[AROO7]

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Are we sure diesel won't be affected. I'm a novice at this but I think I read somewhere that diesel can also be blended with ethanol and a quick Google search calls it e-diesel.

Blending ethanol with Diesel will open Pandora's box of problems because apart from vehicles Diesel is used in so many activities, especially in the rural areas.

Blending ethanol in Petrol won't see such problems as they are mostly used in 2-wheelers and 4-wheelers. But what pains me is the fact that most of the Indians are not so aware and might end up filling the E20 in their non-compliant vehicles. Another way of our government to make your vehicle ready for premature replacement.

[saisree]

Originally Posted by Carpainter

Are we sure diesel won't be affected. I'm a novice at this but I think I read somewhere that diesel can also be blended with ethanol and a quick Google search calls it e-diesel. So is it that our government is going to blend ethanol with petrol only and leave diesel alone.

My senses makes me believe that Diesel will be left out from the Ethanol blend. The entire commercial fleet is dependent on it and its near to impossible to make the fleet switch to new vehicles or to plug in addons to make them compliant with the new fuel.

This e-diesel is not a new one. IIRC, APSRTC did a test on this some 15-20 years back and the test failed miserably. Drivers complained of burnt smell .

Railways did start testing the Ethanol blended Diesel and one engine I know, is doing shunting duties in the Egmore Railway Station.

[SS-Traveller]

Originally Posted by enj0y_ride

"The Union Cabinet on Wednesday approved amendments to the National Policy on Biofuels, 2018, to advance the date by which fuel companies have to increase the percentage of ethanol in petrol to 20%, from 2030 to 2025. The policy of introducing 20% ethanol will take effect from April 1, 2023."

How related are this thread and this one (Union minister Nitin Gadkari wants BS4 norms to come back)?

[SoumenD]

Originally Posted by navrddy

But certainly feel sorry for those who bought extended warranty for their cars, Since E20 fuel rollout starts in Apr.2023. Now extended warranty would be void.

My car's standard 4 year warranty expires in 2023 April. Was almost certain of getting the extended warranty as Honda gives it upto 10 years. But if what you say is correct, I don't see a point of getting it anymore. Could you please share the source of this information?

I seriously hope 0% ethanol will be sold along with ethanol based one like we currently have Power & Normal.

[condor]

Originally Posted by saisree

My senses makes me believe that Diesel will be left out from the Ethanol blend. .

Bio-diesel is already coming in. IOCL's Xtrageen is in the open market. Bio-diesel is available in rural areas. One news item also reported a use in aircraft. I am sure state owned RTC's are trying it out.

*

On a related note, BS4 Diesel already has specified upto 5% mix.

*
Soon after IOCL rolled out Xtragreen, I tweeted to Tata Motors for information on the effect of blended diesel on our BS4 vehicles. This was also in view of Xtragreen. However, no response from them in almost 2 months.

Considering that BS4 diesel includes specification for a 5% mix, I was hoping that Tata Motors will have some info on this. But no luck.

So we are kind of in the dark. And bank on the point that a total switch wont really be done. We may, in due course, pay a little more for unblended diesel.

[anjan_c2007]

An existing thread discusses the technicalities of such blending and its effect on car engines. The present day, new BS VI petrol cars have specifications that these are compatible with usage of only up to 10% of blended ethanol in petrol. Some cars have it mentioned in their owners manuals too.

And for the older generation cars and two wheelers, these are not at all compatible for use even with such a 10% threshold. As clarified in an earlier thread, the fuel lines, carburettor and fuel pump gaskets, engine head gaskets tend to get hardened and rupture sooner or later. Ethanol being hygroscopic, if such blended fuel is kept in fuel tank during non usage is bound to create rusting of the tank's interiors. UK has introduced 10% ethanol blending wef 01/09/2021, but 5% ethanol blended fuel and also 97-99 octane petrol are alternatively available. Here in India once the blending becomes 20% even the older Morrises, Austins, M800's and other jalopy owners will be forced to buy such blended petrol. An alternative is the 95 octane petrol XP 95 that Indianoil is marketing, but only in select outlets.

