[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by BUSA

To the general public, and thats the reason why the Stile is going to or is already selling in low numbers.

General public gives a hoot to performance, all they are concerned about is FE and reasonable performance.

Originally Posted by BUSA

I would buy a Santro. If i buy a Getz i would surely prefer the 1.3 version.

Originally Posted by BUSA

A car is judged atleast by me, not by how it performs or rides/handles but by how trouble free my ownership experience is. Mind you i have a Palio and servicing is like servicing a Chinkara.

You are contradicting yourself here.

Originally Posted by BUSA

The wrong thing is since there are two types of buyers :-
1. Who dont care about FE but want performance
2. Those who care about FE but not about performance

You can't be more wrong here... I would let others clarify you on this.

[Sam Kapasi]

Posted by mclaren in October 2005

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

the drive was a pure bliss..imagine a GTX take on a vtec and a baleno in a straight line with all that load at the back and eventually beat them both..haha..the look on the faces of the baleno and vtec boys said it all...sam *** have u done to the car !!!! it flies..as if the music is not enough to make us fly...

..should have seen the shock on my dads face when i said leave the zen out..which hasnt happend ever since its come out of the showroom..that was the extent i had fallen in love with this car..

This should kind of silence the people who think this kid hates fiats.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

General public gives a hoot to performance, all they are concerned about is FE and reasonable performance.

Not anymore. The trend is changing. However FE is one of the concerns now not the most important. This coming from my family members is .

Originally Posted by sam kapasi

This should kind of silence the people who think this kid hates fiats.

Thank you yeti. Finney I hope you are reading this. And also this from the starter of this thread :
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/133739-post41.html

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by BUSA

If space is not the only criteria then why should i buy a Palio? For its tank like build and tank like performance

Frankly I am not amused. Own one and you will come to know of the other virtues, its easy forming opinions sitting on your favourite arm chair.

Originally Posted by BUSA

Spongy or worst, its going to be the second last to stop, wont it?

Says who... Autocar.. another automag.... huh! Why dont you believe what other owners of Palio have to say?

[Zappo]

Originally Posted by finneyp

It is really unfortunate that because of the biased attitude of some Senior BHPians and some 'Dist' BHPians too, this forum which was supposed to be Forum for all Indian Car lovers is slowly becoming a Forum for Maruti lovers and Fiat haters!

I never tried to be biased towards Fiat though I own a Palio, infact I have cursed Fiat India for the mess they've created in the past.
But even if they seems to be doing things right now, we bad mouth them as ever, and I find it difficult to digest.
Why the heck are we singling out Palio and Fiat everytime when there are so many other flop cars in the market?

If this trend continues, I will be forced to log-off from this forum for good, though it will not make any difference to anyone here.

Finneyp buddy... really, why do you take things so personally? I have said this earlier in reponse to one of your posts and I am saying this again. There is nothing like Fiat Haters and such...

At times you sound like those Trade Unionists who raise the banner of revolt to shield his charges (the labour forces)... Only that here you seem to do it for Fiat. Ask yourself is not Stile 1.1 strategy a bit skewed? I remember long back Fiat used to justify the 1.9D engine (vis-a-vis its them competitor, Tata) by saying that the Palio is a heavy car and hence a 1.9 engine helps it run effortlessly with multidimensional advantages and all such things. From there they have now moved down to an anaemic 1.1 engine on the same car that really finds it a struggle to pull the car.

Just because the government says engine below 1.2 will get excise concession if Volvo decides to put a 1.2 engine in its buses will that still remain that high and mighty Volvo (bus)? Ok, I am taking refuge to 'artistic liberties' to convey the point but still... 1.6GTX may be great... but 1.1? I seriously think people have a point when they criticise that car. Just because its a Palio does not make it anything like a 1.6GTX. No.

