[rajk15]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

This GNCAP rating was for the Africa spec Amaze. The car was made in India, but was not the India spec model. The result cannot be just extrapolated.

The GNCAP certificate mentions the car’s weight to be 1173kg. The India spec Amaze weighs 905-934kg as per the brochure.

Sorry, I was not aware of the same. Will be more responsible next time. That does pose serious questions though.

Originally Posted by Raghu M

I am not sure am reading this correctly, are you saying TATA and M&M do not have vehicles in the C-SUV segment? I think they have some of the best cars in the segment. Nexon, XUV3OO are doing fairly well.

My mistake again . I used the wrong terminology. What I meant was a Creta competitor.

Originally Posted by veedub89

Honda is no position to dominate the Indian market regardless of the car or segment.

Originally Posted by fordday

Exactly. Honda was a once desirable brand and not anymore. People have moved on.

I think car brands can reinvent themselves (if they have the will to). Sadly, fun-to-drive cars have not fared well in our market- won't get Honda a USP. Premium and good quality cars with good safety, reliability, and features are all our market is looking for (north of 5/6 lakhs).

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Typically an SUV/Crossover based on a sedan tends to cost more than the sedan itself, so that kind of rules out half the "city based" suggestions you have given considering the City itself is pretty pricey.

Was not aware of the same.

Originally Posted by saisree

We already have a " thread (Honda India : The Way Forward)" started around 2016, still strong and has a 50+ pages of useful rant.

Honda fanboys like myself still hope for this line-up; their lack of intent is what upsets us.

I believe I have given the wrong title (thanks to my love for Honda). Any car manufacturer that comes with a good service network, reliability, safety, and VFM factor is what the Indian car market demands.

[Dry Ice]

We might discuss about Honda trying to emulate Hyundai/Kia, but who knows they maybe taking a leaf out of Toyota or even Ford’s book.

Happy sitting on a car or 2 which sells well. I doubt they have any appetite for a battle with anyone.

[DicKy]

Originally Posted by YashD

Now, the concern is localisation. Furthermore, I strongly feel Honda is not confident enough due to the lack of potent (Diesel) powertrain to enter this segment and the

If I am not wrong, they are still building the 1.6l i-DTEC in India for export, right? It might have been pretty average for the Civic and Cr-v. But for the Creta segment, the engine is fairly competent.

[Lalvaz]

Too optimistic to expect Honda to rule the market. This is 2021, not 2000, the market is now flooded with options from the Koreans and the Chinese, and the Indians aren't far behind.

The Japs seem to be losing the plot, with the exception of Maruti Suzuki, who I daresay are also perceived as laid back and lacking the aggression required to dominate a market.

Honda cars were good for the Fun to Drive and the reliability, but they changed and destroyed their USP. They also made their cars like Maruti, basically thin tin cans in order to compete on price. In the bargain they lost whatever lil loyal customers they had.

I'm just hoping that Honda tries to keep its place in the Indian market, and doesn't packup like so many others.

[narayans80]

1. Honda India is just plain lazy. They are among the least aggressive next to Toyota in the market.
2. Less said about Honda sales the better. Few years back I got in touch with Sundaram Honda and Sundaram VW. The latter was aggressive in followup, brought a vehicle for test ride. The former didn't even bother to attend to a customer who visited their showroom.

If there is an aggressive PV manufacturer today, it is got to be Tata. Barring the long selling City and to an extent Amaze, Honda is almost an ICU patient occupying the bed next to Renault-Nissan.

[GTO]

There is a better chance of the incumbents improving on their weaknesses, rather than Honda bringing some game-changing SUV / Crossover. Even internationally, Honda is stuck doing "more of the same thing" (YAWN) and nothing new. The company today simply doesn't have the aggression + hunger it had 20 years back. Fun fact = at one time, Honda India was the top player in each segment it had a presence in with the City, Civic, Accord & CR-V all being either the no.1 or no.2 in their respective categories.

Newbies like Kia & MG are offering more relevant products & technology today. Sat in an Astor recently?

