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Old 22nd October 2021, 12:01   #31
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

This gap has been open for some time now but I am not hopeful of them anymore.
They've started cost cutting on the Indian models to maximize profits and don't seem to be interested much.
What I can see is the eventual end of Jazz and WR-V's production and then they basically have to decide what to do next and I am thinking more on the lines of Ford.

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Originally Posted by Dry Ice View Post
I doubt they have any appetite for a battle with anyone.
Perfectly put, IMO they've already given up on India, just trundling along on Amaze and City, not sure how long they would hang on for.

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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
1. Even internationally, Honda is stuck doing "more of the same thing" (YAWN) and nothing new.
2. Honda India was the top player in each segment it had a presence in with the City, Civic, Accord & CR-V all being either the no.1 or no.2 in their respective categories.
3. Not a single standout product, no game-changing tech, not one brave & aggressive move.
1. They've launched new iterations of existing models elsewhere like the latest BR-V in Indonesia and other markets but it uses the 1.5 iVTEC which doesn't make a lot of sense in a SUV application. No dedicated effort. IIRC they've replaced the Jazz with the City hatchback so that ends their dedicated hatchback portfolio.

2. This is particularly sad, they had a proper evolution ladder. Personally I liked Hondas over Toyotas based on their styling and engine performance, of course looking at the specs and reading reviews.
Just sitting inside the 8th gen Civic's "cockpit"(since we could not call it a dashboard) at a showroom had blew us away and it shot up to the top in our desirability charts.
IMO when college kids drool over and aspire to own your car that's the one of the greatest signs for the car and company since they would become buyers in 4-5 years.

3. Last I hoped for something truly revolutionary from Honda was the FCX but even with focus being on the shift to alternate sources that still doesn't make headlines!

Honestly I am more sad than disappointed at Honda's future, not just in India.

Last edited by shancz : 22nd October 2021 at 12:03. Reason: formatting
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Old 22nd October 2021, 12:06   #32
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

I think Honda is in some sort of Hotel California, they want to check out but not leave! I still see new Amaze, WR-V and City cars being registered, so they think they can still sell some cars. They also don't want to shut their dealerships and service centers in the hope of coming back some day (either alone or with a partner).

If the company is not making any profits, no management will be left to sleep on the job (usually). Complacency and the mindset of many Indians thinking that "Honda is a safe bet" is what is keeping the company afloat!
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Old 22nd October 2021, 13:21   #33
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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Would that also not finish off their 2-wheeler business?


Most likely outcome. Better to replace the management then.

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Sorry, couldn't comprehend what you meant by this. How would the premium pricing reduce desirability? For most Indian households, a car is a status symbol- the costlier, the better.
If you have looked at the pricing at launch, for example, the Jazz, was overpriced for the product it was. It failed in the first iteration. The cost-corrected version did not find great success.

The same logic goes for their 150+cc bikes. Overpriced and not VFM.

Every product, however well built has a price to justify the quality. Honda has a knack for overpricing by a good 15 to 20%.

Premium pricing cannot be without the VFM tag in India. Most people cannot buy a premium product.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 15:05   #34
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain View Post
This GNCAP rating was for the Africa spec Amaze. The car was made in India, but was not the India spec model. The result cannot be just extrapolated.

The GNCAP certificate mentions the carís weight to be 1173kg. The India spec Amaze weighs 905-934kg as per the brochure.
Very true. However, it's also a fact that Africa spec i20, Ignis, Kwid etc. earned less stars and had unstable bodyshell integrity. Results cannot be extrapolated but perhaps Honda can be given the benefit of doubt until proven guilty.

Regarding the weight, please be mindful that crash test weight is not the same as kerb weight. For example, the 2-star rated Swift had crash test weight of 1079 kg but its kerb weight is 875-905kg as per the brochure.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 16:03   #35
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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If Honda wanted to do it, they probably would have. Incompetent management and undesirable products are not a good combination to dominate anything leave alone the hyper competitive and sensitive Indian auto market.

Honda day on day is looking more like a lost cause. Neither is their new design language attractive nor are they offering anything unique to the market.
Which is sad, considering they have some of the world's most solid, reliable, highly capable engine and drivetrain technologies. It makes even less sense - considering how Toyota - another staid, ultra conservative, giant Japanese corporation - could think its traditional thinking process and yet - be an early mover in hybrid (Prius) and follow that up with an EVEN BETTER hybrid - Rav4 for the Western markets. Honda seems asleep with a half hearted Clarity / C-RV / Accord hybrids which are essentially add-ons on an existing drivetrain.

