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Old 22nd June 2022, 11:24   #31
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Threads and maybe perspectives like these skew the market away from safer, dynamically sorted cars towards a bunch of cans with bigger screens and larger sunroofs to pop our heads out of. I'm not saying Tata, but even other good cars.

While I appreciate the effort the OP has put into the thread, indeed commendable, the basic idea is flawed in my opinion, Like mod crazy_driver said, it's comparing the flaws of one car to the positives of another.

If our forum was pettier we'd have other members pitching in why their cars are better and how their touchscreen AC is classier.

Design is subjective man, Don't think it's right to cancel something so easily
Quote:
New generation Tata Safari (Storme) ........ became more sissy looking from front and rear,

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Originally Posted by pqr View Post
Tata Motors 2.5 – Disastrous next generation and new product launch

On one side Tata launched the cheapest car and on the other side came up with a crossover – part MUV part SUV - more expensive than Toyota’s best seller Innova, and quality level of elevated Indica, ......

Aria actually had really good quality !

GTO mentions it in the official review too. The market wasn't ready for the car yet. That and the pricing is what failed the car.

Won't get into much detail over the headlight part, LED reflectors are cost cutting measures. Projectors are still the way to go.

Last edited by Aditya : 23rd June 2022 at 05:25. Reason: Typo
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Old 22nd June 2022, 11:27   #32
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

I believe more than chinks or misses the points mentioned by the OP, are more like improvement points or easy to address issues.
The main issue I feel is still the after sales service area. While there have been improvements in that area as well but some of the key frustrations that I still continue to have are -
1. Overcrowded service centres, if you check their network you will realise they have much more sales outlets than service outlets. Given that their sales have almost doubled compared to maybe 2 years back and their service intervals have halved, they should invest in increasing the ASS network.
2. Most of the time clueless service advisors. In the last 6 months I have tried 3 different ASS centers and everywhere only 1 - 2 advisors will be there whose answers / analyses of the complaint mentioned gives you the confidence that the person knows what he / she is talking about. All the other times, you never get that confidence with the service advisor. Its always as-if he/she is doing a trial / error method with the hope that something will click.
3. Completeness of the work done - Its never 100%. My latest examples - changed the rear wiper pipe and motor but forgot to order the nozzle. Result, there is small piece of pipe dangling in place of the nozzle to ensure the water spray (rather just a stream for now) falls on the rear window. During the same service, they opened up a lot of internal panels for fixing the rear wiper and while doing the same, messed up my rear camera wiring. It was working pretty well till it went to the service and now for the last 2 weeks I am without the rear camera. And there are so many other examples that point to the same issue, lack of sufficient control measures in place to check the quality of work done or maybe simply lack of motivation on part of the workers or that they are overburdened. But in any case it is something that the customer shouldn't have to bear.

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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:20   #33
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Clicked this today, maybe it belongs here

Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour-img_20220622_121101_504.jpg
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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:23   #34
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

I don't know why some people who comment are irrationally triggered because the OP chose Tata and not some other brand. Or that why Tata's negatives are highlighted and not the positives, or that OP is 'biased'. Read the headline, fellas. It's about 'chinks in their armor'. So the attempt is very clearly to point out what is lacking in their recent products, not that they aren't any good. Or that there are not other similar brands with similar chinks. None of which are relevant to a post about Tata's chinks and their products. Pointing out what's good about Tata just to balance the narrative, or why other similar brands aren't occupying OP's thoughts, or saying that Tata is making brisk sales so they must be doing something alright, are frankly childish, and not relevant to the discussion at hand. If you feel that strongly about some brand or against some brand I'm sure you're at liberty to make a different post that has something to say, and get your thoughts in.

I understand that some might feel personally invested with brands because they've bought it, and that's a good thing sometimes, but if it comes at the cost of critically evaluating the brand in question (which I'm given to understand is the very point of forums like teambhp, among other things) then you run the risk of making the transition from a fan to something akin to.. a cult member. I'm sure no one wants to be the latter. It also markedly deteriorates the quality and level of discussion at hand. Thank you!
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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:27   #35
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

It's not only about small infotainment screens and lack of some features. But electronics in Tata cars are more prone to malfunction comparing to its direct rivals and simply lacks reliability. We have seen many brand new Tata cars with malfunction in basic features like doors ajar warnings, auto folding ORVM, laggy screens and steering controls and what not. They really need to work on quality of electronics components and sensors as well as overall system integration.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:47   #36
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Very well analysed report. TATA think-tank teams need overhaul. A younger generation of car enthusiasts would help in improving designs. The other aspect is customer services after purchase. It's still a put-off.