10-years ago, I had started a thread on Honda's challenges & weaknesses (Honda India : The Way Forward). Shockingly, a lot of those points still apply today so the management is clearly snoozing. I mean, think about it, what has Honda India done in the last decade that truly stood out? I can't come up with anything. Not a single standout product, no game-changing tech, not one brave & aggressive move.

[Kosfactor]

It is very tempting to chase volumes and try to be Maruti, wont go well for the most part. You make small cars with very little revenue out of it and that limits you from investing in new products that would actually make some revenue, fast. One can ask Renault about it.

Honda`s premium image collapsed with Brio, Jazz, BRV, WRV etc while brands like Hyundai focused on the premium segment after burning their hand with Eon and is now having year long waiting list for vehicles that are exorbitantly priced. Volumes? who cares.

[ron178]

I am surprised at Honda. They seem to have changed for the worse in the early 2010s and while they're bouncing back now their management is so slow that it's impossible to recognise where they're improving; it's really hard to watch. Now, leaving the long-pending midsize SUV launch aside, there's one thing that needs to be talked about, and something I think Honda should capitalise on: safety (I'll talk about it since it is my area of interest)

Honda made front airbags and ABS standard across their entire fleet in the late 2000s, a move that came way before there was any chance of an NCAP being set up in India. They clearly advertised that their Indian products were tested to G-CON standards (which are clearly very high). Then, I don't know how or why, but the bean-counting started. Honda seemed to be aiming squarely at a slice of Maruti or Hyundai's slice of pie, and it's something that didn't suit Honda's image at all. Honda, before that, had the very respectable image of a manufacturer selling world-class cars in mass-market segments, albeit at higher prices than competition. But some people were okay with that. Those who knew what they were paying for would appreciate it. (I was very young at the time but I can distinctly remember relatives talking about Honda selling cars built to global standards. Direct and extended family was full of Hondas at the time.)

When the Brio came, airbags and anti-lock brakes were knocked off the standard equipment list. The first-generation Amaze was worse (if I remember reading it right) with airbags being limited to very few variants. Then came a slew of cars on that platform, all of which flopped one after the other and probably led Honda to stop investing in India like they did in the past. People just didn't want these watered-down Hondas with, forgive me for this, nasty-looking interiors and sparse safety equipment. The typical Honda buyer didn't mind paying a premium to have a product built to the usual high Honda standards.

Within five years, Honda went from being at the top of the safety game to being a laggard, nearly at the bottom of the segments it sold cars in. In 2016, Global NCAP tested the Honda Mobilio. Not surprisingly, it scored zero stars. Basic variants were not fitted with airbags. Honda sponsored a test on a variant equipped with airbags and despite good structural integrity, it put up a mixed performance showing high rearward pedal displacement and ruining any potential Honda had left at the time for advertising its past lead on safety. This was also shocking because cars built on the same architecture tested by ASEAN NCAP actually showed very well-controlled pedal displacement. The reason for this remains unsolved even today. This made one wonder whether Honda was actually testing its Indian products to G-CON standards.



It took Honda till 2017 to re-fit its model range with standard double airbags and ABS, something they had been the first to do nine years before. The basic 2014 City had only one standard airbag, the Jazz had none. Both clearly a step down over their predecessors.

Then, Honda discontinued the entire line of products based on the architecture that had brought it failure one after the other (except the first-gen Amaze, maybe). In 2018 came the new Amaze. Fitted with pretty basic safety equipment. Two airbags, ABS and ISOFIX with top tether. Enough for a good Global NCAP rating, but not segment-leading in any way. There was no real deal breaker and it still sells quite well.

In 2019, Global NCAP tested a made-in-India Amaze exported to South Africa, with two airbags, ABS, ISOFIX, but only driver-side seatbelt reminder unlike the Indian version which gets a dual seatbelt reminder (which is a requirement for the 5th Global NCAP star for adult occupant protection). Now, since the Amaze was intended to be sold only in developing markets, personally, I highly doubt that they bothered to develop a separate version for South Africa, but, there is absolutely no way I can confirm this unless Global NCAP tests a sold-in-India car so don't take my word for it. My hypothesis is based on South Africa having far worse safety regulation than India and the Amaze being a developing market-only model.

