[Theyota]

I do not understand the star status being assigned by some of the folks to him (no disrespect to him). Car designers are more like artists who design the shape of the car. They are not the ones that design the functionality and technology that goes into making a car.

The shape of the car can only turn the heads of a potential customer. But it is the product features, reliability, marketing, pricing, customer service and sales nework that brings in volumes. Many globally succesful cars are nothing in the looks department.

It takes a culture of accountability, quality, business acumen and consumer centricity in the overall organization over many years to build a succesfull product/business and not just a couple of star employees. Most of the guys who drive these kind of things do not have time to back pat themselves on Linkedin or news media.

[turbo]

Originally Posted by Theyota

I do not understand the star status being assigned by some of the folks to him (no disrespect to him). Car designers are more like artists who design the shape of the car. They are not the ones that design the functionality and technology that goes into making a car.

Agree and Disagree.

Yes, car designers design the car, and not the fit and finish. BUT
Car designers also design the interior of the car.

So, in this case, the dashboard kink where the silver line meets the left knee of the driver that makes the Harrier and the Safari un-driveable for anyone over 5'7 tall is a design decision that the designer took.

The decision to have the touchscreen jut-out of the dashboard, rather than be integrated in it is a design decision that the designer took.

That aircraft style hand-brake is a design decision that the designer took.

Choosing to have piano-black instead of faux-wood, or faun-carbon-fibre, or even matt black, is a design decision that the designer took.

Choosing white seats in the safari, instead of beige/brown is a design decision that the designer took.

And in my opinion, they are all questionable.

A designer designs BOTH the interior and the exterior of the car.
A designer does not do quality control.

Dont blame him for niggles in your Tata car, but call him out for bad-design decisions that he's made.

[lionell]

Originally Posted by vinair

Looking at the history of Mahindra acquisitions and where those companies stand today in its portfolio, I have my reservations on this talent acquisition from TATA! Don't see a bright future for Mahindra or Pratap from a design point of view!

Plus one to that. What are they going to build the 700 is almost there. The Thar is well, almost a copy. If they are planning a rejig of the lineup I really don’t see where he is going to be useful.

[MaserQ]

Mahindra have made a habit of making bad business decisions. However, this move has success written all over it. It's going to take at least a couple of years for Pratap Bose to weave his magic. But rest assured, it will be worth the wait.

[Theyota]

Originally Posted by turbo

Agree and Disagree.

Yes, car designers design the car, and not the fit and finish. BUT
Car designers also design the interior of the car.

Yes, you are right about aesthetics design being as well done by industrial designers. But almost always these are guys who specialize in the interiors and not the same as the guy who did the outside profile. A lot of times interiors design is outsource.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by zalaps

Now, Pratap will face toughest challenge of his life. How to remove that walrus tooth from Mahindra Grille!

He almost got rid of Tata's signature 'Humanity' grill and the 'Christmas tree' tail lights. So I would believe he would do something about Mahindra's trademark grill

[sureshkishore]

In my experience, stalwarts in design/creative division are quite touchy, egoistic and at times, irrational.
Have observed successful organisations keep their creative brains insulated from their accountants and sales guys, I guess they aren't generally good with numbers.

So I don't think Mr Bose was ever in the consideration set for a role as MD.
Design is a collective effort but the basic language is set be the boss. So this change at the top could start a departure in the design language. Tata Motors is a dynamic organisation which had made made significant leaps in-terms of product design and quality improvement.
With the change I strongly believe that Tata Motors would refresh itself even faster. Really looking forward to the exciting times ahead. More interesting would be the change he would bring about at Mahindra (i.e if he joins there )
Bose joining Mahindra will be a positive for the company as they really could use some finesse in their products. KUV TUV we're decent products but let down by below par design IMHO. Promising times ahead!

[varunanb]

Originally Posted by Theyota

Car designers are more like artists who design the shape of the car. They are not the ones that design the functionality and technology that goes into making a car.

I would like to understand, what made you think a car designer is not responsible for anything other than styling.

As a head of design, the person is responsible for styling, performance of the parts, including how they are put together. Styling, Engineering, testing, prototype development and in most companies, certifications too are all responsibility of a design head.

Of course, its a team job, so the credit is to the team. I agree, Idolising an person is not the right way to encourage an employee.

