[shashanka]

This would seem to be a coup - of sorts! - for TaMo. Firstly a technical coup, combining an automatic DCT (wet clutch, no less!) using a planetary gear train. And placing it in the compact (< 4 m) segment at a starting price of 8.09 L. The Hyundai venue DCT has a starting price of 11.7 L. A stupendous difference of over 3 L+. If that is not a rip-off I'll eat my hat. No one is going to use a magnifying glass to pour over the bells & whistles which TaMo is equipping this car with. The vast majority of the buying public will go -" A DCT auto for 8.9 L, wow! That's for me!"

I just read Turbanator's review of the Lexus NX 350h, and discovered the planetary CVT/drive motor combination on the rear transaxle of the car. As elegant a piece of engineering as I've come across.

For my money, the Altroz DCT auto (technically certainly) is not too far behind.

[Kousie_Arima]

Why are people calling this VFM and when i20 was launched the Asta IVT on the 1.2 L (same price) they called it overpriced? I just don't get it. The IVT is such a great AT transmission specially for city drives.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by Kousie_Arima

Why are people calling this VFM and when i20 was launched the Asta IVT on the 1.2 L (same price) they called it overpriced? I just don't get it. The IVT is such a great AT transmission specially for city drives.

i20 IVT is almost 80-90K more expensive than equivalent Altroz DCA variants. Altroz is the cheapest proper automatic car you can buy today. Everything else is an AMT or iMT. Still I won't call i20 overpriced since that is the extra premium for Hyundai's quality and service center experience.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by padmrajravi

Tata at times advertises the creep function of automatic variants as hill-hold feature. Hexa AT never had an actual hill-hold function but was advertised as having one. In reality, it was just the creep function preventing the vehicle from rolling back and not actual brakes holding the car like in proper hill-hold feature. Even Nexon's hill hold is like this. I am inclined to think this is also the same marketing gimmick.
...

Good point on the creep function, however probably not a good idea on a DCT since it is a regular clutch that is used and doing this will definitely cause wear. Makes sense in a TC transmission.

Didn't the Hexa AT launch with ESP ? Even the Nexon has ESP as standard so it could be proper hill hold.

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by fiat_tarun

Good point on the creep function, however probably not a good idea on a DCT since it is a regular clutch that is used and doing this will definitely cause wear. Makes sense in a TC transmission.

Didn't the Hexa AT launch with ESP ? Even the Nexon has ESP as standard so it could be proper hill hold.

Hexa did not have ESP in AT variants. Maybe that was the reason they resorted to this.

Pre-facelift Nexon only had creep function advertised as hill hold. The current facelifted Nexon comes with proper hill hold. Check the posts on this page for more details.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...eview-219.html (Tata Nexon : Official Review)

[volkman10]

European DCT in the Altroz:



- Belgium-based powertrain systems supplier, Punch Powertrain's compact DCT system debuts with Tata Altroz

- Is also planning to launch a higher torque hybrid DCT variant, DT2, later this year for mid-segment vehicles for European and other global markets, which it says will make it a leading global supplier for hybrid DCT by 2024

-The wet-clutch, six-speed DCA is different from a conventional dual-clutch transmission (DCT) by the virtue of its separately-placed clutches, as well as a single layshaft unlike the DCT‘s two or three units. The patented new way of realising the dual clutch principle offers seamless DCT shifting, while using 35 percent less shifting components.

-Entails improved driving comfort even under challenging conditions, such as extreme ambient temperatures, high altitudes, and varied driving environments which includes uneven roads and stop-and-go driving.

-Through application of a wet-clutch design, the transmission offers superior performance on inclines and in stop-and-go-traffic.

-The invention was created and developed at its R&D centres in The Netherlands and Belgium, Punch Powertrain in line with its ‘local for local’ strategy will localise production and is establishing a support base for its customers in India.

Link

[i74js]

I strongly believe that the DCA dovetailed with a low torque output would act as a proper test bed for large scale application of transmission across multiple other Tata cars. Otherwise also, economy of scale will only tilt in favour of TML if they have enough demand for this transmission.

I can also imagine the newly acquired Ford plant may be used for production of this transmission (as it has a dedicated engine manufacturing capacity, which can be calibrated and configured for transmission manufacturing).

The way Tata’s are taking up their product positioning seriously, I would not say that there is something wrong in having a value for money automatic from their stable in the market.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by i74js

I strongly believe that the DCA dovetailed with a low torque output would act as a proper test bed for large scale application of transmission across multiple other Tata cars. Otherwise also, economy of scale will only tilt in favour of TML if they have enough demand for this transmission.