The South African Amaze scored 4 stars for adult occupant protection but 1 star for child occupant protection. The child occupant protection took a big hit in the dynamic test because the rear armrest unlatched during the test and the Q1.5 dummy consequently showed poor protection. Also, surprisingly, Honda South Africa chose to recommend a forward-facing restraint for the Q3 dummy, something global manufacturers typically avoid. In a way, I'm thankful the South African variant was tested because the basic Indian variant (E) does not get a rear armrest which could have positively influenced the child occupant protection rating and the invalidity of the rating for higher variants could have gone unnoticed by Honda, Global NCAP as well as consumers.

But, let's come to the adult occupant protection rating. The Amaze scored 4 stars, i.e., 14.08 points with driver SBR (which means that if the passenger SBR meets requirements and if the Indian car is otherwise identical it could score 14.58) That's in 5 star territory. Arguably not too comfortably in 5-star territory (unlike the 16.00+ point ratings Tata is achieving) but I assume that Honda India could have the variable contact+concentrated loading modifiers removed by sponsoring a sled test during the one-to-one meeting if the need arises (that is, if it doesn't cross 14.00 points due to minor differences in test performance like the Indian vs African Toyota Liva showed).



Now, I've been really curious about the applicability of the Amaze's rating for the Indian market, so I contacted Mr Alejandro Furas of Global NCAP and he said:

They should be similar, test procedure, scoring and else is the same, so you can “export” Africa results to India. We have yet no evidence that Indian OEMs are exporting cars with structural differences to Africa.
When a result is not valid to be “exported” from Africa to India we do indicate so to the media in the case that we are approached.

Somehow, I'm still not convinced. I'd like Global NCAP to test a modern Indian Honda but they're short on funds and they won't test a car whose (good) performance are quite sure of. But as consumers, we're not sure. My question to Honda is, if they're really selling the same car in India and Africa, why aren't they sponsoring a test on it? Sponsor a test on it. Get those 5 stars (again, I'm not so sure they can, but I hope they do). Advertise it aggressively; it'll be the first in the segment. And watch the cash flow in. I don't know if Honda India's management is still stuck in the age-old belief that safety doesn't sell in India. I know the passivity of Honda's management but I'm not asking Honda to launch a new product or something. All I ask of them is that they sponsor a test to objectively inform consumers about the safety of their product. They can brag about ACE and G-CON all they want, but without a standardised test they can't expect us to assume G-CON is better than a proper NCAP rating, especially when all said and done, no Indian Honda has performed particularly well in NCAP tests (unlike elsewhere, even other developing markets where they ace (pun not intended) every NCAP test comfortably and even go so far as to say that NCAP testing is not enough).

If Global NCAP tests the Amaze next year and its score is capped at 2 stars for not having ESC, I will have no sympathy towards Honda if people compare the rating to, say, the Tata Punch tested this year which scored 5 stars under current protocol even if the Amaze has similar levels of occupant protection. If Honda wants consumers to stop drawing conclusions they should sponsor a test or deal with the consequences of not doing so.

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

The GNCAP certificate mentions the car’s weight to be 1173kg. The India spec Amaze weighs 905-934kg as per the brochure.

You may be right in not directly using the Amaze's result for South Africa, but a reminder that the test mass specified by Global NCAP includes the mass of two Hybrid III 50th percentile dummies (77.7kg each), a Q3 dummy (14.6kg) and Q1.5 dummy (11.1kg), child restraints (mass of these varies significantly depending on manufacturer recommendations), on-board high-speed recording equipment, and the summation of other very insignificant masses like shoulder-belt loadcells etc (for example these are <100g each hence negligible). Nevertheless, manufacturers can sell cars with the same kerb mass but different structural performance by simply avoiding hot-stamping of some members or reducing the density of spot welds to save production costs. This is a common occurrence in modern lightweight modular platforms that are originally designed to use extensive high-strength steel parts to improve fuel economy while providing good crashworthiness, but since these are expensive, manufacturers sometimes simply skip hot-stamping these members for developing markets. This results in no change in mass, which is why using kerb masses for crash performance may be a dangerous practice today.