Last edited by Axe77 : 23rd June 2022 at 05:40. Reason: Please avoid quoting a large post when responding. Inconveniences small screen users. {Axe: Abbreviation also edited}
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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:53   #37
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Brilliant analysis! TATA being a brand that literally represents us as a nation, we tend to be very emotionally involved with anything TATA and specially cars. What a long way they have come in under 25 years of selling passenger vehicles. While no car is perfect and we can always have a productive criticism, but it can't be ignored that they have managed to learn from their mistakes and have managed to turnaround for good well within a decade. Not many companies as large as TATA motors can do that this soon specially in the automotive space.
I am seriously considering the Harrier for my next car purchase, which will be sometime next year. If I go for it, it will be the first TATA in our family after one Maruti and 3 Hyundais. For me the 3 most important features on a car are safety, reliability and space.
I don't really care much about the gadgetry and gimmicks.
All that I need is good AC, power steering, power windows, music system, adjustable driver seat, windshield washer, and rear parking camera. Everything else is good to have, but not a deal breaker.

Last edited by ishan12 : 22nd June 2022 at 12:58.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 12:56   #38
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Hey, full marks for the detailed data presentation.

A lot of marks cut for a little lop sided interpretation of the data.

Tata's Safari and Harrier are just the same product (chassis and engine) with noticeable differences. And they are not the only ones, lots of companies these days develop scalable platforms that can function in different looking vehicles but essentially are the same, hence saving costs. Porsche Cayenne, Lambo Urus, Audi Q8 and I think even the Beneyaya are all the same.

So, their sales number have to be combined, as much as Alcazar and Creta should be too. Or if you really want to get a truer picture the Kia and Hyundai products should be treated as one.

In that sense, Tata isn't doing bad, whether it is eating into MG's share, or Mahindra's can be debated.

But, the new age Tata is fighting back.

Coming to safety. Tata has always been perceived to be safe. That's why the lack of score for Safari and Harrrier duo isn't really effecting their sales. I doubt if they scored a 5 star their sales will increase substantially. Anywho, Indians don't really care much about putting their money where safety is. Maruti and Hyundai and Kias still outsell everything. That Mahindra has good safety rating is an added bonus, don't think the Thar or XUV will have loss of sales if their ratings were lower. In fact to me the ratings are a way to build an image of safe cars, which Tatas anyway have. But like I said I don't think their renaissance is due to that.


To the point of modern cockpits, I think the glitz is overpowering, but usability of good old dials and tactile input still can't be matched. In fact I would go on to say that the old buttons and switches are even safer. You don't need to take your eyes off to change the temperature with buttons, but you do with touch based inputs. Though people want what they want, a modern looking cockpit is a differentiator and Tata is loosing out on that. But, a modern cockpit does need semiconductors, which are in short supply right now. And Tata's competitors are struggling. And since Tata didn't put all the bling bling it is profiting from their miseries. So, I guess it is working out for them. Once they have supply issues sorted, they can recover, but so can Tata. I mean look at Skoda launching the 10 inch multi media screens and then going to 8 inch. Feels bad. It woudn't have if they launched with 8 inch. I think it is a wise move to rationalize the interiors by Tata.

I read somewhere that headlight design is really expensive and while everyone might want the matrix LEDs, like many have said the ones that are with them work. They might not look cutting edge and modern, but if they work, they work. Though I agree with the OP that in perception TATA loses if these trinklets are missing.

I think one of the biggest thing Tata has done is with design. Somehow their design is now, for the lack of better word, more mature. It isn't great mind, or wow, but just mature. Which means their design ages well. Can't be said about the competitors. And this maturity in design is one of the reasons that a lot of people are thinking about putting money on a Tata product. That a lot of people are at least open to putting 20 big ones on a Tata product is a huge leap for the company.

The biggest chink with Tata is the lack of full commitment. This ails many other successful but conservative Indian brands. From TVS to Hero. They just lack that last mile drive to go after the premium with all they have. It seems like our parents and grand parents, they want to save some for the rainy days. Nothing wrong with it, but it is this that separates the great from the good. Tata is tbh on the brink of leapfrogging a lot of its competitors. If it can think big on EV, it can completely upend the dominance of most of its rivals. The biggest negative that I have for Tata is that they seem a little slow to take a leap from where they are. After a really long time they have the momentum, they should make the leap forward. Improve their service centres, bring in newer products. Develop better engines and technologies. You know go the whole hog now. I just hope its not too late by the time they decide to use this momentum to leapfrog, because the competitors aren't really sleeping.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 13:00   #39
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Brilliant analysis. Tata Motors have come a loooooong way, but I would like to point out another chink in their armour. viz. After Sales and Ongoing Service

I have owned the Indica eV2- sold it after a couple of years and swore - never again with Tata. Fast forward, last month I had booked the Safari top trim. But after booking, I spoke to a few friends with TML cars, and one of them advised "please visit the nearest Tata Motors Service Center- sit for an hour, an form your opinion" I did just that, and rushed back to cancel my booking. It reminded me a lot of my Indica ASS experience.

Customers not buying based on personal and anecdotal evidence, or selling their cars after just a short ownership period is difficult to track with regular metrics, but I am sure it is true in case of Tata Motors.