[gururajrv]

It’s surely a loss to Tata but I hope they find someone equally good as Mr Pratap Bose.

But we can expect Headlights to move down for future Mahindra range of products (just kidding)

[Theyota]

Originally Posted by varunanb

I would like to understand, what made you think a car designer is not responsible for anything other than styling.

I assume you do not understand how cars are or other products (e.g. a fridge) developed. Typically there are two design teams. The first team is a handful of “industrial designers” who are more like artists. They sketch and clay model the shape of the car. When they come up with a sketch or a model, many a times there are shapes that are not manufacturable. These guys have nothing to do with drive train, electrical systems or any other functional part of the car. In many companies they are part of marketing organization. Pratap Bose falls in this category of designers. The second group of designers are engineers (few hundreds to a thousand) who convert the given shape design into manufacturable parts, develop and integrate all the functional systems, etc. The second group is part of R&D + Manufacturing organizations. The first group has education from schools like National Institute of Design or JJ School of Applied Arts and the second group has education from your friendly neighborhood engineering college.

[vivekgk]

Tata's loss and Mahindra's gain.

As I understand it, the designers come up with a variety of concepts for every project, and the final one is what gets selected by the top management. Even if the designer makes a bad decision, like say the central console fouling with tall drivers' knees, or a seat design that looks awesome but lacks proper support, these decisions have to be vetted properly by the engineers and appropriate corrections and updates made to the final spec.

But their greatest contribution to the project is the impact that their designs make. When you look at a Harrier, your first impression isn't that it's got bad ergonomics for tall people. Your first impression is the stance and the general lines of the design. In that aspect, Pratap Bose got it right most of the time. It's just that Tata Motors takes so long to go from concept to launch, that some elements look outdated at launch until they're fixed in a facelift/update the next time. Or, they compromise on the execution.

Case in Point: The H5X sported LED headlamps, but the Harrier got run of the mill halogen projectors, same as what you got in a sub 10 lac car. You get the same lights for every variant. Meanwhile the Creta was launched with the futuristic looking full LED triple element headlamps, like what the H5X concept had. Another mind boggling change was the decision to substitute the H5X's gorgeous 19 inch black machined alloys with the most outdated, mundane silver 17 inchers you could find in the market. Keep in mind that the Hexa was launched in 2017 with black machined 18 inch wheels. And for a sporty, youthful vehicle, the only sporty shade on offer was the orange. All other shades on offer were "Uncle" colours, (gold, white, grey, silver). They also managed to offer it in a weird 5x108 PCD that is shared with the LR Freelander, assuring that it's not easy to find good aftermarket alloys. The lower variants come with 16 inch wheels with wheel caps from the Nexon, only without the nice black highlights that made the Nexon XM wheels look classy. This, from the guys who introduced structured, styled steel wheels on the 2006 Safari Dicor and the Hexa. To be fair, the 2021 Safari XM steel wheels look good, but they are not available on the Harrier, just because.

I'm 95% sure that it wasn't Bose that made those concessions, but the bean-counters. Maybe, they saved 25k per vehicle (pre-tax) by leaving out the machined look, and the LED headlamps, and not offering a dual tone option or a wider colour palette. I'm sure that more than 25K customers were driven away to buy the Creta instead because it looked more contemporary, feature-wise. Tata has made an art out of offering half-baked products at launch, and then patching it up with an upgrade after they've already half-killed the brand-name and driven away the customer-base.

Before you tag me as a Tata hater, consider that I owned a Tata for 7 years, and waited for 6 months for a hint about a Nexon launch date before giving in and buying the Ecosport. I'm still scouring OLX for a good Hexa/Harrier AT to upgrade to, and I've been glued to the Altroz/Buzzard threads for months before launches.

I sincerely hope that having Bose at Mahindra will get us better vehicles, less quirly and more classy. He was able to make Tata Motors finally stop putting the same dread inspiring smiley grille on every product (Vista, Manza, Aria, Storme (to an extent) and teach them and Indian vloggers and journos terms like "humanity line". Here's hoping he can be the dentist who finally does a root canal and remove the Walrus tooth that has been stuck on every Mahindra for a decade, and tell them that not every vehicle they make needs to trace back to the 7 slat grille. All the Best, Mr. Bose!!

[kiku007]

Note: Don't get into the factual accuracy and let's assume that this conversation was entirely fictitious.