Yes, there are flopped cars in the market. A SRV or a Logan (fast going the flop way) are all such species... and they were criticised. However Fiat has a bigger name in India than any of these manufacturers. People lapped them up when they came in. So obviously when they messed up and then over the years show no signs of rectifying the scenario the pitfalls (and brickbats) were also more severe.

Now, if you do see a point here tell me something. You think all these objective reasoning still seems like a reason for you to quit the forum? Well, I think that will not exactly be worth the deal mate.

[hydrashok]

Fiat Palio Stile 1.1 - WHY?

Maybe because it is a good car to ICE? *sniggers and runs back into the ICE section*

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Not anymore. The trend is changing. However FE is one of the concerns now not the most important. This coming from my family members is .

I am not discounting the performance numbers altogether, that whyy i mentioned "reasonable performance". Also the performance would be judged either from the owners of the car or via a test drive, not just numbers.

[Sam Kapasi]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

Maybe because it is a good car to ICE? *sniggers and runs back into the ICE section*

I couldn't agree more. Take the back seat out and there's ample place to add 2X15" woofers. The metal is solid and less damping is required as opposed to a jap or korean car.

The earlier palio used to use a 140A bosch alternator, excellent for running very high current draw amplifiers. All good reasons to ICE up the palio.

Here's a pictorial explanation as to why you should buy the stile.




As you can see from the above pictorial representation, it is possible to remove the back seat and still sit very comfortably in the rear. A party can be had anytime and anyplace. All chicks are also guaranteed at this party.
Remember gentlemen, do not try this at home. Please try it in a Palio with adult supervision only.

Also, the value of the ICE will not drop as rapidly as the value of the Palio. This is our collective assurance. So when you need to sell, you'll atleast get money for the system, if not for the car.

Hydra, wait for me, I'm giggling like a little girl,flailing my arms and running behind you, towards the ICE section.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by Sam Kapasi

As you can see from the above pictorial representation, it is possible to remove the back seat and still sit very comfortably in the rear. A party can be had anytime and anyplace. All chicks are also guaranteed at this party.
Remember gentlemen, do not try this at home. Please try it in a Palio with adult supervision only.

Also, the value of the ICE will not drop as rapidly as the value of the Palio. This is our collective assurance. So when you need to sell, you'll atleast get money for the system, if not for the car.

Hydra, wait for me, I'm giggling like a little girl,flailing my arms and running behind you, towards the ICE section.

that was really hilarious. Sam just cant Stop ROTFLMAO.

[Rtech]

When the ICER's invade a thread like this, you know there is nothing left to discuss!

[speedzak]

Originally Posted by hydrashok

Maybe because it is a good car to ICE? *sniggers and runs back into the ICE section*

Great! That is now something.
*We need some people like you here*

Wait, there they come.

Hydra, wait for me, I'm giggling like a little girl,flailing my arms and running behind you, towards the ICE section.

[Whenasked]

Originally Posted by finneyp

This is going too far!
Now, we are nitpicking Palio Ads too!

Just think of a HYUNDAI ad here..People who buy HYUNDAI only are intelligent. I have never seen a stupid ad as that

[hrag]

Originally Posted by amit

I don't recollect Fiat making a statement blaming our fuel quality for not launching the MJD. I believe it was Honda that made this ridiculous statement.

From the FAQ section of the old FIAT website at the launch of the Palio diesel:

