Team-BHP > The Indian Car Scene


Closed Thread
  Search this Thread
1,871,198 views
Old 20th April 2022, 15:54   #91
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: KL 7
Posts: 2,368
Thanked: 6,209 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

An interesting piece on today's FT

Quote:

OPINION

For Carmakers Like Toyota, Hybrids Are A Hard Habit To Give Up

It is dangerous to defy a trend, but sometimes it can pay off. Toyota is a prime example. It is benefiting from its punchy bet on hybrid cars — a strategy at odds with the global shift towards battery electric cars. But will it run out of road?

The decades-old bet has rewarded the Japanese carmaker in the past year. Toyota has topped global sales rankings in the first quarter, even as peers around the world continue to struggle with component shortages.

A heavy reliance on hybrid models, which currently account for more than a quarter of Toyota’s sales, has given it an unexpected edge. Sales of hybrid versions of the RAV4, its top selling compact SUV, rose by double digits, even as overall sales fell.

The main difference between a hybrid car and an electric car is that the hybrid combines a conventional combustion engine with an electric motor to power the car. Because they have two fuel sources, hybrid cars offer improved fuel efficiency.

That comes in useful during a time of steep petrol prices. Consumers have flocked to hybrids and electric vehicles as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine resulted in a jump in the cost of energy. In the US, hybrid vehicles sales have closely tracked oil prices since last year, when hybrid car sales rose 76 per cent to a record high.

Chip shortages and supply chain disruptions have pushed out delivery times of electric cars. Fewer chips go into hybrid cars, which use older technology. Consumers who cannot wait for chip-intense electric cars to become more available and affordable have given a boost to sales of hybrids.

Rising car prices — both new and used — are another factor. As demand for vehicles outpaces supply, average monthly payments in the US for a new car are up 13 per cent in the first quarter, according to car information site Edmunds.com. This adds to steep increases from last year. Among low and middle-income households, the demographic most affected by rising petrol prices, the base-level Prius hybrid’s price tag of just over $24,000 is more than a fifth cheaper than comparable electric cars.

For manufacturers such as Toyota, hybrids are a hard habit to give up. The older technology used in hybrids — the first Prius was launched in 1997 — compared with battery electric counterparts means the cost of production is predictable. The profit margin Toyota and Honda make on each hybrid car sold reached parity with traditional petrol cars in 2009.

In contrast, margins on electric cars remain razor thin, with the exception of a handful of high-end models. Even General Motors, the maker of the Chevrolet Bolt EV, one of the most popular electric cars last year, only expects electric car margins to match what they are today for combustion-engine cars by the middle or later part of the decade.

Yet the drawbacks are hard to ignore. Neither the petrol engine nor the electric motor in hybrids can equal the performance of cars that are solely powered by petrol or batteries. The engineering of hybrids is far more complex, resulting in many more drivetrain parts. Given that the highest running cost comes from repairs to engines and replacing electric car batteries, hybrids can be expensive to maintain.

Nonetheless, renewed interest in the vehicles has convinced investors to value Toyota at almost 10 times next year’s earnings. That is more than double the valuation of European peers Volkswagen and BMW, both of which have proven success in battery electric cars.

Hybrids are cleaner than petrol cars, but still burn petrol. Most large economies want all cars on their roads to be electric eventually. From June, federal tax credits for purchasers of Toyota hybrids in the US will be phased out. In the UK, new sales of hybrids will be banned from 2035 — five years after pure petrol and diesel. The EU has announced plans to end the sale of non-electric cars by 2035.

It has been 25 years since the first Prius was launched but the market remains niche. Hybrids still make up just 5 per cent of annual US light vehicle sales. It has taken less than four years for EVs to reach 3 per cent.

Toyota’s strategy therefore looks risky. Its pipeline of new battery electric cars is drawn out. It remains heavily wedded to hybrids. As the global shift accelerates, shareholders may start to penalise any apparent slackening in a carmaker’s commitment to battery electrics.

june.yoon@ft.com
https://www.ft.com/content/ca52a4fd-...a-572913547684
shortbread is offline   (1) Thanks
Old 20th April 2022, 18:02   #92
Senior - BHPian
 
Venkatesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 8,208
Thanked: 43,328 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Toyota and Maruti’s upcoming midsize SUVs will come with Toyota’s strong hybrid tech and a big jump in fuel economy.

The Toyota D22’s strong hybrid system is likely to be a first in the midsize SUV segment, could be as fuel efficient as a hatchback.