[sunikkat]

I do not see Honda getting back to prime in near future, if not going down further. They do not have products nor engines currently in India to compete. Neither have we seen any pipeline launches in India. Vtec engine was great when the market was ruled by NA engines, but now the fact is 1.5 vtec is not able to keep up with 1 liter turbo engines and competitors have 1.5 turbo engines within 20 lakhs range.
So if Honda has to atleast compete (forget dominance) in Indian market they really have to get good products and engines than staying in the past success stories.

Slightly off topic, when I was shopping in 2009 had visited Honda showroom for City and remember how rude the salesman was when I asked for any offers and his reply was 'Honda doesn't give discounts'. Honda had aspirational values then. How time changes!!

[mnram]

Agreed that Honda is not what it used to be. Even now our 2010 Honda Civic never fails to give me a grin whenever I push it and is more than willing to rev hard. Had taken a test drive of the now discontinued next gen civic and it was not that rev happy in comparison.

Nevertheless, could the entire blame be put on Honda? We as a market are still buying Maruti in bulk volumes in which there has been no major updates compared to the competition. So maybe Honda is taking it slow. But hearing the rumors of new CRV and mid size SUV gives me hope that there are plans in pipeline and that Honda is taking India seriously.

Also one thing I have noted is that the Japanese manufacturer has always been slow and they always give priority to reliability. For example, when automatics started coming, they were patient till the CVT tech was advanced enough to be reliable enough to put it in their cars and introduce in our market. Another example is the diesel engines in Honda. So hopefully, they do the same for the Turbo petrol engines & DSG and create a disruption in the market, albeit a very small one, in the next 2 years.

[Aaron:)]

The biggest mistake Honda made was in 2013 - Going mainstream in a bid to compete with Maruti and Hyundai. They need to realise (as Toyota did) that they just can’t compete in the budget segments.

Their biggest opportunity lies in the segments above the City. Think about it - how many buyers must be smitten with the Octavia and Superb, but shied away due to the maintenance costs or lack of reliability? If Honda can give them a Civic and Accord that’s just as competent as the Octavia and Superb, the market is theirs for the taking. Isn’t that exactly what they did in the 2000s?

Similarly the HR-V to compete with the Compass/Tucson and CR-V to compete with the Kodiaq/Tiguan.

What Honda needs to do is re-enter these segments with full guns blazing - not a half hearted effort like the previous Civic and CR-V. It may not give them volumes, but it’ll help their profitability and give back some of the brand cachet that they’ve lost recently.

For volumes - bring in the next gen BR-V with a new name and the Honda sensing features, price it at a slight premium to the XL6 and watch it fly off the shelves.

Honda India actually has the ammo lying around needed to be great again - all they need is common sense and some guts.

[fhdowntheline]

I don't understand how one can have a safety concern about Creta/ Seltos when the facts are that of all the cars in that category, only the Seltos has been actually tested by GNCAP. We don't know anything about Creta, Astor, Hector, Compass, Harrier, Kicks or Duster.

[Mafia]

Honda has slowly coasted to being a laggard of a company in the 4-wheeler segment. I think some swapping of managers and thinkers is required between their 2-wheeler and 4-wheeler segments.

Additionally, Honda has premium pricing on their products in most markets, reducing the desirability somewhat.

The last big thing Honda developed for India is the Diesel engine. It is fun to drive diesel engine while being amazingly fuel-efficient. A visually updated WRV with the right gear-boxes will sell even now.

If a company like Tata can turn things around, Honda with its global presence and sheer revenue can do it.