Palio Diesel
Fiat Diesel Technology vs Competition
Give me some basic information about this new diesel engine?
• The Palio diesel is equipped with a 4 cylinder in line 1910cc (bore of 82mm and stroke of 90.4 mm) diesel
engine.
• It breathes through two valves per cylinder, operated by an overhead camshaft.
• It is a normally aspirated indirection injection engine.
• Its power is 63 bhp at 4500 rpm and peak torque is 12.2 kgm at 2500 rpm.
Which are the other cars on which this 1.9 D engine is used?
• Fiat uses this engine on some its most successful international models such as the Doblo, Multipla, Punto,
and Marrea in its existing configuration of normally aspirated indirect injection where it delivers 63 bhp.
• Besides it is also available in turbo charged as well as Common Rail Turbo charged direct injection. In its
CRDi configuration it finds application in the AlfaRomeo/Lancia/Fiat range.
Why is Fiat not offering CRDi diesel technology in India?
• CRDi technology is extremely sensitive to quality of diesel since the pump operates at a pressure of 1200
plus bar. Any adulteration with kerosene or water causes expensive damage to the high pressure injection
equipment
• The Indian diesel market is spread across rural and urban cities with major markets being the rural towns
where quality of fuel is very poor. Hence for 'B' and 'C' segment cars it is not sensible to offer such
sophisticated technology.
• In cars like the Mercedes Benz it is possible to offer CRDi since such cars are used in primarily urban
markets and even then they have problems.
• Please note that Fiat is the pioneer in CRDi technology and were the first in the world to develop this
technology. At the appropriate time and suitable product range we will offer CRDi technology in the Indian
market.
Why did you bring in the 1900 cc diesel engine? Don't you think it is too large an engine for the Palio?
Indica, which is a similar size of car, has a 1400 cc engine and diesel sales contribute to 90% of its total
volume.
• With a 1400 cc engine the Indica delivers only 53.5 bhp and 8.5 kgm of torque.
• On the other hand our 1.9 D engine delivers adequate power (63 bhp) and torque (12 kgm) which has
adequate reserves to provide a relaxed driving experience on the Palio.
• Internationally most cars in 'B' and 'C' segment are powered with engines of this size, ex the Ford Fiesta
which has a 1800 cc diesel engine, a 3 box variant of which is the Ford Ikon which has the same engine in
India. Same is the case with the Volkswagen Polo which is powered by a 1.8 litre diesel engine.
• Our Uno diesel which is extremely popular has a 1700 cc engine. Hence the Palio which is a bigger car
needs a 1900 cc engine for a satisfying drive with adequate reserve power.
How does your engine compare with the CRDi with respect to the technology / power.
• The 1.9 D-Tech engine offered on our range is modern with the latest electronic fuel injection
technology.
• It delivers adequate power and torque for stress free and safe driving with adequate reserve power.
• The 1.9 diesel Palio does not have the added sophistication and complication of the CRDi engine in terms
of turbo charger/high pressure pump. Hence while providing good power and refinement it does not have
the problems associated with Common rail technology.
What do you mean by electronic fuel injection pump?
• Engine Management System - The heart of a diesel engine is its fuel injection system. In case of the 1.9 D
- Tech engine the injection system consists of an electronically managed mechanical pump from
Delphi/Lucas.
• It works on an advanced fuel/air system management and employs a 16 bit electronic control unit (ECU)
to meter precise quantity of fuel to be injected into the cylinders with accurate timing (injection advance)
and pressure, to achieve the best possible engine performance in terms of power, fuel consumption,
emissions and driveability.
• The ECU is a microprocessor, which is present in all MPFI petrol cars and this ECU ensures precise
combustion under various operating conditions resulting in superior combustion characteristics of the
engine
• During gear shifting while accelerating and decelerating the system further modulates the fuel supply to
ensure a smooth ride by employing a clutch sensor which modulates engine rpm.
• Very few diesel engine cars have ECU in their system. Fuel metering and timing is an approximation in
such engines.
• In the case of the microprocessor controlled 1.9 D-Tech the guessing is eliminated. This ensures low
emissions, crisp throttle response and minimal Noise, Vibration, Harshness (NVH) levels. The 1.9 D Tech can