Quote:
- SHEV tech will debut on Toyota’s upcoming Creta rival (D22) midsize SUV
- Strong hybrid system will be around 30-70 percent more fuel efficient
- It can be used on pure electric power for short distances
Source

Last edited by Venkatesh : 20th April 2022 at 18:11.
Venkatesh is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 21st April 2022, 08:16   #93
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 23,271
Thanked: 67,350 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

While Toyota is at its Hybrid Campaign, it is imminent the Toyota's mid sized SUV will debut first.

- Toyota's D22 (Corolla QUEST/ Corolla Cross ?) will be launched during Diwali

- Maruti's YFG in early 2023, likely at the Auto Expo.


Quote:
Toyota has notified dealers to explain the benefits of hybrid tech to all customers who are visiting the showroom.
Toyota dealers will be using Camry hybrid at the showroom to showcase the benefits of hybrid.
Those small dealers who do not have Camry hybrid on display, will be given one by Toyota for a period of 6 months – purely for the use of promoting hybrid tech among customers.
- Rumours are that the Rav4 will be launched soon




Link

Last edited by volkman10 : 21st April 2022 at 08:24.
volkman10 is offline   (7) Thanks
Old 21st April 2022, 09:27   #94
Distinguished - BHPian
 
DicKy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TVPM
Posts: 3,806
Thanked: 11,654 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
- Toyota's D22 (Corolla QUEST/ Corolla Cross ?) will be launched during Diwali
Hmm... using the Corolla brand is a no brainer, but does it mean the price would also reflect the ertswhile sedan's positiioning? I am hoping for a Creta rival, not a model whose base version may start from 17 lakhs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
- Maruti's YFG in early 2023, likely at the Auto Expo.
1. Big bro Toyota having it's way in the whole thing?
2. The Toyota version is going to be more expensive (hybrid only), so as to give it a headstart?
3. Maruti version is going to sell like hot cakes whether it is launched alongside or on a later date, so let Toytoa launch first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
- Rumours are that the Rav4 will be launched soon
Wow!!! Proper Toyotas galore. If they are going to price it competitively, it would be a great option for those who want a reliable monocoque between the 25 lakhs segment and the Germans. Tucson will lose whatever small market it had, i.e if Toyota doesn't decide that the RAV4 is a worthy Merc/BMW rival.

Is Toyota doing something like they did in the late 2000s? Launched the LC200 and Prado to make the Fortuner look good. Likewise, launching the Hilux and RAV4 to make the D22 look good and seem VFM.
DicKy is offline  
Old 21st April 2022, 17:41   #95
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 23,271
Thanked: 67,350 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Some speculations on the D22/YFG's powertrain and details:

Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder-2.jpg

Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder-1.jpg

Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder-3.jpg

- Powered by a self-charging hybrid powertrain, making it the first compact SUV in India to get it

- Hybrid powertrain likely to be 1.5-litre three cylinder Atkinson cycle unit like the Yaris Cross overseas

- Likely to utilise a localised iteration of Toyota’s TNGA architecture. ( hence the assembly is at TKM)

- Likely to be powered by Toyota’s latest 1.5-litre three cylinder petrol-hybrid powertrain, first debuted in the Yaris hatchback and Yaris Cross. For reference, the ICE engine and 80PS electric motor combined produce 115PS, with the former offering 120Nm torque, and the latter 141Nm. ( test mules seen point to this theory)

- The Yaris Cross hybrid front-wheel drive variant has a claimed fuel economy of up to 26.32kmpl

- Toyota’s new SUV could debut in June, expect a launch in August ( to follow the unveil and a later launch trend)

- SHEV can be driven in pure EV mode for up to 60 percent of the time and increase the engine’s fuel efficiency by 40 to 80 percent.

- It will also be offered as a shared model with Maruti Suzuki in India but Toyota will manufacture it for both brands


Toyota Yaris:

Yaris (3 cyld.1.5-litre hybrid engine (known internally by its M15A-FXE codename), exceptionally high thermal efficiency of 40%, which ensures that more of the energy potential from each drop of fuel is captured.
M15A-FXE runs on the Atkinson combustion cycle, which keeps the intake valves open for longer in order to delay the compression stroke and improve efficiency. It offers a maximum output of 91hp at 5,500rpm and peak torque of 120Nm at just 3,600rpm. A total system output of 116 PS, from a 91 hp/120 Nm 1,490 cc litre inline-three-cylinder Atkinson-cycle engine and a 79 hp/141 Nm electric motor.