The plus points are that a 10% blending reduces carbon dioxide emission by 20%. And ethanol is priced at around Rs 60=00 a litre and attracts only 5% GST. Hence the oil marketing companies are making windfall profits as not a single paisa thus saved even with the present day 8.3% blending has been passed on to the end consumer. We can just comprehend how much the cost of petrol per litre will get reduced with such 20% blending, but it is highly unlikely that such cost benefits will be passed to the consumer. No media report has ever spoken about it.

The octane rating of our petrol is just 91 presently, whereas in the UK it is 95. Higher octane petrol that is less polluting ensuring greater combustion of the fuel comes with riders. Its refining needs higher investments in the refineries that our government is not at all speaking about. The easier way is to use 20% ethanol blending with the archaic 91 octane petrol, putting all the burden on consumers. End of the day the politicians owning ethanol manufacturing plants laughs all the way to the bank.

An older thread for reference:-

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/vinta...ars-bikes.html (Warning! E10 ethanol-blended petrol can be damaging for older cars & bikes)

[Ritkon]

A serious part of this transition would be information. While we were in the transition phase from BS4 to BS6, I remember calling up a large number of petrol pumps in Kolkata to enquire whether they are dispensing BS6 compliant petrol, since we had just purchased a BS6 car and was really scared of what harm BS4 fuel would do to it. To my utter surprise, none of them (including COCO's) had no idea what fuel they were selling.

I see how most of the petrol-pump attendants would be similarly clueless whether they are dispensing E20 or E10 fuel and since E20 can do real harm to non-compliant engines, this is bound to become a serious issue. Let's face it, a major section of the Indian populace don't have any idea about effects of E20 in their vehicle.

Added to that is the fact that even if (that's a big if) E10 fuels are being sold at a premium (no guarantee as this too may be E20), they would be available at select locations only (bye bye road trips).

The only way is for the Government to make sure that E10 and E20 markings are clearly shown in the petrol pumps and E20 compliant vehicles have some sort of sticker on them, so that all other vehicles can be given E10 by default.

All in all, I see a massive nightmare for anyone who truly cares about their wheeled steed.

[navrddy]

Source of information is in everyone's owner manual. All cars sold until today (maybe excluding luxury vehicles, which have engines compatible till E85), are fit only till 10% Ethanol blend.
Manual clearly says, if Fuel > 10% ethanol blend is put, it voids manufacturer warranty.
I,am not sure, if every car manual has same wording, but probably similar wording.
I tried to contact (written) emails to major OEM's regarding clarification on existing selling vehicles, whether E20 fuel is ok and compatible. None of them (i repeat none) replied in email.
I heard some news, MSIL future new launches, will have engines compatible with E20 fuel. Probably new breeza, might one of them.Hopefully. I hoped new Baleno 2022 had it, but it looks like refresh one of Baleno will have E20 compatibility.
Feel sorry especially for vehicles with low fuel efficiency, double hit.

The painful part is there is lack of coherency between govt. agencies and OEms, End of the day consumers suffer.

Originally Posted by SoumenD

My car's standard 4 year warranty expires in 2023 April. Was almost certain of getting the extended warranty as Honda gives it upto 10 years. But if what you say is correct, I don't see a point of getting it anymore. Could you please share the source of this information?

I seriously hope 0% ethanol will be sold along with ethanol based one like we currently have Power & Normal.

[Livnletcarsliv]

Let us not jump the gun.
This is just a bill amendment. And of course, we all know how all the bills are passed in the present government.

I strongly feel that people opting for petrol cars will significantly reduce in another 3-4 years. EV's will totally kill almost all of the petrol models (and most of the diesel) for sure. And I am sure this ambiguity of E10/E20 fuel availability, the vehicle compatibility, and existing vehicle situation will eventually be clarified by the Government as well as OEMs.