easily meet Euro III norms (when required).
What do you mean by 'Drive by Wire' technology and how do you compare your car with aircrafts
• Diesel technology used by the competition employs a cable link between the accelerator pedal and Fuel
injection pump, which regulates the quantity fuel that is supplied to the engine.
• In the case of the Palio Diesel we use an Accelerator Pedal Potentiometer. Driver inputs at the
accelerator pedal position are converted into an electrical voltage signal and sent to the ECU by a
potentiometer connected to the accelerator pedal. Thus the accelerator pedal inputs are processed
together with other vital inputs from sensors which measure other critical parameters to provide precise
diesel injection timing and pressure.
• This technology of converting driver inputs into electrical signals, which are processed by an ECU, was
first introduced in aircrafts and the term 'Fly by Wire' was introduced. Since we use similar technology we
compare our cars with aircrafts in our communication.
Diesel engines are known to be polluting. What are the emission control devices used on this engine?
• High Turbulence Combustion chamber: Specially designed high turbulence combustion chamber resulting
in optimum mixing of the fuel with air and reduced emissions. Additional benefit is silent operation of
engine with lower vibrations.
• Exhaust Gas Recirculation System: This system makes it possible to send some of the exhaust gases to the
intake in certain engine operating condition. This dilutes the fuel mixture with inert gases to lower peak
temperature in the combustion chamber and limit the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOX) thereby reducing
exhaust levels.
• Oxidation catalyst: in the exhaust converts hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide emissions to water and
carbon dioxide respectively.
Your diesel engine seems to be very sophisticated. What precautions have you taken to adapt it to
Indian conditions
• 300,000 kms - testing on Indian roads for suitability to our fuel and driving
conditions.
• 'Water in fuel' - indicator on the dashboard is an additional safeguard for the fuel
injection equipment since it provides a warning to the driver.
• 'On board diagnostic' sensor - on the dashboard also warns the driver in case of
any malfunction in the electronic system.
• Engine Oil cooler - with Special ventilation ensures that temperatures of the
engine oil remains within limits in the worse of operating conditions thereby ensuring
engine longevity. Additional vents made in the front bumper will ensure air flow over
the oil cooler.
• Dual cooling fans - have been provided to ensure engine cooling in the worst of
operating conditions.
Tell me something more about this 'On board diagnostic' sensor on the dashboard.
• Auto Diagnosis: The control unit self-diagnostic system checks signals from the sensors and compares
them with permitted limit values. If any fault is detected in the sensors or actuators, signal reconstruction
strategies are immediately implemented (recovery) to ensure the engine operates at an acceptable level
without affecting the operation. The engine check lamp on the instrument panel will light up but the
engine will keep running thereby allowing the car to be driven to a service outlet for repair.
• At the workshop, full electronic diagnosis of the injection system is achieved by connecting the tester
(examiner) to the diagnostic socket. The system is equipped with a self-diagnostic function that
recognizes, memorizes and indicates any faults. benefits
Is this a fuel-efficient engine? What is the on the road mileage you will get on this?
• Yes. Due to precise metering of fuel, thanks to the electronic fuel pump, the engine is very efficient.
• In our tests the Palio 1.9 D delivers 13 to 15 kmpl in city traffic with AC on, while on the highway fuel
consumption average is more than 16 kmpl. These are ofcourse indicative figures and can vary depending
upon traffic conditions, driving habits and vehicle condition.
Your spare parts are also high as compared to other manufacturers. Moreover, their availability is also
a problem and always have to be sourced from Mumbai which means the vehicle has to be grounded
for along time.
• Most components of the Palio have been localised and hence are easily available at an affordable price.
Our dealers will provide you with all comparative part prices that will dispel any myths.
How is the noise level / vibration & ride of the 1900 cc diesel engine?
• Being an indirect injection engine the combustion is very smooth.
• There is hardly any noise or vibration in the passenger compartment