More to come from the Toyota -Suzuki Collaboration:

Maruti Suzuki MD Takeuchi :

Quote:
Our relationship (Suzuki’s) with Toyota is like an iceberg what you see is only 10 percent and 90 percent is what you don’t

Link

Last edited by volkman10 : 21st April 2022 at 17:59.
volkman10 is offline   (6) Thanks
Old 21st April 2022, 18:21   #96
Distinguished - BHPian
 
BoneCollector's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: BIHAR
Posts: 3,196
Thanked: 10,797 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Maruti's 'YFG'( ?) seen on test again:
The spyshot posted in above post resembles the Yaris Cross posted below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Some speculations on the D22/YFG's powertrain and details:


Attachment 2299132
Are we getting the Yaris Cross now and the D22 later?
BoneCollector is offline  
Old 21st April 2022, 18:24   #97
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 23,271
Thanked: 67,350 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoneCollector View Post
The spyshot posted in above post resembles the Yaris Cross posted below.

Are we getting the Yaris Cross now and the D22 later?

Yaris Cross, Yaris Hatch along with D22 and YFG are being extensively tested for the localized hybrid system. The Hybrid System will be of the Yaris.

Makes no sense for Yaris Cross to co-exist with D22, unless one is Hybrid and the other a non-hybrid one.

Last edited by volkman10 : 21st April 2022 at 18:33.
volkman10 is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 22nd April 2022, 14:45   #98
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 23,271
Thanked: 67,350 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

As the unveil is a couple of months away more details/ speculations trickle in some known and unknown details trickle in.

- Toyota and Maruti have co-developed a new compact SUV for the Indian market.

- First model from Toyota that is being shared with Maruti Suzuki and having Toyota mechanicals.

- It will be manufactured for both brands at Toyota’s plant in Bengaluru.

- It will also offer one of Toyota’s global hybrid powertrains with a 1.5-litre petrol engine( dynamic force NA Petrol engine ), electric motor and battery pack.

- Yaris Cross was spotted for a reason - Powertrains are expected to replicate the Yaris Cross with a localized Hybrid system

- The 1.5L engine for the Hybrid ( M15A-FXE) 92hp, Hybrid power 116hp ( AT?)

- Non- Hybrid Engine 1.5L (M15A-FKS) 125hp /6600 rpm, 153Nm Torque (@~5000 rpm) - MT/AT ( 2wd/4wd ?)

Quote:
It is expected to borrow the powertrain of the Yaris Cross Hybrid which is offered in select countries. The Yaris Cross uses a 1.5-litre petrol engine, a battery and an electric motor, automatically switching between hybrid and pure EV modes. This setup has a claimed fuel efficiency of over 26kmpl. The SUV will also be offered with a more affordable combustion engine option, likely the same 1.5-litre petrol engine without any of the electric components.
Quote:
both expected to be similarly equipped in terms of features with identical designs for the cabin.

Link

Last edited by volkman10 : 22nd April 2022 at 14:47.
volkman10 is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 23rd April 2022, 09:08   #99
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 23,271
Thanked: 67,350 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

The upcoming Toyota/Maruti's SUV will be on the localized TNGA-B platform.

The smaller version of Toyota’s global modular architecture will be making its Indian debut.

Quote:
The TNGA-B platform underpins unibody vehicles in the B-segment or subcompact car, and subcompact crossover SUV categories.
The platform is offered in both front-wheel drive and all-wheel drive variants and is paired with a transverse engine. The platform also supports a wheelbase length of 2,550–2,560 mm (100.4–100.8 in).

Cars relevant to this platform - Toyota Aygo X, Yaris/ Cross, etc.
Quote:
Toyota will be localising its TNGA-B platform for its upcoming India-centric SUV.

The significant investment is justified since the SUV will also be sold as a Maruti Suzuki model.

It is similar to the strategy used by the Volkswagen Group when it localised its global MQB A0 platform for India.

It is compatible with hybrid powertrains like the one found in the Yaris Cross Hybrid.

Quote:
In order to ensure a competitive price, the carmaker will be localising as much of the car as possible. Since it has no immediate plans to offer any of its international models that are based on the existing TNGA-B platform in India, it would make sense to modify it to suit the market-specific needs.
Another benefit of the TNGA-B platform is that it is compatible with electrified powertrains.

