[Electromotive]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

The only thing they can do is to tinker with their engines and remove a spar or beam from their Heartect architecture to eke out an extra kmpl or so...unless MSIL brings in strong hybrid options , it will continue to decline...I think someone like TML can and perhaps already HAS changed the game

Originally Posted by Desi Dybuk

The onus to change the brand value lies with the brand itself. Maruti can change it's brand image if it puts in the required effort & hardwork. Just take a look at Tata for inspiration...

You are assuming MS isn't capable of change, that they are a one trick pony whose USP is only mileage (aka kinta deti hai).You are not giving them credit where it's due.
You don't get to 50% market share by pretending to know better than the market itself; that's the mistake Ford made.

If now the market is willing to pay for more premium interiors, better build quality and more gadetry, MS will willingly cater. Given the way fuel prices are headed, Maruti's USP of mileage and value still stands strong.

As for MS being lazy and lacking innovation, I argue that MS is fully cognizant of the threat posed by BEVs. They are already investing in a battery plant. They have also tested EVs like the electric Wagon R and I am pretty sure the engineers at Suzuki are busy coming up with new EVs. So yes, they have plans for EVs in the future they are just waiting for the market and EV tech to mature a bit before they swoop in.

As for TML, I cannot, in good faith, ever recommend a TaMo vehicle. TaMo is run more like a bureaucracy than even MSIL. Sure, Tata now makes better vehicles than they used to but the build quality and ownership experience is far worse than MS, just search this forum if you need proof.

[fhdowntheline]

As pointed out by others, Maruti has been riding on its reputation of the past years when Suzuki had a say in the automotive technology landscape of Asia and some parts of the Rest of the world. That is no longer there. Statistically speaking, Maruti at one point of time had over 60 % of the market especially when SX4 and Dzire (4m plus) were prominent options and the cross-over was yet to make its presence. There too, Maruti came up with S-Cross which never caught the imagination of people the way a Duster and later the Creta did. Only the Vitara Brezza helped ensure that Maruti wasnt forgotten in the crossover/CSUV market.

In the sub-10 lac segment, Maruti hasn't exactly annihilated its rivals. The likes of Kwid, Tiago, Grand i10 and i20 do have steady sales . In time, the market share for premium hatchbacks , I daresay, will decline as cars like the Punch come up ahead.
Most importantly, the assumption is that there will always be a big chunk of first time buyers which will be added every year in the Indian economy. As the demographics start to mature, the meat of the market will increasingly shift up the value chain. Add to that are the various alternative energy and mobility options that will come up in the near future.
Regarding TML, I think people who are buying the Tiago/Tigor/Nexon are fairly satisfied customers in general, and TML has gotten over the hump of being a "taxi" user's choice. From hereon, it can only go up, provided it continues its focus on better tech and sets safety and comfort standards.

[DriveOnceMore]

I have not gone through the whole thread but still wanted to contribute my 2 cents here.
In my honest opinion, in sub-15 lakh Rs. segment MSIL (Nexa + Arena) has it all covered very well.
From Alto to S-cross / Brezza at each 30-50K price change there is one MSIL offering available.
People who wants MSIL car will always buy MSIL car and choice will be limited to model only (not the brand). So they don't have to worry about that.
Now every car in their portfolio is segment leader and they are upgrading each one of them on regular intervals so I don't see any issues in it.

Once Breza and Ciaz moves to next generation I don't see any necessity of having another model in portfolio.
All they can focus now is on powertrain i.e. inclusion of diesel / EV.

[GeeTee TSI]

I hate Maruti for their condescending take on what the Indian customer needs. But I would grudgingly admit that there a lot of buyers who are not auto enthusiasts and their needs are simple - cheap to buy and cheap to run. Their target customers appreciate these traits over others, and will continue to do so in India (until our per capita income allows for more people to buy better cars).

While agreeing on a personal level with the general sentiments on this thread on Maruti's focus (or the lack of it) on technology, safety, performance; cars like the Swift, Baleno or S-Cross have their own USPs (and worthy of recommendation), just stick to manual transmission and you are less likely to get an inferiority complex

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by GTO

- Poor R&D capability. Truth is, Maruti doesn't know how to build a class-leading modern engine, AT gearbox or premium product.

Originally Posted by Everlearner

Maruti's R&D budget should be the lowest in industry.

Originally Posted by ABHI_1512

R&D is their achilles heels and that’s why they joined hands with Toyota.

Originally Posted by Bhupesh_2628

Possible reasons could be:
R&D...