• Adequate heat and noise insulation has been provided to ensure a silent ride with effective AC cooling.
• Kindly take a test drive and convince yourself.
Can you provide some details of the safety features of your car?
• Safety is the design credo for which all the Fiat cars are famous. The Palio diesel is the only car in 'B' and
'C' segment to offer option of Driver air bag with pretensed seat belt with Anti lock Braking System (ABS).
Even Skoda Octavia does not have ABS/Air bags on their diesel model
• Reinforced body with programmed crumple zones, which absorb shock of impact.
• A rigid and hard to deform passenger compartment.
• Protection against side impact by side beams in all doors.
• Energy Absorbing Steering Wheel.
• Anti submarine seats - which prevent occupants from sliding out of their seats in case of a frontal impact
• Collapsible steering column
• Fire protection Switch - to switch off fuel supply in case of an accident
• Rounded interiors
• Non jamming door latches
• Every aspect of this car has been designed to provide you a safety environment
with the highest standards.
You are using the same engine in Palio and Adventure. Is it not overpowered for Palio or
underpowered for the Adventure
• Globally many car manufacturers successfully use the same engine in different
cars, ex the Mercedes Benz 'C' and 'E' class cars, which offer a common engine
among choices.
• This is achieved through optimisation of gear ratios and other parameters.
• The 1.9 D-Tech engine is a versatile power plant and powers several vehicle small
and medium sized such as the Punto/Doblo/Multipla.
• For the Adventure we have optimised the gear ratios with the 1.9 D-Tech engine.
Kindly take a test drive of the Adventure. You will note that it is not underpowered.
Why have you not offered a diesel variant of the Siena and Weekend. Will they have the same engine?
• Diesel variants of the Siena and Weekend will be offered shortly.
• They will have the same engine suitably optimised.
Why should I pay the huge price difference between the Palio diesel and Indica diesel?
• Engine -with a 1400 cc engine the Indica is an extremely underpowered car. It delivers only 53.5 bhp and
8.5 kgm of torque. The driving experience is stressful since it is difficult to overtake other cars in traffic.
On slopes the AC has to be switched off. Gears have to be continously changed to maintain the momentum
of the car. In fact that is the reason why they have turbo charged the 1400 cc engine for application in the
Indigo. On the other hand our 1.9 D engine delivers adequate power (63 bhp) and torque (12.2 kgm) which
has adequate reserves to provide a relaxed driving experience on the Palio.
• Engine life - the small 1.4 engine on the Indica needs overhaul at lower (100,000 km) interval since the
load on the engine is high. On the other hand the 1.9 D-Tech engine of the Palio will give a life of atleast
150,000 kms.
• Subframe for Engine and suspension - this insulates the cabin from engine vibrations and road shocks.
Without an engine sub frame the Indica engine shakes and jerks which is felt on the gear lever.
• Refinement - Besides the Indica lacks the feel of a refined car. The engine is rough and harsh.
• Gear shift quality - The gearbox of Palio has twin Bowden cables for gear shifting which eliminate
vibrations and noise levels and results in slick gear shifts. The Indica uses a rod linkage, which results in
vague/spongy gear shift quality besides transmission of engine vibrations to the driver.
• Ride quality - of the Palio is far superior thanks to use of an engine sub frame in the front on which all
suspension and engine components are mounted and thereby preventing shocks/vibrations from reaching
the passengers. This sub frame is not present on the Indica. In the rear the Palio has a heavy duty twist
beam suspension alongwith an anti roll bar. The rear suspension of the Indica does not have an anti roll bar
• Looks - the Indica was launched in 1999 and is outdated styling. It is based on the styling our original
Palio which has been restyled and launched in India with clear lamps in front and rear. The Indica has huge
gaps between the front wheel and body. Its tow hooks are not concealed and potrude. It is not a well
finished car.
• High speed handling - the Italian engineering of the Palio ensures superior handling and control even at
high speeds. The Indica on the other hand is not so sure footed at high speeds.
• Quality of plastics and fittings - is low on the Indica. Please compare their steering wheel/Gear knob
quality with that of the Palio and judge for yourself.
