sell well. C segment is dominated by City, Ciaz, and Verna. Yaris was priced on par with these and sold very few. A Yaris hybrid obviously will have to be priced at least 2 lakhs above these cars. It is evident from the numbers that such a car will not even give break-even numbers. The D segment case is even more bleak.

In segments where Hyundai and Suzuki play, the only way to succeed is to develop products specifically for India. And even if they develop it, they may at best get 1/3rd of the share. If it is possible to get similar numbers through rebadging, why spend all the effort in developing a new car? Baleno and Urban cruiser have already proved that it is possible to increase volumes through rebadging. Toyota is making decisions based on numbers and our market is awarding them the numbers to support their theories.

[Black_Star]

Originally Posted by TT-S

By doing badge engineering, Toyota doesn't need to spend much on R&D, and can easily exit the Indian market when the management thinks the future is bleak in India. They do have proper hybrid technology with which they could have captured the sub 15 Lakh segments, but is still hesitant to introduce it in mass market models.

Toyota sells the Yaris with 1.5L hybrid power-train elsewhere, and so is the Corolla available with a 1.8L + 2KWh battery as hybrid. Why not bring them to India?

Tax

The answer is always Tax, India has one of the most ridiculous tax on cars especially on EV and Hybrid vehicles. While things have changed for EVs, Hybrids still have 43% (28% GST plus cess). The high taxes makes it difficult for Toyota to launch hybrids in India.


Please note most companies have such as Hyundai, Kia, Renault, VW and other have lot of EV and Hybrids in their global portfolio but because India is a price sensitive market and govt tax they have not launched them in India.

[CarNerd]

As one of the world's top carmaker, Toyota should be ashamed of itself for doing such idiotic things in India. What prevents it from investing and coming up with newer international models? Even countries like Indonesia, Phillipines have more models than us
If a newcomer like MG can come up with cars with latest features, what's the problem with Toyota? Can't they bring one decent proper Toyota model in the 8-16 lakh range? Instead, Toyota is busy thinking stupid names for Maruti cars. I hope Toyota goes the Ford way if it continues doing such ridiculous things.

[FrozeninTime]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

As one of the world's top carmaker, Toyota should be ashamed of itself for doing such idiotic things in India. What prevents it from investing and coming up with newer international models?
If .

Why blame manufacturers?
When people buy badge engineered products it gives confidence to marketing team to put forward such ridiculous products.
It started with VW amd Skoda now it reaching epic proportions with Toyota

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

Can't they bring one decent proper Toyota model in the 8-16 lakh range? Instead, Toyota is busy thinking stupid names for Maruti cars. I hope Toyota goes the Ford way if it continues doing such ridiculous things.

Our Gumment is reason number one! It's got sky high taxes. For a car worth 5 lakhs we pay almost double , rest goes to the same Gumment as taxes. Over and above we have insurance, life time road tax, RTO charges, etc. Basically the Gumment rakes in moolah like a local 'dadha' without providing anything for the buyer and protects the seller from out side competition by again by it's sky high taxes on imports. Add to that 'suit cases' involved in starting a business! A BMW 3 series worth most probably as much a Creta in the US goes for as much as double or more here. Just look at our neighbor: Pakistan you'll drool over the choices they have.

[CarNerd]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

Our Gumment is reason number one! It's got sky high taxes. For a car worth 5 lakhs we pay almost double , rest goes to the same Gumment as taxes. Over and above we have insurance, life time road tax, RTO charges, etc.

The Gumment is the same for all. Hyundai has Creta, Kia has Seltos, MG has Hector, Renault has Duster, Tata has Harrier, etc, What does Toyota have? Maruti?

My simple question is why can't Toyota design a proper compact SUV like others in the same price bracket? When smaller players like MG, Nissan, Renault are trying with newer models like Astor, Magnite, Kiger, What is the world's 2nd largest car maker doing? Removing Suzuki badge and putting its own?

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

Why blame manufacturers?
When people buy badge engineered products it gives confidence to marketing team to put forward such ridiculous products.
It started with VW amd Skoda now it reaching epic proportions with Toyota

IMHO, if one is really looking to buy a Maruti vehicle, but it's re-badged version is available at Toyota within 4~5k price difference he'll be tempted. Though Maruti's sales setup is not bad, their service setup is highly strained. At Toyota, such customer is going to get 5-star treatment w.r.t. offered at Maruti's overcrowded workshops. (not sure how much the customer be charged extra for this star service).

If overall ownership cost is increased only marginally, I find going for such re-badged products quite logical.

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by CarNerd

The Gumment is the same for all. Hyundai has Creta, Kia has Seltos, MG has Hector, Renault has Duster, Tata has Harrier, etc, What does Toyota have? Maruti?

My simple question is why can't Toyota design a proper compact SUV like others in the same price bracket? When smaller players like MG, Nissan, Renault are trying with newer models like Astor, Magnite, Kiger, What is the world's 2nd largest car maker doing? Removing Suzuki badge and putting its own?

May be there's no incentive for Toyota to try hard enough here in India. May be the margins after all things considered is razor thin and that margin keeps getting narrower as the car ages & competition catches up, with all the discounts kicking in...