I can also imagine the newly acquired Ford plant may be used for production of this transmission (as it has a dedicated engine manufacturing capacity, which can be calibrated and configured for transmission manufacturing).

The way Tata’s are taking up their product positioning seriously, I would not say that there is something wrong in having a value for money automatic from their stable in the market.

I believe the gearbox is license manufactured by Kalyani's new facility in Pune. A big stumbling bloc for equipping Indian small cars with good automatics has been the cost factor. Hoping localisation of the DT1 helps resolve this, It's a popular unit with PSA and a myriad of big chinese manufacturers.

[The Rationalist]

Originally Posted by i74js

I can also imagine the newly acquired Ford plant may be used for production of this transmission (as it has a dedicated engine manufacturing capacity, which can be calibrated and configured for transmission manufacturing).

Ford isn’t selling it’s engine manufacturing unit at Sanand, it’s not part of the plant sale. Ford plans to continue building engines and export it for the foreseeable future.

[S.MJet]

85% of Altroz sales is from 1.2NA variants and that is the rational Tata mentions for launching DCA with 1.2NA along with lower price point advantage.

They expects 20% sales from DCA.

Here is conversation between Tata's Mohan Savarkar with Autocar India:

Q. What was the rationale behind launching the DCT with the 86hp, naturally aspirated engine, and not the 110hp, turbo-petrol mill?

A. The share of the naturally aspirated engine in Altroz’s sales is the highest, at about 85 percent. So, the provision of an automatic gearbox on the said engine is aligned with customer demand. And, then, there is also the aspect of (lowering) cost

Q. What share of Altroz sales do you expect from the DCT? Could the automatic option pull in additional buyers?

A. We certainly hope that our customers like the DCT (dual-clutch transmission) enough to make that happen. Having said that, the segment is seeing over 20 percent of its sales coming in from automatics, and we expect the same for the Altroz

Full Article

[deetjohn]

Originally Posted by S.MJet

85% of Altroz sales is from 1.2NA variants and that is the rational Tata mentions for launching DCA with 1.2NA along with lower price point advantage.

They expects 20% sales from DCA.

Here is conversation between Tata's Mohan Savarkar with Autocar India:

This is WW2 story is what comes to my mind when I hear this spin from Tata!

Selection Bias

During WWII, statistician Abraham Wald was asked to help the British decide where to add armor to their bombers. After analyzing the records, he recommended adding more armor to the places where there was no damage!

This seems backward at first, but Wald realized his data came from bombers that survived. That is, the British were only able to analyze the bombers that returned to England; those that were shot down over enemy territory were not part of their sample. These bombers’ wounds showed where they could afford to be hit. Said another way, the undamaged areas on the survivors showed where the lost planes must have been hit because the planes hit in those areas did not return from their missions.

Please note that my rant is not against you, but the Tata boffins!

[The Rationalist]

Listened to the interview with Mr. Mohan Savarkar, VP of Tata motors. What I could make out from the interview is that there is chance of turbo or diesel variant getting automatic any soon . I can understand equipping 1.2 NA with DCA, as numbers do matter. But not giving it on turbo is such a stupid move.

Smartphone was not made available by taking customer feedback about basic phones! You bring out a product and then give it to the customers, unless you give them a choice how would you know whether it will sell.

Altroz Turbo is selling around 2000 units a months, even 20% increase in sales will garner 5000 units a year at least. Given that the premium buyers will be from metros and would prefer automatics, the chance of selling higher numbers will be more.

https://youtu.be/W9TW9lytdkA

[ashutoshb]

85% of Altroz sales are of the NA variant, I get it why they chose it over the Turbo Petrol.

So, I guess the next car to see the DCT would be Punch, as its the same NA engine and requires the least amount of effort and testing.

Then, the Nexon and maybe then the Altroz Turbo Petrol.

[amol4184]

85% sales are of NA engine out of just two petrol engines or 85% of total sales including diesel model? Forget turbo petrol, the diesel AT would be even better.

[Durango Dude]

When it comes to transmissions, fully understand TaMo dragging it's feet: it has no automatic gear box tech, so launches a car and somewhere around the 50% mark of development they start shopping around for auto boxes that their clientele can afford and then they take their own sweet time to source it and and go to town as though they are doing their target clientele a huge favor. Just watch the mish mash of automatic gear boxes they've used with their "Indian" products. JLR is so "terrific" and "reliable" that they don't dare use even a decade old box in anyone of their Indian products. So far they have been able to only provide AMT's and we all know how they function. 1.2 NA engine is not known for it's drivability or refinement and slapping on some DCT is going to emasculate it even further. Tata service centers have enough headaches with 'half baked & rough around the edges' products they have to deal with and now a DCT from God knows where: they'll have their hands full.