I'm curious about the perceived lack of research & development facilities by Maruti, amongst many of our members here. Their 600 acre campus (also see this article: https://autotechreview.com/technolog...ntre-in-rohtak) in Rohtak is perhaps one of the largest of any automotive company in India, but it seems to be quite a hush-hush operation. How is it that very few people have heard of it, and even lesser numbers (including MSIL employees) have ever been inside it?

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

I'm curious about the perceived lack of research & development facilities by Maruti, amongst many of our members here. Their 600 acre campus (also see this article: https://autotechreview.com/technolog...ntre-in-rohtak) in Rohtak is perhaps one of the largest of any automotive company in India, but it seems to be quite a hush-hush operation. How is it that very few people have heard of it, and even lesser numbers (including MSIL employees) have ever been inside it?

From evidence seen so far it's simply to benefit from the sizeable tax deductions by using Indian government's (R&D) expenditure tax credits and incentives.

They are currently doing some cutting edge research on vinyl stickers as well as weight reduction. MSIL are world leaders in both sciences!


DISCLAIMER: I'm a staunch Maruti critic.

[Mohitkumaar]

Just one point, the comparison between Nokia and Maruti is a bit misplaced! The situation and the role of fuel can not be compared to what Nokia faced, which is a paradigm shift in software. The situation is very different.

[antz.bin]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

Perhaps not many in this forum share this view of mine, but I am uncomfortable having a CNG tank in a car, where there is potential for leakage, fire and perhaps susceptible to vagaries of hot weather, not to mention degradation of performance and long term wear and tear on the engine. So it had either be a proper fuel like petrol/diesel or hybrid like Camry or a pure EV. I would have liked the Govt and manufacturers to pursue option 2 (Camry like hybrids) for the forseable future, instead of wasting agricultural resources on producing ethanol.

Well I am against CNG as well. We have 3 diesels and a Petrol car in the family. CNG just makes your car boot smaller. A sub 4-m sedan with CNG (say, Dzire) has a boot space smaller than the Hatchback it is based on (Swift). Do people buying CNG cars consider this extra cost?

The reason for my post was to look at it from the perspective of Maruti Suzuki. I was trying to make sense of how their thought process might be working. And if there is some parallel between them and my earlier post, it kind of makes some sense.

Cabs with CNG routinely run for lakhs of km. So the extra engine wear and tear may or may not be a valid argument. Petrol is just as energy dense and inflammable as CNG, if not more. We trust Factory fit petrol tanks, even if they are made of plastic (like in some Marutis to save 'weight') just fine.

Hybrids are a non starter. Good for rich countries with a lot of money. The target audience of Maruti Suzuki does not have that money. Hybrids require twice the hardware for 50% benefits. It's easier and cheaper to just go all in on BEVs like Tata has done.

From where I see it, Tata bet on BS6 diesels for the near term and BEVs for the long term. BS6 diesels have a short shelf life.. probably the reason why Ford, who had a similar strategy, just found it easier to just quit. Tata, it seems, needs to double down on its i-Turbo engines if they want to survive the next set of govt regulations.

Maruti bet on BS6 CNG in the short term and Toyota in the long term. I doubt Suzuki has any EVs for sale anywhere in the world.

Toyota/Honda bet on Hybrids in the short term and FCEVs in the long term. Their long term bets have failed already and they have had to move to BEVs.

Hyundai/VW/Nissan/Renault actually did quite well for themselves with efficient Turbo Petrols for now and BEVs for the future.

The Indian car scene is headed for a major shake up in the next couple of years. Exciting (Diesel free) times ahead!

[Vijay T]

My take on the subject
Maruti is sleeping because it can afford to.
They have winner in almost all segments upto 15 lacs.So they dont bother.Almost always 8 out of top 10 selling car is Maruti.
Diesel myth if i can say is busted by their stellar performance even without diesel in past few years after leaving Fiat engines.
Most of all, there are very few enthusiasts read BHPians in country who will put their money on Maruti. So all the more reason for Maruti to slumber.

[Akshay6988]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

As for TML, I cannot, in good faith, ever recommend a TaMo vehicle. TaMo is run more like a bureaucracy than even MSIL. Sure, Tata now makes better vehicles than they used to but the build quality and ownership experience is far worse than MS, just search this forum if you need proof.

Sir, with all due respect, I think you need to see this thread (Deteriorating quality of interior parts in Maruti-Suzuki cars!) then.

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by SS-Traveller

How is it that very few people have heard of it, and even lesser numbers (including MSIL employees) have ever been inside it?

