[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

I think it's not just auto fold that is removed. They have removed complete electric folding mirrors which is not programming or one pin. It's the entire motor and circuit to fold the mirror electronically. You have to fold them by hand now.

Are you 100% sure ? Because that's what I thought, and replied thus :

Originally Posted by venkyhere

The body control module (BCM) , alongwith any of it's underlings (window control module, lock control module, mirror control module, etc....) is responsible for handling all of the cars non-engine related features/tasks.
This is a powerful microcontroller (in fact, almost a computer) on a PCB, with zillions of pins, connectors and wires going-in/coming-out. The user control buttons, various sensors and various actuators (mostly stepper motors) installed at various locations in the car send info and receive commands from this BCM.
This BCM hardware and it's software doesn't change from one variant of the car to the other. It will be too much of a cost disadvantage and validation headache, to carry different hardware for different variants of a car model. Most of the time, different models (across market segments, even) within a company can share the same BCM. The 'chip' are the things on the PCB, out of which the main one is the microcontroller.

Q : So how are different variants possible ?
Simple sofware settings or "configured flags" at the time of installation of the thing within a car.

Q : So where does cost saving come from , for lower variants of a model ?
A : The number of wires in the wiring loom, the number of sensors and actuators reduces, in base and mid variants, compared to the top variant of the car. Correspondingly the BCM software is modified so that it 'knows' which car it is sitting in and which of the features to consider 'valid' and which of them to consider 'dummy/invalid' so that no errors pop up.

Hence, the absence of electric-window-folding is not because of 'chip shortage' (that's just an excuse that every shortcoming can now be swept under) , it's clear cost-cutting.

However, the way the thread was going, I thought I misinterpreted, and indeed the 'auto-fold/unfold' is the only thing that's gone, and that pressing a button would still 'fold/unfold' the ORVM. Then I replied with this :

Originally Posted by venkyhere

If the manual "electric fold/unfold ORVM" button is available, and just the auto-fold/unfold is omitted, this could be because of some pin availability restriction to wire it up to the BCM. If the manual folding button is directly connected to the ORVMs (sending power to the stepper motors that 'fold' the ORVM, without informing/involving the BCM) , then probably 1 pin on the BCM's PCB (which can be used for some other purpose) and 1 pair of wires are saved. Because when we lock/unlock the car, the lock/unlock signal travels wirelessly to the BCM from the keyfob, the BCM then sends power pulses to the stepper motors present in the door lock and also the indicators. In case of auto-fold-unfold ORVM is present as a feature when lock/unlock pressed, the BCM also needs to send power pulses to the 'folding' stepper motors (different from the mirror angle adjusting motors) in the ORVMs. Probably VAG team decided to save one PCB pin that was erstwhile doing this job and re-purpose it for something else. Then say "chip shortage" and convince people that this has something to do with that.

Whichever be the case - whether the electric fold/unfold itself is removed or whether only the 'auto' fold/unfold is removed, the stepper motor control (could well be a simple dc motor with a limit switch, just like window winder motors) would most likely be part of the main BCM board, and I don't see (or I don't know enough to see) how 'chip shortage' can cause this feature delete.

[shancz]

Its clear now, what Skoda has pulled-off here is a price increase without increasing the price

Not to forget Mahindra did something similar by removing the knee airbag and downgrading the rear center passenger's seat belt to a lap belt.

Yet another price increase would've hit the sales further as the numbers on the sheet don't lie so they took the other route which in my books is taking customers for a ride.

Seems like the underlying theme of their India 2.0 strategy is to exploit the missing customer protections, general "image" and trust of customers and fleece them to maximize profits either before the "market" "matures" to paying Kodiaq money or they decide to leave with some cash in hand.
Seems too much? I agree but if I were a Kushaq owner and discover post purchase that I have to get down and fold my mirrors while the guy in the i20/i10/ignis walks off and his mirrors close behind him, that hurts and not sure how the "street cred of owning a Skoda" would hold.

A new frontier for the ICB (The Indian Car Buyer | Struggling with problems in brand new cars).

[CeeBeeR]

Originally Posted by Kosfactor

Would you still buy a T-Roc or Karoq if it was missing a power folding mirror?

No, I wouldn't.
Oh. Should I have been more clearer? "If the T-Roc were available with power fold windows, I would've booked it without a second thought"
Funny that such an ubiquitous feature for any car above a certain price range has to be explicitly stated.
I booked the Kushaq 1.5 DSG because driving pleasure matters. I'll happily take the risk of having a DSG and losing out on good to have features like the panoramic sunroof, digital cluster etc
I have cancelled my Kushaq booking because driving pleasure with a compromised driving comfort isn't something I can live with.

[Mickey1986]

Originally Posted by CeeBeeR

No, I wouldn't.
Oh. Should I have been more clearer? "If the T-Roc were available with power fold windows, I would've booked it without a second thought"
Funny that such an ubiquitous feature for any car above a certain price range has to be explicitly stated.
I booked the Kushaq 1.5 DSG because driving pleasure matters. I'll happily take the risk of having a DSG and losing out on good to have features like the panoramic sunroof, digital cluster etc
I have cancelled my Kushaq booking because driving pleasure with a compromised driving comfort isn't something I can live with.