Clarity could have made a splash but its priced US$ 7,000 ABOVE Rav4.

One wonders what is going at Honda HQ at Minato City.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 17:36   #36
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Default Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

Dominate?

Well, I wouldn't be surprised if Honda pack their bags from India in a year or two, unless or until they launch competitive products in tall boy segment.

They are surviving in a dying segment, where customers are moving towards SUV segment.

I can't see much Honda's on the road except city and some amazes.

Creta rival is a good 2-3 year away, but with Honda India accumalting losses every passing year, not sure how they'll operate in our highly competitive and tax burdened market.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 18:08   #37
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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Originally Posted by sridharj77 View Post
Complacency and the mindset of many Indians thinking that "Honda is a safe bet" is what is keeping the company afloat!
Why should customers be blamed for spending their hard earned money on a tried & tested brand! I bought Honda City this month and by all accounts it is more reliable and fuel efficient than the newest kids in the town eg Astor, Kushaq, Taigun etc. besides being cheaper and more readily available.
Not all customers want to risk their bets on "nouveau" brands or tech because no one will else will come to compensate if these bets fail.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 18:38   #38
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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Originally Posted by Mafia View Post



Every product, however well built has a price to justify the quality. Honda has a knack for overpricing by a good 15 to 20%.

Premium pricing cannot be without the VFM tag in India. Most people cannot buy a premium product.
This is a problem faced by every manufacturer who wants to produce and sell quality products especially in India. Many times improvement in quality is not proportionally related to the costing of that improvement and also this improvement in quality is visible only after an X numbers of years has passed. Thus these manufacturers can not sell their products competitively because customers can not know this improved quality at the time of purchase.
In recent times due to increased globalization MNCs have to compete at a global scale to survive and so all MNCs are almost turning into clones of each other selling products of almost same quality.
That is why we are seeing in general a decline in durability of white goods of even Top manufacturers like Germans or Japanese manufacturers. Only very rare brands like Miele remain who do not compromise on quality.
Thus as someone who wants to buy quality products feels disappointed when even customers want to turn Toyota or Honda into some kind of Korean or Chinese manufacturer. They are already facing the heat of global competition to further downgrade quality.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 19:20   #39
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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Now, I've been really curious about the applicability of the Amaze's rating for the Indian market, so I contacted Mr Alejandro Furas of Global NCAP
I have nothing much to say about the mainstream topic of this thread about Honda bringing all those products to India which I am sure they won't anytime soon in the near future. And its normal to see these kind of Wishlist threads on Team-BHP regularly as well. We all have a Honda hangover...

Very impressed that you actually emailed the GNCAP guy and he responded back as well Thanks for sharing.

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This results in no change in mass, which is why using kerb masses for crash performance may be a dangerous practice today.
Again, a very important take-away form your post. Most of us fall into this trap of comparing kerb weights.
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Old 22nd October 2021, 19:48   #40
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

I for one miss the Honda of old who used to bring out radical updates to their models having some of the most drool worthy models in their lineup. Take the city for example. The 5th Gen( All new Honda City ) was the last radical redesign with a completely different body shape. Every generation of the city till this looked different from the previous and I loved that about the brand. Now it's all small nips and tucks here and there. I still see the 5th gen city in the 2021 model. The Honda CR-V, Accord, Civic are all examples of this!
I think Honda should do a Skoda here with quality Sedans and SUVs ( excluding Kushaq) which are well built and desirable. It'll break my heart to see Honda leave the country as well, but seeing how lightly they are taking our market, I believe it is bound to happen. The Honda showroom at Trivandrum is Empty every time I drive past it with Test Drive Hyundais parked in it's parking lot lol. Please get your act together, Honda. Start with some nice sedans, please? *wishes for the civic to relaunch*

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Old 22nd October 2021, 20:55   #41
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

Forget getting aggressive in India when they just shut down a factory and discontinued 2 of their most prestigious offerings. They entered the mass market with Brio and we can't say they failed but they didn't follow it up. They've launched new gen Jazz in international market but it'll not be launched in India. Launching the City hatch seems unrealistic here and they don't have any other product in the pipeline. HRV if launched at right price and engine could have been a success but I think Honda isn't interested in investing in India anymore just like Toyota. They are happy selling City and Amaze as long as they can and then may be they'll simply leave or have a minimal presence with a JV partner. Forget becoming number 1, the once prestigious brand that used to command premium is hardly relevant anymore.