• User friendly dashboard - Palio has an asymmetric design for ease of use of controls. Our music system is
mounted at a high level unlike the Indica where it is at a low level thereby causing a distraction while
driving.
• Resale value - They have taken cost cutting to an extreme. After a few months the car is known to rattle.
It has very low resale. Fiat diesels have always commanded a good price.
• Trouble free ownership - Indica is infamous for its high product complaint levels even after the V2. On
the other hand Fiat diesels are trouble free operation with long engine life.
• Driving comfort - on long trips and the easy maneuverability in the city are aided
by a smooth and effortless hydraulic clutch which does not require any adjustment
since it is self adjusting.
• Safety - Bi parabola halogen headlights, responsive steering mechanism add to your safety in the Palio.
Fire protection Switch to switch off fuel supply in case of an accident. Energy Absorbing Steering Wheel.
Ours is an international car, which has been successful worldwide in countries like
Brazil/Turkey/Poland/China/South Africa and many more.
• Luggage capacity - The Palio boot is also far more spacious at 260 Litres as
compared to 217 of the Indica. You can carry one extra suitcase in the Palio.
• Fuel tank capacity - 47 litres against 37 of Indica. Larger fuel capacity is
essential on long drives since diesel on highway pumps is often adulterated.
• Dual parabola headlamps - for a modern look and better night illumination.
• Warranty - Besides the Palio uses higher quality of steel and is covered by a 5 year anti perforation
warranty while the Indica has only an 18 month warranty.
• Features - Palio offers several features which are not available on Indica such as H Double crank
protection on ignition lock H Clutch footrest H 3 stage door opening H ABS option H Water in diesel sensor H
Anti roll bar in rear H Concealed tow hook H Body side door moulding H Reverse gear interlock H Fire
Protection System
What are the specific user-friendly features of the diesel Palio?
• Tachometer is a standard feature on all the variants and is the only car in the B segment to have this
feature on all its variants.
• Wooden dashboard finish is another unique feature in the 'B segment.
• Variable capacity AC compressor - this provides steady cooling without excessively loading the engine. Its
capacity is 126 cc.
• Besides we provide an anti glare rear view mirror on all models.
• Additionally our diesel range all other features offered on our petrol range such as third stop light, rear
windshield defroster, power windows on all four doors, internally adjustable rear view mirrors, parcel shelf
at rear, pre wiring for music/speaker fitment, a 2 year cosmetic warranty and a 5 year anti perforation
warranty on the body shell and so on.
What additional features are available on your EL model over the Indica DLS
• cabin heater in the HVAC
• anti glare rear view mirror
• cigarette lighter
• rpm meter
What additional features are available on your ELX model over their DLX
• Door moulding
• Wooden finish on dashboard
• 6 speaker wiring as compared to 4 on Indica
How many colours do you offer on the Palio?
• 6 on the EL and & 7 on the ELX
• Shade panels of these colours are available with us.
What is the ground clearance of the Palio diesel?
• Same as the petrol variant at 170 mm.
Is this 1.9 D-Tech engine imported or is it localised
• As of now major components of this engine are imported but few are localised and the engine is
assembled here. We will increase local content gradually.
The 178 platform is to undergo one more restyle. When will it happen?
• The Palio was launched only recently in India and is the best looking car in its segment.
• It is fresh and well appreciated in the Indian market.
• Hence we do not plan to make any changes in its styling in the near future.

[Zappo]

Actually Amit Fiat used to have that statement on its site to justify why the NA engine and not a CRDi equivalent (JTD, MJD or whatever they call it) which "we invented"... then it used to go on harping about the "advance"d NA engine... drive by wire et al. Maybe they have removed it now.

EDIT: Whoa... hrag beat me to it. Ok, now he has got it by the exact wordings I guess. Good work hrag.

[speedzak]

Hmmm.... People have dug up quiet a lot of resources in this very healthy discussion. Kudos to team-bhp! If not for this forum, we would have never known about all this.

As being a Harthaal here, I quiet had a good job reading this thread. Thanks everybody. Especially to the so-called YaF..... Without you guys, it wouldn't have been so nice.