I am in the same boat but then the options are too too bleak. Hyundai/ Kia are not something of my liking due to their built quality. Also in my opinion long term confidence and engine power are somethings which an individual enjoy the most at least for me as I have been driving bare minimum Ecosport 1.5tdci diesel since 2013(ambiente).
What I don’t like here is that Škoda /VW aren’t being customer centric here. They aren’t saying that due to shortage we can’t you this feature and hence, we have decreased the price for now or we will provide retrofits later on. I mean this is how you build trust with people.

[Metallicar]

This OVRM autofold thing is down to personal preferences and expectations. It may vary from person to person. When I bought my first car which was Honda Brio, I used to fold the mirrors by hand without giving it a second thought. Then I got a VW jetta and now I fold them electrically whenever required. Its a boon if you are stuck in very congested space. At this price point this decade old feature should be there.

Secondly anyone getting a Taigun/Kushaq is already sacrificing on interiors, features, space, build etc. Why are they (VW/Skoda) adding salt by removing auto fold OVRM too?

[headers]

Originally Posted by Metallicar

This OVRM autofold thing is down to personal preferences and expectations. It may vary from person to person. When I bought my first car which was Honda Brio, I used to fold the mirrors by hand without giving it a second thought. Then I got a VW jetta and now I fold them electrically whenever required. Its a boon if you are stuck in very congested space. At this price point this decade old feature should be there.

Secondly anyone getting a Taigun/Kushaq is already sacrificing on interiors, features, space, build etc. Why are they (VW/Skoda) adding salt by removing auto fold OVRM too?

True that - Skoda group thinks they are ultra smart marketing guys. While the products are superb to drive, the exact opposite is experienced with the service centres.

The cars are fine engineering pieces and it takes more than an average mechanic to even reset the service interval remninders. Not everyone who has the equipment suited are aware on its operational complexities.

Though I love them personally, these thoughts of geting stuck with some unsolvable issues stand RIGHT in my way of purchase!!

added to these the recent focus of most service centres is to sell the unsuspecting customer unwanted polishes and coatings that are pointless especially as these vehicles have better material control and processes unlike the small car market under 10 lakhs.

[Akshay6988]

The year is 2030 - Skoda Kushaq is offered with only mechanical features no fancy electronics - you get the engine, seats, chassis and that's it. Want ICE - pftt why you "driving enthusiasts" need to listen music huh ? Want some creature comforts - Nope we don't do that here at Skoda cars ! Aren't you getting "superior drivers car" ? Few posts here are really funny. I mean come on guys ! A car that costs above average 15 lakh ₹, in today's age, doesn't come with electrically foldable mirrors ! What nonsense is this. Skoda needs to bashed here, how much they have saved by omitting this feature ? The pump failure and now these cheap cost cutting tactics - what a grand start to VAG group's India 2.0 campaign ! People arguing that it is not a big deal and you can manually fold the mirror - Yes you absolutely can, but electrically foldable mirrors come handy in lot of situations - tight parking spaces, stuck in traffic jams where bikers are going through gaps between cars to name a few. Kushaq being a wide car, needs that feature IMO.

[venkyhere]

Originally Posted by Akshay6988

The year is 2030 - Skoda Kushaq is offered with only mechanical features no fancy electronics - you get the engine, seats, chassis and that's it. Want ICE - pftt why you "driving enthusiasts" need to listen music huh ? Want some creature comforts - Nope we don't do that here at Skoda cars ! Aren't you getting "superior drivers car" ? Few posts here are really funny. I mean come on guys ! A car that costs above average 15 lakh ₹, in today's age, doesn't come with electrically foldable mirrors ! What nonsense is this. Skoda needs to bashed here, how much they have saved by omitting this feature ? The pump failure and now these cheap cost cutting tactics - what a grand start to VAG group's India 2.0 campaign ! People arguing that it is not a big deal and you can manually fold the mirror - Yes you absolutely can, but electrically foldable mirrors come handy in lot of situations - tight parking spaces, stuck in traffic jams where bikers are going through gaps between cars to name a few. Kushaq being a wide car, needs that feature IMO.

I hear the sarcasm, but many of the members are talking about 'electric folding mirrors' as if the criticality of that feature is on par with something like an automatic gearbox or an indicator stalk or the presence of ORVMs itself. How old are 'electrically folding mirrors' as a feature in the non-luxury segment in India ? decades old ? 10 years old ? 5 years old ? probably ~3 years old. How were all of us driving cars then, 3-4 years ago, without this mission-critical feature ? Did we not drive through narrow roads, or did we just park and walk instead ?