[Raghu M]

Originally Posted by navrddy

I have been raising this topic since the last few months (~8 months) on team-bhp and also in my office circle. It seems nobody is bothered about this impact.

But I certainly feel sorry for those who bought extended warranty for their cars, which would be void once E20 fuel rollout starts in Apr 2023. To be frank OEMs fooled people in buying extended warranty at least for petrol vehicles, since they knew E20 fuel rollout from past 2 yrs.

According to my knowledge on E20 fuel impact on BSIV and BSVI vehicles (existing vehicles), expect to have performance/fuel efficiency drop of around 5-10%. On BS-III vehicles (like in my case), the drop is around 10-15%. Not to mention the impact on hardware, especially on rubber fuel lines(connecting hoses) and condensation of water in fuel tank. There would be some impact on fuel injection equipment as well, but probably wouldn't be noticeable.

I don't think the OEMs could have just fooled people by asking them to take extended warranty. The whole world would be aware of what's happening. One PIL and the car manufacturers will roll out free warranties. So, let's not be under the impression that something of this sort could happened. Point no. 2 - I don't think there is a study on how it impacts the mileage of a car leave alone the hardware and internal parts.

[aim120]

All the research papers and tests I have read, paint a sorry picture for metals and plastic exposed with petrol mixed with ethanol.
Pictures clearly show metals like aluminium, brass, steel/stainless steel disintegrating. Some plastics also deforming.
All carburetor 2 wheelers will be affected badly, since the carb as a bowl with fuel sitting in it. Even in fuel Injected vehicles nozzles, fuel pumps, tanks all need to be updated. Fuel tanks will start to rust, since ethanol absorbs water from the atmosphere.

Its alarming that no one is making noise. The manufacturers and the government will benefit here with more new sales and taxes from it. While the common man, old car/classic car lovers will have to make their cars a shelf queen.

I guess its time to buy some laboratory apparatus and remove the ethanol from the petrol.

[Mumbgamer]

Any idea where the ethanol in India is sourced from? There was an article on US corn based ethanol that said the use of corn based ethanol actually caused more harm that good.

https://www.reuters.com/business/env...ds-2022-02-14/

Carburettor gumming up is already a issue for my old model RE Bullet with current fuel. And premium fuel isn't really pocket friendly

[EV NXT]

Some interesting facts:

1. The Ford Model T could run on Ethanol or Petrol or even kerosene in 1908!

2. Henry Ford called Ethanol the fuel of the future:

https://petroleumservicecompany.com/...-use-gasoline/

For an entire decade, the primary fuel source in the United States was corn-based ethanol. The Ford Model T was built to run on gasoline and kerosene as well as ethanol, but neither option was considered the premium or preferable fuel source. In fact, ethanol was added in the early 20s to increase octane and reduce engine knocking so while advocates of pure gasoline argue for pure, alcohol-free fuels, the oxygenated blends have been proven to increase performance in most engines.

3. Citroen’s C3 SUV can run on Ethanol or Petrol. It has a flex engine.

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...042074371.html

4. The government has been asking OEM’s to come up with flex engines (flexible) that can run either on Ethanol or Petrol and will make it mandatory.

https://auto.hindustantimes.com/auto...245012125.html

[Doc_nerd]

I did not buy the kushaq for this same reason. No one has a clue on how E20 blend affects the engine. Somehow of all the companies only Triumph is making E25 compatible engines (as per their owner's manual). From the government point there is no clarity wether the E10 blend will be available along with the E20 blend.

[sumeethaldankar]

This reminds me of the time when petrol was moved from lead to unleaded type. We were all afraid the effect it would have on the older cars without the cat con but it turned out well.

I hope it does not impact much or the manafacturers of the fuel find ways to atleast reduce any ill effects of the fuel on non flex cars if the govt makes it mandatory to pour ethanol down our throats.