I dread to imagine the outcome of combining Pratap Bose's ivory tower high ego and Mahindra's horrendous design flair.

Due credit to Pratap for providing a positive makeover to Tata's design. The vehicles look more upmarket/European so to speak. Having said that, I personally think he's overrated. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it's no coincidence that Tata's design language was vastly improved after the JLR acquisition.

If only Pratap had delivered the new age Tata Safari like the Ford Bronco or the LR Defender then he could have talked about leaving a legacy behind but sorry that's not the case.

With respect to Mahindra, what's wrong with them? They retrenched people from Pininfarina but hired Pratap Bose and setup a studio in the U.K?! For what? What's the business case? What's the purpose of the division they setup in Mahindra City World City near Chennai?

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Attachment 2154032

Note: Don't get into the factual accuracy and let's assume that this conversation was entirely fictitious.

It was actually attributed to Bernard Shaw as well. If you like to read, here's a link to the whole beauty and brains eugenics quote by quoteinvestigator.com

I dread to imagine the outcome of combining Pratap Bose's ivory tower high ego and Mahindra's horrendous design flair.

That would be the worst case scenario. But Mahindra has been mending their ways of late. From the days when Shri Behram Dhabar had to work on the Thar in secret, the company has come a long way. On the other hand, Behram Ji's work at Tata seems to have been lost with him. There were prototypes of a SWB Xenon 4WD running at several rallies, but Tata seems to have shifted solely to 2WD monocoque vehicles. Let's hope that doesn't happen to Mahindra, the last haven for affordable off roaders remaining in India.

Due credit to Pratap for providing a positive makeover to Tata's design. The vehicles look more upmarket/European so to speak. Having said that, I personally think he's overrated. Please correct me if I'm wrong but it's no coincidence that Tata's design language was vastly improved after the JLR acquisition.

True. The ConnectNext tech came soon after the acquisition, and they vastly improved their existing line of vehicles. Even the humble Indica, Indigo and Sumo which were on sale at the time got feature improvements like improved gauge clusters, easy shift gearboxes, and design improvements like the JLR inspired alloys in the Indigo eCS. Even though these vehicles were stopped soon after, they made for a much improved ownership experience, and the CR4 engined Indica was a hoot to drive, with no turbo lag and good refinement. Even the Sumo is kind of nice to drive, considering the segment it was in. It was surprisingly easy to drive in the city, and the 3L CR4 diesel was torquey. I am a fan of the Sumo's paper fold design language, and the last Sumo Golds emphasised the squarish nature very well, IMO

If only Pratap had delivered the new age Tata Safari like the Ford Bronco or the LR Defender then he could have talked about leaving a legacy behind but sorry that's not the case.

Also agree. Tata had an opportunity to counter the Thar brand with the Safari. Although the majority of the Safaris sold were 2WD and mostly used for grand touring rather than off roading, the ads and the optional 4WD gave it the image of a "go anywhere in comfort" vehicle. Let's hope they have something good in store for the upcoming Sierra revival.

[BoneCollector]

Something wrong at Tata?

Rajesh Nair

Tata Motors CV business HR head Rajesh Nair has called it quits after serving the CV maker for 28 years. Nair was leading business HR for commercial vehicles, sales and marketing, customer care, and spare parts verticals.

Nair had joined the firm as a management trainee in the international business division, has held several leadership positions that include managing Safari and Sumo brands, heading sales and service for the western region, among others, in his almost three decades stint.

[AMG Power]

Credit the Jaguar - Land Rover team for all the new designs such as the Tiago, Hexa, Harrier to the new Safari (yikes the name puts me off).

Pratap Bose would have designed the Tata Indica, Sumo and the old Safari. If you look close enough you can spot the similarities - grotesque, disproportionate and ugly as hell.

He’s lucky to have got the UK guys to come over and design the rest of the cars like they’ve redone the suspension and handling.

Don’t for a minute fool yourself that he did the Harrier or other cars. Given his designing inclinations, JLR must have locked him out of the room till they finished.

But Tata works like a Govt and being the HOD his signature was needed to sign off the car into production so he got the credit.

Here’s the twist to this tale. The only other manufacturer whose cars are uglier than erstwhile Tata cars are current Mahindras (except for a certain carbon copy).

You can do anything to their cars like putting a big blue light on the bonnet and it will look better than it does now. So life should be easy for Bose.