I am not justifying Skoda, far from it. In fact, I am calling out the cunningness in the way they have swept this feature delete to save cost, under the "chip shortage" carpet. All I am saying is, whether to buy this car or not, hinging on electric-foldable ORVMs is a bit hard to digest. Things like sunroof, android HU, multi-speaker sound system, rear AC vents etc etc have been seen in this forum, to be pivotal points on which members have decided to buy/not-buy some car models. However, seeing that electric-folding mirrors is as pivotal in deciding yes/no is catching some of us members by surprise. That's all.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

However, seeing that electric-folding mirrors is as pivotal in deciding yes/no is catching some of us members by surprise.

It's not about the feature in a car its about not having that feature in a 15-20 lakh car.
Skoda/VW are expected to be leading the game not going back due to whatever reason.

We did fold mirrors but then we also rolled windows so IMHO this isn't just an inconvenience but going back and still paying today's money.

If they're removing the feature then they should reduce the sticker price as well and communicate the same to buyers, that would be fair and those who think its an essential feature will look elsewhere.
If they track that data it would be an interesting analysis, IMHO

[CeeBeeR]

They had several options :
1) Limit this deletion to all variants except the top variant.
2) Promise a retro fit in the coming days/months.
3) Remove some other functionality which would cause some inconvenience but wouldn't result them in doing aerobics in the car.

I could have lived with all these options.
I have a 4th gen Honda City which has these power mirrors. After using the convenience of that feature, I can't train my mind to pay 5 lakhs more for a different car and take 2 steps back in uaer convenience.
Most of the people, including me, who have cancelled are okay with the loss of auto fold mirrors because that is more of a stylistic feature and we can live without it, but not the entire power mirrors component.

[nitkel]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

I hear the sarcasm, but many of the members are talking about 'electric folding mirrors' as if the criticality of that feature is on par with something like an automatic gearbox or an indicator stalk or the presence of ORVMs itself. How old are 'electrically folding mirrors' as a feature in the non-luxury segment in India ? However, seeing that electric-folding mirrors is as pivotal in deciding yes/no is catching some of us members by surprise. That's all.

For the non-luxury segment, power folding mirrors were first seen in the 1st gen I20 I believe. That's circa 2008-9! The thing is, all these convenience features are what make a car feel worth the money you pay for, especially when car prices rise faster than the stock market index. Also, since when did an SUV like the Kushaq start becoming a driving enthusiasts choice? Agreed it handles well for an SUV, but it ain't no corner carver! Simply put, deleting essential features without a discount or retrofit promise is just bad business sense from VAG.

[Silverfire]

Poor form by Škoda-VW management if true.
A good product is being slowly destroyed by poor product planning and variant distribution choices. Instead of taking the fight to the Koreans the VW group is hitting self goals
1. Went for smaller dimensions vs their direct rivals, starting their platform off on a disadvantage
2. No true top end model (even if it would have been a lakh or so more expensive) which competes with the Koreans on features e.g panoramic sunroof, electric seats
3. Average interiors
4. Product defects at launch
5. Now deleting the basic features they had as well

Both the Kushaq and Taigun seem to be targeted at Premium buyers (those who are ok with expensive service, lower reliability, lower mileage, higher price vs Koreans in exchange for Brand + German quality + driving performance). But the current set of decisions will alienate most such buyers.

I was hoping the India 2.0 would be a success giving us access to good VW cars. With these kind of moves it looks difficult. Neither will they get volumes nor be a hit with premium buyers.

[venkyhere]

Maybe I am the odd man/dark sheep here.

In my 10+ years of driving, I haven't encountered a scenario where I felt the need to fold my mirrors, I don't even fold them when parking. If at all someone tries to come too close to the car (parking/squeezing in crawling traffic etc), the ORVM will take the hit and probably save multiple body panels.

It is from this perspective/experience that I am unable to absorb the criticality of this electric fold/unfold feature. That's where my "what's the big deal" bias is coming from. Apologies, once again.

[sid3091]

Originally Posted by venkyhere

Maybe I am the odd man/dark sheep here.

In my 10+ years of driving, I haven't encountered a scenario where I felt the need to fold my mirrors, I don't even fold them when parking. If at all someone tries to come too close to the car (parking/squeezing in crawling traffic etc), the ORVM will take the hit and probably save multiple body panels.

It is from this perspective/experience that I am unable to absorb the criticality of this electric fold/unfold feature. That's where my "what's the big deal" bias is coming from. Apologies, once again.

I've had cars with this feature and without, and it's something that comes in handy when you least expect it. Also, autofolding on locking/unlocking the car is a great indicator for forgetful people like me who constantly worry if they've locked the car.

[shibujp]

Electric folding mirrors are an essential convenience feature. Especially in wider cars. When you get caught in tight situations folding the mirrors provide an essential extra few cms of clearance by folding them. And to step out to do this is crazy. At a stretch yes the driver side can be said to be okay. But what if you are travelling alone and need to fold the passenger side?

Deleting this feature is down right stupid but then it's Skoda. Not known for the brightest set of brains anyway. Personally for me an electric fold and auto AC is right on the top of my conveniences. Any car without this is a straight off delete. Hell even the family i10 came in 2011 with both of these. Perhaps Skoda thought that too many people were buying their products and wanted to maintain exclusivity like Ferrari.

Drive on,
Shibu