You have already answered the question you asked Sir, this hush hush affair is the bane in actuality. Despite setting up the facility, a testing track inside the campus is all that is known to the outside world !! Nobody knows whether the supposed campus and the additional money allocated is already in use or not. Also, last known, the R&D facility has been shut down since March 2020, just months after the facility is supposed to be completed, at least that is what I know. If anybody else knows about the latest status, I would be happy to be corrected.

On one hand, this was the facility which should have been the cornerstone for their next onslaught of cars in India but instead till now, it has turned out to be a damp squib. So, obviously some form of sorcery is involved here in order to gain from some tax incentives as well, again, I might be wrong but that’s what I can make of at this point of time. Nothing credible has come out of the research for now though and hence the doubts !!

[theabstractmind]

Originally Posted by Akshay6988

Sir, with all due respect, I think you need to see this thread (Deteriorating quality of interior parts in Maruti-Suzuki cars!) then.

Believe me when I say this. A new swift feels more flimsy than my erstwhile rides - Nano and Kwid.

[headbanger]

While I wish the newer manufacturers and newer cars like Punch to succeed, Maruti can afford to state "Been there, seen that" with a smirk. The fact is that Maruti still towers over other manufacturers all combined in India and there are little signs of anybody challenging them in short to medium term. How many cars have dented the Maruti numbers in a big way in last 5 years? The trait has been that every new car in sub 15L category has either created a niche for itself or cannibalized any other manufacturers cart. But the numbers of Maruti have been head and shoulders above.

Just add safety to Maruti cars and see how the perception changes even for our tribe in the forum.

Like it or not, they understand the pulse of India unlike any other manufacturer. The only potential to break this iron fist is how electric mobility pans out for them.

[RijuC]

I guess MSIL main control is by japanese management.

My view is little off-topic here.

Of late, most of the Japanese big companies/ corporations are not doing great. Earlier we used swear by Japanese brands, japanese products and technologies, innovations. But recently we could see they are lacking in all fronts. Except the superb home air conditioning machines, they are loosing in every front, either hiving off products line up/ business verticals or just shutting down! Remember we all had a sony Walkman, then sony mobiles, some excellent laptops with HDD having drop off protection (20 years ago they had it!!), TV, appliances, top end semiconductor technology, bullet proof reliable cars and reliable industrial machineries. Now what is the scenario? I guess it is due to their complacency, lack of long term strategy or more importantly lack of dynamism in strategy making in this ever changing business scenario, and extreme bureaucracy in their daily operations.

And all these symptoms, cause and effects seem to be present in MSIL's business and strategies in present time. I also have few MSIL shares and never could imagine the share price of MSIL will remain under stess for such a long time, whereas TaMo was trading today at 378+ from my buying price of 69!!

[v1p3r]

I think it's hilarious that we're sitting and criticising a company that has managed to hold 50+% of market share for over 2 decades in the face of better funded international competition with better tech.

Maruti sells nearly 20% more cars in India than VW, BMW, and Mercedes do in Germany, combined! Germany is a larger car market than India.

The next largest car market in the world, after India at #5, is Brazil. Again, Maruti sells nearly 20% more than the top 3 selling Brazilian manufacturers, combined!

Hell, Toyota barely sells 20% more cars in China than Maruti does in India, and the Chinese market is nearly 8x larger!
Source

The sheer scale of dominance that Maruti has in the Indian market is something the others can only dream of. Hyundai has had 25 years in India and isn't even a third of Maruti's size yet, despite having a more eager and enabled international parent.

As a forum of English speaking and heavily urban enthusiasts, we tend to concentrate on newer features, more power, and a bunch of other things that are absolutely irrelevant to most buyers in this country, who tend to be middle class, first time, often in Tier 2+ towns. They want something reliable, cheap, and frugal. No one wants the horror stories of a badly serviced Euro, or an American car whose makers have fled. In the end, everyone says:
Nahi yaar, Maruti hi sahi hai.

Originally Posted by GTO

Added this to the opening post.

Not just us car enthusiasts, even the markets appear to be disappointed in Maruti. Compare Maruti's share price performance to the NIFTY 50. Especially look at the contrast in the recent years

Rush, you're comparing apples to oranges. The auto sector has a 5% weightage in the NIFTY 50, while finserv has 40% and IT and energy have 15% each, from memory. Even in NIFTY Auto, the gain has been about 7% over the last 5 years, while MSIL has risen over 30%. It's outperformed its industry by much more than 400%!