Everyone blames our taxes but I think our herd mentality and love for bling is equally responsible for the discontinuation of Ford and may be Honda, Nissan etc in coming years. It's not that Maruti has launched many great cars with futuristic technology or that Ford, Honda were any less reliable or expensive to maintain than a Maruti (VW/Skoda can take that blame). Our market didn't give them enough volumes compared to what Maruti got from hideous cars like Estilo, Ritz, Eeco or even Espresso today (no offense to owners). Naturally they couldn't convince their global HQ to invest more in India.

Last edited by Carpainter : 22nd October 2021 at 20:57.
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Old 23rd October 2021, 00:34   #42
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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Originally Posted by YashD View Post
The problem is "MONEY", Honda already has products in other ASEAN markets which are relevant models to the Indian Automotive market. For reference, we will take the Indonesian market which is of extreme importance for Honda.
I always look at the Indonesian offerings from Honda and wonder why they can't create an India-spec version of those models.

The Kia Carnival has shown there is an appetite for a luxury MUV like the Honda Odyssey. The Honda HR-V can go up against the Jeep Compass. Honda has to in a way give up on the mass market and reposition itself as a premium car maker. Mahindra and Tata have become the value-premium car makers, so Honda has to rebrand and market itself as better.
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Old 23rd October 2021, 06:50   #43
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

If Honda can bring a CSUV with their hybrid drivetrains to offer fuel efficiency closer to 30kmpl , competitors will be left gazing.
Honda just wonít do it, grazing green pasture is for competition.
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Old 23rd October 2021, 09:18   #44
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

I bought a Honda car recently so it is not premium brand anymore

This is the product line up I would like to see in the near future
1. Amaze - upto date no immediate change required
2. Jazz Crosstar - including hybrid - with magic seat standard across variants
3. City hybrid addition to the current range
4. Fast track latest BR-V launch

5. CKD Civic, Accord, and CRV - Face of Honda brand globally so they are required to maintain the brand image.
6. Honda E - for brand building

They are not going to do anything, I know. Their showrooms look very sad except for the new City (don't look it from the front though).

Last edited by Latheesh : 23rd October 2021 at 09:21.
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Old 23rd October 2021, 17:01   #45
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Default Re: Problems with cars in India & Honda's chance to dominate the Crossover segment

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Originally Posted by BrabarusMark View Post
I always look at the Indonesian offerings from Honda and wonder why they can't create an India-spec version of those models.

The Kia Carnival has shown there is an appetite for a luxury MUV like the Honda Odyssey. The Honda HR-V can go up against the Jeep Compass. Honda has to in a way give up on the mass market and reposition itself as a premium car maker. Mahindra and Tata have become the value-premium car makers, so Honda has to rebrand and market itself as better.
As I said in my earlier post, it's all about the money. Now, with the Civic and CR-V being sales dud, I am quite sure Honda is sceptical about bringing in the HR-V to India as buyers have plethora of options already in the Compass segment. Also, what matters is would Honda really bring something "Unique" on the table?

Jeep Compass
- Brand Image, Utility, Brilliant to drive.
Tucson - Great Value for money with pretty good drivetrains and features
Safari - Built Quality & Design

Even if we go further down the segment, each offering has somewhat created a niche for themselves!

Koreans - Features, Multiple drivetrains with Transmission option, something for everyone.
Indians & Chinese - Value for Money, Big Car Feels (Astor, XUV700, Hector)
Germans - I don't need to mention what they offer
Japanese - Reliability? That's it I guess?
Cause let's be honest, there's nothing brilliant or something awe aspiring that the Japanese can bring to the table here.

Furthermore, regarding the luxury MUVs, again Honda cannot bring the Odyssey as it would be priced at North of 50 Lakhs. The Honda Accord with an only Hybrid powertrain was another blunder, I cannot fathom paying 50-60 Lakhs for an Accord when I can legit buy a Lexus at that price!
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