Source:
volkman10 is offline   (10) Thanks
Old 23rd April 2022, 16:51   #100
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 115
Thanked: 86 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post

- Rumours are that the Rav4 will be launched soon
Is there any timelines on this? I spoke with a large dealer here in Mumbai and they were clueless about RAV4 but were more keen to excite me about the new Creta-rival that will be launching in May or afterwards. As per them this Creta-rival it is a sure shot winner.
curiosity is offline  
Old 25th April 2022, 10:02   #101
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: --
Posts: 23,271
Thanked: 67,350 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Maruti Suzuki and Toyota’s SUV coming soon; trial production begins.

- Trial production of the first SUV begins
- Unveil expected in June
- Expected to go on sale well before festive season
- Will have hybrid powertrains, but no diesel.
- The SUVs will be built around a modified and localised version of Toyota’s TNGA-B (or DNGA) platform.
- Some critical systems will be supplied by Toyota regulars, the bulk of the suppliers are from Maruti Suzuki’s set of component manufacturers

- The SUVs are expected to come powered by two petrol engines, each powered by a hybrid drive unit ( 1.5L)

- While the first will be a mild hybrid, the second will be a stronger one, delivering both higher power and considerably better fuel economy.

- Most of the components for these systems will be manufactured in India from the start of production

- Expect a feature rich product including sunroof, cooled seats and the works when these SUVs go on sale later this year.

- Cost will be a major differentiator as it takes on the Korean siblings.

Quote:
Maruti Suzuki’s suppliers helping deliver competitive costs, these SUVs could pose the first serious threat to the Creta and Seltos combo

Quote:
it is the first vehicle to be jointly developed and this will mean a slew of new systems and procedures. Here, being in sync will be extremely important and Toyota, as we understand, is very particular that everything functions with “machine-like precision
Quote:
The lack of a diesel option, which still accounts for 50 percent of the segment, could hamper penetration of this growing segment, and it remains to be seen how good an alternative the hybrid powertrain is

Name:  20220423041640_Suzuki_MID_SUV_light_grey.jpg
Views: 769
Size:  52.7 KB

Name:  20220423112200_Toyota_MID_SUV_Brown.jpg
Views: 749
Size:  51.5 KB


Link

Last edited by volkman10 : 25th April 2022 at 10:16.
volkman10 is offline   (20) Thanks
Old 25th April 2022, 11:27   #102
Distinguished - BHPian
 
DicKy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TVPM
Posts: 3,806
Thanked: 11,654 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
- Unveil expected in June
- Expected to go on sale well before festive season
An SA from Nippon Toyota said the model will be launched for sure by September.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
- Will have hybrid powertrains, but no diesel.
No diesel will not be a problem only if they launch the strong hybrid as a diesel alternative, and not as a cheaper alternative to BEV. That means a max premium of 1.5- 2 lakhs over the normal mild hybrid model.

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
- The SUVs will be built around a modified and localised version of Toyota’s TNGA-B (or DNGA) platform.
- Some critical systems will be supplied by Toyota regulars, the bulk of the suppliers are from Maruti Suzuki’s set of component manufacturers
Isn't the TNGA-B platform too small? But it is anyday better than a stretched DNGA platform. Hope Maruti suppliers doesn't mean too much of being cheap. Though this time sure they won't take safety lightly.
DicKy is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 25th April 2022, 13:42   #103
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 131
Thanked: 195 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

I hope these cars are structurally sound as in my opinion they seem behind Kia & Hyundai in areas of powertrain & design, no diesel option available & still that S-Cross like stance.
CafeRacer16 is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 25th April 2022, 13:54   #104
Distinguished - BHPian
 
CEF_Beasts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 2,718
Thanked: 17,802 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Quote:
Originally Posted by CafeRacer16 View Post
I hope these cars are structurally sound as in my opinion they seem behind Kia & Hyundai in areas of powertrain & design, no diesel option available & still that S-Cross like stance.
Honestly that S-Cross stance is because of Autocar’s rendering of the D22-YFG on the body of the new S-Cross which isn’t the case in reality.
CEF_Beasts is online now   (6) Thanks
Old 25th April 2022, 16:24   #105
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: kolkata
Posts: 72
Thanked: 183 Times
re: Maruti & Toyota's Creta-rivaling midsize SUV revealed - Urban Cruiser Hyryder

Quote:
Originally Posted by volkman10 View Post
Maruti Suzuki and Toyota’s SUV coming soon; trial production begins.
Looks almost Hector-ish in this.

Last edited by Aditya : 25th April 2022 at 19:47. Reason: Quoted text trimmed
abhi_ank is online now  
Closed Thread

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks