Tata to become entry level brand-Fiat premium

abhibh · 28th May 2007, 14:55

Well i guessed this same thing when i just saw the INDIGO DICOR ad in the newspaper saying "Technomical" - Technology doesn't have to come at a price

...

theMAG · 28th May 2007, 15:04

I have a sudden urge now - to buy me a Fiat Safari 2.2L Dicor. On 2nd thought, that name doesnt lend itself to resale value. So I've now decided to settle for the Tata Safari 2.2L Dicor- when its out.

spadival · 28th May 2007, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by typeOnegative

Hmmmm. So things are moving as predicted/expected by many here. Congrats team-BHP.

They have been far outnumbered by many here who have predicted Fiat India's demise..

Steeroid · 28th May 2007, 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by spadival

They have been far outnumbered by many here who have predicted Fiat India's demise..

Yeah and you're reading the Obituary.

hydrashok · 28th May 2007, 15:37

Wow! Another FIAT bashing thread. *Yawn*

spadival · 28th May 2007, 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Yeah and you're reading the Obituary.

Whose? Fiat ya Tata ?

finneyp · 28th May 2007, 15:42

What a irony, whatever Fiat does - whether good or bad, people always have stones ready for them!

Fiat, please go-ahead & bring on the Grande Punto, Linea, Bravo etc!

Zappo · 28th May 2007, 15:45

Spadival, you fancy yourself reading Tata's obituary mate?

That will take some doing dude.

Edit : Finneyp, irony is in the way some of you have this knack of turning every discussion into a war. I can already see where it is headed now. It was going pretty nice, with discussions on the pros and cons of the new arrangement when all of a sudden spadival had to make that unnecessary comment. And of course you were waiting in the wings to take it over from there.

GTO · 28th May 2007, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrag

Its a subtle message from Tata.

Tata: Affordable cars
FIAT: Overpriced passion

Took the words right out of my mouth! When I read the thread title, I thought"

Tata = We get to price our products competitively. After all, we are about value.

Fiat = Over-priced! And right out of the price band where it counts.

RX135 · 28th May 2007, 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zappo

Finneyp, irony is in the way you Fiat fan boys have this knack of turning every discussion into a war. I can already see where it is headed now.

OT: Let's cut this crap. Being a Fiat fan doesn't necessarily mean Fiat Fanatic. I am undoubtedly a Fiat fan, but definitely not fanatic. There are quite a few other Fiat fans on this forum, who are not fanatic either (if you insist, I can name them). If there are few fanatics, they are there everywhere for every brand.

So, please stop associating anything, that is bad, with Fiat.

Now that I am done with the ranting, please go ahead with your discussion on this move.

spadival · 28th May 2007, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zappo

Spadival, you fancy yourself reading Tata's obituary mate?

That will take some doing dude..

Already done (Not by me of course

)..Actually, there were quite a few who wrote Tata motor's obituary (and indeed the entire Tata group's obituary) , when they launched the Indica V0.001. It needed a visionary like Ratan Tata to look beyond the failures and prove everyone wrong. Its the same guy who is sitting on Fiat's board now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zappo

Edit : Finneyp, irony is in the way some of you have this knack of turning every discussion into a war. I can already see where it is headed now. It was going pretty nice, with discussions on the pros and cons of the new arrangement when all of a sudden spadival had to make that unnecessary comment. And of course you were waiting in the wings to take it over from there.

Unnecessary or not.. I made a factual statement, purely going by numbers.

sgmuser · 28th May 2007, 16:01

I see this way :
Fiat : Too good at technology, be it either engine (MJTD, Petrol engines like the ones in Alfa Romeo) or build or even design. They are far more sophisticated than TATA in R&D.

TATA : Too good at product pricing, market research thus marketing and not but not least strong foot hold of Network across India.

Its the marriage of convenience and hopefully fruitful!

Both complement each other and trying to make sense out of their individual advantages.

In then end, we (the regular customers, I mean) are going to benefit out of this for sure.

esteem_lover · 28th May 2007, 16:28

So, will that be curtains for palio & any other such cars ? Fiat range should be starting at 6.5L plus. wow! I dont think there will be many fans in that range.

deepakhon · 28th May 2007, 16:30

Guys, let us stop degenerating this thread into more mindless discussions. Let us first examine the news for what it is worth and discuss the same.

The news is that Fiat is supposed to take the "high end" portion of Tata-Fiat Partnership whereas Tata will take up the entry level portion. The idea is to have both of them eying different sections of the market and not competing between themselves for the share of the market. In reality, this does not look like where they are currently.

For example, Tata is offering its Indi* series, which are sheer VFM. Palio Stile is competing against Indica Petrol (OK, if you look at the market share, I certainly will not say that Stile is any competition to anyone, let alone Tata, but theoretically speaking, they are competing). If you look at the present Indica 1.2 and Palio 1.1 Stile, is the Stile worth the premium over Indica 1.2? Definitely not, in my opinion.

In the premium hatch segment, Indica does not have anything yet, whereas Palio is present in the 1.6 Stile guise. Again, the sales numbers do not warrant it being named a competitor to any one.

There is no Petra range to compete against Indigo range.

Also, I really doubt if Palio D is still being manufactured by Fiat India. So, a competition to Indica D (both NA and Turbo) is ruled out.

That leaves Adventure and Indigo Petrol. Both sell in such small numbers and hence there is nothing to write about both of them in terms of sales.

Now, is Fiat really that premium brand? Is it not a value proposition by itself? If you consider 1.1 Stile, no. But if we consider 1.6 Stile and Adventure, yes.

Right now, whatever Fiat has is either a value proposition or an over priced one for whatever it offers. So, the "premium" will have to be Punto and Linea, both of which are yet to come. Similarly, Indica V3 is yet to arrive. Where will Tata position Indica v3? There is a possibility that Palio will have to go, at least the 1.1 Stile. So, the line up will include 1 lakh car, Indica V2, v3, Palio 1.1 (?), Palio 1.6, Punto, Indigo, Indigo XL, Adventure, Linea, Safari. This will cover almost all segments till around 11 lakh.

Add to that, there is much more complication with the 1.3 JTD being used by both Tata and Fiat and Tata not supporting the sales of Fiat Dsl cars. This arrangement is yet unclear to me and there are a lot of loose ends which need to be tidied up. I think they have a broad outline of how they are planning to proceed, but the details need to be nailed yet. As of now, it is a wait and watch for me.

Again, I have a feeling that Fiat is planning to make money with the sale of its dsl engine technology rather than its own cars. It is becoming more like a component manufacturer like Bosch.

Zappo · 28th May 2007, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by RX135

OT: Let's cut this crap. Being a Fiat fan doesn't necessarily mean Fiat Fanatic. I am undoubtedly a Fiat fan, but definitely not fanatic. There are quite a few other Fiat fans on this forum, who are not fanatic either (if you insist, I can name them). If there are few fanatics, they are there everywhere for every brand.

So, please stop associating anything, that is bad, with Fiat.

Now that I am done with the ranting, please go ahead with your discussion on this move.

You do not have to name the fanatics and the sane. We all know that. As much as we do and see the ones who jump up at every opportunity and start brandishing their swords at the mythical devils. No one ever said every Fiat fan is a fanatic but there are quite a few who fit that bill as well.

And you are asking about cutting the crap? Why don't you make the beginning mate? It was a discussion, and a very civilized one at that till some of you unnecessarily dragged the whole thing into the same quadrant zero all over again.

And I quote you "So, please stop associating anything, that is bad, with Fiat."... Where did you get that from? Stop dropping these bombastic one liners over and over without the need. They have started sounding like broken records. In a discussion on the strategy of Tata-Fiat combine where did you see any bad and good and its association to Fiat? Please do not bring in unnecessary things into every thread and spoil things.

28th May 2007, 14:55	#16
abhibh Senior - BHPian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Back in the HOOD near you! Posts: 2,768 Thanked: 39 Times	Well i guessed this same thing when i just saw the INDIGO DICOR ad in the newspaper saying "Technomical" - Technology doesn't have to come at a price ...
	() Thanks

28th May 2007, 15:04	#17
theMAG Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: May 2006 Location: Avon, CT Posts: 7,217 Thanked: 1,807 Times View My Garage	I have a sudden urge now - to buy me a Fiat Safari 2.2L Dicor. On 2nd thought, that name doesnt lend itself to resale value. So I've now decided to settle for the Tata Safari 2.2L Dicor- when its out.
	() Thanks

28th May 2007, 15:37	#20
hydrashok Senior - BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: In my Office Posts: 2,528 Thanked: 17 Times View My Garage	Wow! Another FIAT bashing thread. Yawn
	() Thanks

28th May 2007, 15:42	#22
finneyp Senior - BHPian Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 2,716 Thanked: 319 Times View My Garage	What a irony, whatever Fiat does - whether good or bad, people always have stones ready for them! Fiat, please go-ahead & bring on the Grande Punto, Linea, Bravo etc!
	() Thanks

28th May 2007, 15:45	#23
Zappo Team-BHP Support Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 5,922 Thanked: 2,698 Times	Spadival, you fancy yourself reading Tata's obituary mate? That will take some doing dude. Edit : Finneyp, irony is in the way some of you have this knack of turning every discussion into a war. I can already see where it is headed now. It was going pretty nice, with discussions on the pros and cons of the new arrangement when all of a sudden spadival had to make that unnecessary comment. And of course you were waiting in the wings to take it over from there. Last edited by Zappo : 28th May 2007 at 15:52.
	() Thanks

28th May 2007, 16:01	#27
sgmuser BHPian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Chennai Posts: 755 Thanked: 1,123 Times View My Garage	I see this way : Fiat : Too good at technology, be it either engine (MJTD, Petrol engines like the ones in Alfa Romeo) or build or even design. They are far more sophisticated than TATA in R&D. TATA : Too good at product pricing, market research thus marketing and not but not least strong foot hold of Network across India. Its the marriage of convenience and hopefully fruitful! Both complement each other and trying to make sense out of their individual advantages. In then end, we (the regular customers, I mean) are going to benefit out of this for sure. Last edited by sgmuser : 28th May 2007 at 16:04.
	() Thanks

28th May 2007, 16:28	#28
esteem_lover Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Madras/Py Posts: 7,556 Thanked: 502 Times View My Garage	So, will that be curtains for palio & any other such cars ? Fiat range should be starting at 6.5L plus. wow! I dont think there will be many fans in that range.
	() Thanks

28th May 2007, 16:30	#29
deepakhon Senior - BHPian Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,441 Thanked: 65 Times	Guys, let us stop degenerating this thread into more mindless discussions. Let us first examine the news for what it is worth and discuss the same. The news is that Fiat is supposed to take the "high end" portion of Tata-Fiat Partnership whereas Tata will take up the entry level portion. The idea is to have both of them eying different sections of the market and not competing between themselves for the share of the market. In reality, this does not look like where they are currently. For example, Tata is offering its Indi* series, which are sheer VFM. Palio Stile is competing against Indica Petrol (OK, if you look at the market share, I certainly will not say that Stile is any competition to anyone, let alone Tata, but theoretically speaking, they are competing). If you look at the present Indica 1.2 and Palio 1.1 Stile, is the Stile worth the premium over Indica 1.2? Definitely not, in my opinion. In the premium hatch segment, Indica does not have anything yet, whereas Palio is present in the 1.6 Stile guise. Again, the sales numbers do not warrant it being named a competitor to any one. There is no Petra range to compete against Indigo range. Also, I really doubt if Palio D is still being manufactured by Fiat India. So, a competition to Indica D (both NA and Turbo) is ruled out. That leaves Adventure and Indigo Petrol. Both sell in such small numbers and hence there is nothing to write about both of them in terms of sales. Now, is Fiat really that premium brand? Is it not a value proposition by itself? If you consider 1.1 Stile, no. But if we consider 1.6 Stile and Adventure, yes. Right now, whatever Fiat has is either a value proposition or an over priced one for whatever it offers. So, the "premium" will have to be Punto and Linea, both of which are yet to come. Similarly, Indica V3 is yet to arrive. Where will Tata position Indica v3? There is a possibility that Palio will have to go, at least the 1.1 Stile. So, the line up will include 1 lakh car, Indica V2, v3, Palio 1.1 (?), Palio 1.6, Punto, Indigo, Indigo XL, Adventure, Linea, Safari. This will cover almost all segments till around 11 lakh. Add to that, there is much more complication with the 1.3 JTD being used by both Tata and Fiat and Tata not supporting the sales of Fiat Dsl cars. This arrangement is yet unclear to me and there are a lot of loose ends which need to be tidied up. I think they have a broad outline of how they are planning to proceed, but the details need to be nailed yet. As of now, it is a wait and watch for me. Again, I have a feeling that Fiat is planning to make money with the sale of its dsl engine technology rather than its own cars. It is becoming more like a component manufacturer like Bosch.
	() Thanks