Nissan and Renault literally were on the way out. 1(Magnite) and 2(Kiger & Triber) good products have put them on the list of many customers and the products are taken seriously in any comparison. I would even dare say the benchmarks of VFM in their segments.

Honda has to do a serious shakedown and relook at the success stories in the market and replicate them.

[rajk15]

Originally Posted by fhdowntheline

I don't understand how one can have a safety concern about Creta/ Seltos when the facts are that of all the cars in that category, only the Seltos has been actually tested by GNCAP. We don't know anything about Creta, Astor, Hector, Compass, Harrier, Kicks or Duster.

The Creta and the Seltos are nearly identical as far as underpinnings go, thus raising questions about Creta's safety ratings. As for the Harrier twins, questions about their safety ratings have also been raised on this forum, however, due to Tata's good track record up to Nexon inspires confidence in buyers for the vehicles' safety (at least over the Creta/Seltos).
For the rest of the vehicles mentioned, the safety aspect is not clear (they only feel solidly built; there are a lot of other factors affecting safety), buyers only hope that the vehicle is safe (and at least hope they might be better than Creta/Seltos).
As for my post, I tried highlighting the number one concern regarding the vehicles.

Originally Posted by Aaron:)

The biggest mistake Honda made was in 2013 - Going mainstream in a bid to compete with Maruti and Hyundai. They need to realise (as Toyota did) that they just can’t compete in the budget segments.

Their biggest opportunity lies in the segments above the City. If Honda can give them a Civic and Accord that’s just as competent as the Octavia and Superb, the market is theirs for the taking.

Similarly the HR-V to compete with the Compass/Tucson and CR-V to compete with the Kodiaq/Tiguan.

What Honda needs to do is re-enter these segments with full guns blazing - not a half hearted effort like the previous Civic and CR-V. It may not give them volumes, but it’ll help their profitability and give back some of the brand cachet that they’ve lost recently.

For volumes - bring in the next gen BR-V with a new name and the Honda sensing features, price it at a slight premium to the XL6 and watch it fly off the shelves.

Agreed
I tried to share a plan which would help them gain back volumes, but after reading many BHPians' views, I believe this would be a better plan of action for Honda. Really hope they do something of this sort.

Originally Posted by Mafia

Honda has slowly coasted to being a laggard of a company in the 4-wheeler segment. I think some swapping of managers and thinkers is required between their 2-wheeler and 4-wheeler segments.

Would that also not finish off their 2-wheeler business?

Originally Posted by Mafia

Additionally, Honda has premium pricing on their products in most markets, reducing the desirability somewhat.

Sorry, couldn't comprehend what you meant by this. How would the premium pricing reduce desirability? For most Indian households, a car is a status symbol- the costlier, the better.

Originally Posted by Mafia

The last big thing Honda developed for India is the Diesel engine. It is fun to drive diesel engine while being amazingly fuel-efficient. A visually updated WRV with the right gear-boxes will sell even now.

If a company like Tata can turn things around, Honda with its global presence and sheer revenue can do it.

Nissan and Renault literally were on the way out. 1(Magnite) and 2(Kiger & Triber) good products have put them on the list of many customers and the products are taken seriously in any comparison. I would even dare say the benchmarks of VFM in their segments.

Honda has to do a serious shakedown and relook at the success stories in the market and replicate them.

Originally Posted by Aaron:)

Honda India actually has the ammo lying around needed to be great again - all they need is common sense and some guts.

Exactly what I have been trying to say!!

[Mr.Ogre]

I don't think it is India specific issue for Honda. Honda is facing issues globally. In Australia too there are rumours that Honda may wind up and go in the near future. I guess the problem started when they wandered away from their core strengths and tried to make boring cars to please everyone. Ironically in that pursuit they completely missed what the market wanted.

I do feel that Honda can still turn it around with a potent line-up of Compact and mid size SUV's. They can learn a thing or two from Toyota who have a SUV in every price bracket here. Ford is doing the same, so are the Korean twins.

They need to follow that up with a good offering of EV's.

I really hope they do not drop Civic Type R and RS in all this.