I hope TML continues to pay attention to this aspect. As for myself, I will wait till I have a couple of friends I know who can vouch for their amazing service center experience.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 13:11   #40
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

I thought we were here to discuss about the reviews, ownerships and information related to cars. Unsure how we are at a stage where brand bashing is a regular practice.

Is the OP trying to counter the recent Fuel Pump failures on the Hyundai vehicles? Or the Skodas?

It is very sad to see that people are actually buying or even considering vehicles looking at instrument clusters rather than the product as a whole. If a company is doing well, I am certain there do have some positives because the people mandates shows so. Maruti Suzuki being the leader, just for the simple fact that the availability of the service centres are unparalleled. Meanwhile Tata motors marketing on certain elements like safety and people make threads to bring them down on a public forum, that's not like Team-Bhp I am used to.

FYI : I do not own a Tata but this is one of the threads where you get to experience the brand bashing yet again. I am sure the mods will do something about it.

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Old 22nd June 2022, 13:57   #41
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Let's come to the meat of the question.

How much would we shell out (over the current prices) if Tata fixed all of the above chinks? And how many others will be ready to put in a similar amount?

Most of us (me including) would not even get a Harrier at 22/23 lakhs.

IMHO, the Tata passenger family lacks modular powertrains that can be used in a variety of ways (longitudinal/transverse/AMT/AT/MT/AWD/4x4). The 2.0 engine from fiat is a reasonable engine. However, the in-house engines are nowhere even close to what the competition offers (Hyundai, VW, Maruti). Bigger size only does it so much for the overall evaluation.

One of the reasons Tata should get into the EV space would be to get rid of its dependency on the ICE powertrain altogether.

The other area they should really focus on is the fit finish capability, especially of their high-end cars. I would accept a Safari at 20 l vs but not that at 27l with the way it is built. It can be my prejudice of using a VW & a Maruti for the last 6/9 years.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 14:02   #42
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

The fact that people still think that headlamp technology and screen size are chinks in an armour are exactly why we get unsafe cars with cheap builds.

It took a legislation to ensure that all new cars have 6 airbags.

It took a legislation to force people to wear seatbelts and helmets.

It took a legislation to ensure we get ABS as standard.

Tata also had the unreal JTP twins to give us the next-gen drivetrain. Not many people bought it. Presumably because it had halogen lamps.

Last edited by Aditya : 23rd June 2022 at 05:54. Reason: Toned down
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Old 22nd June 2022, 14:31   #43
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by veedub89 View Post
The fact that people still think that headlamp technology and screen size are chinks in an armour are exactly why we get unsafe cars with cheap builds.

It took a legislation to ensure that all new cars have 6 airbags.

It took a legislation to force people to wear seatbelts and helmets.

It took a legislation to ensure we get ABS as standard.

Tata also had the unreal JTP twins to give us the next-gen drivetrain. Not many people bought it. Presumably because it had halogen lamps.
1. It takes legislation across the world to create standards. No one does it for free. If you think the world did it without legislation and only India needs it, wake up. The world did it earlier than India did because India decided to trail the market so that we don't have to incur the cost of technology development so that people like me can afford cars.

2. While 6 airbags is a good thing for me, a large sect of the market especially the lower level will not benefit from it especially when you would stuff 7 people in a Spresso or 12 in a Bolero, or 18 in a Trax. Be mindful of which market/cars should be forced to offer the 6/8/12 airbags. There are more fundamental changes that would give you safer drives (tail lights on trucks for eg). Sadly no one talks of the fundamental stuff and wants to get protected in case of a crash that shouldn't even have happened. On top of that, I hate people for marketing their crash worthiness on the road rather than getting an NCAP done.

3. JTP twins were kicked out because of powertrain failures over anything else.

4. It will always be how much you value what for yourself vs what someone else does. So be accommodative and don't criticize people's wants. After all, customers are always right.

It's a chink that is pointed out and not something that is like facing Shoiab Akthar without any protection.

Last edited by Aditya : 23rd June 2022 at 05:54. Reason: Quoted text edited
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Old 22nd June 2022, 14:48   #44
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by Contrapunto View Post
Brilliant analysis. Tata Motors have come a loooooong way, but I would like to point out another chink in their armour. viz. After Sales and Ongoing Service
Have had a good experience at their Mumbai service centre (Puneet Motors, Worli which used to be Concorde). I did read a members post recently where they were denied EV charging so that's the other side of the spectrum with some of these.

If the product is good, ASS shouldn't be a deal breaker. You can have them do a pickup and drop and avoid the hassle of going there.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 14:57   #45
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

A very crisp and well researched article which shows how an Automobile manufacturer can reinvent itself, we see the Tata cars on road today and can surely be inspired by the sheer grit and commitment of the company, after the 2nd generation disasters and the Nano debacle they drew a roadmap and within a period of five years they are on the right track now, larger companies like GM and Ford gave up and shut shop in India. The commercial vehicle manufacturer is surely learning fast, your article pinpoints the shortcomings in comparision to the competition and we expect Tata to take care of the same and continue improving their passenger cars.
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