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Old 22nd June 2022, 15:42   #46
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by AZT View Post

If the product is good, ASS shouldn't be a deal breaker. You can have them do a pickup and drop and avoid the hassle of going there.
I take your point. But I disagree. With pickup and drop, I may not have to see the mess inside, or listed to the angry cursing, but the quality of maintenance on my hard-earned expensive car will always remain suspect. Having owned an Indica, an Ertiga and a pre-owned Innova, you would be surprised how much different "quality of service" by "well trained technicians and processes" matter.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 16:46   #47
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour



Conclusion

Tata Motors seriously lacks in the field of cockpit, drivetrain and head lamp technology, in every product segment they have presence.

First of all, it is a well documented writing with respect to the presentation with pictures and the information illustrated.
Also the side by side comparison was worth my reading time.

BUT, (Sorry to burst your bubble) with respect to the content, it seriously lacked any convincing data as suggested in the Title.

I for one, expected their after sales and product launch planning to come as the 1st two chinks.

There is a reason why Tata sales have picked up in recent years.
Their new products are way better engineered than what they used to offer a decade back. But some products still does have many unresolved concerns, that is true.
But going by the rate at which they are improving, I believe the next generation products will be very much aspirational for anyone.

As with your views, I guess, you just focused on the aesthetics and general appeal of a car w.r.t to
features and bling rather than what should have been considered. ( i.e the product as whole.)

Since a number a bhp-ians have already explained earlier, I am not going elaborate each point again.

Except for their powertrain options ( to some extent), none of the other points are really any chinks in their armour.

Anyway, most of these individual elements are sourced from a third party at a cost.
It can be easily updated to be in line with the visual appeal of other cars both interior-wise and exterior-wise.
Also, a majority of the latest technology that each and every manufacturer in the country boasts in ads are also
third party outsourced rather than developed from scratch themselves.


That is why, a well engineered product (w.r.t what a car should be or have been in pre-electronics era )
is always lauded by a huge proportion of automobile enthusiasts.
But for this very same product to excel in the market, it should meet at least
some of the expectations of the intended customer base.
(and that includes all the blings and a mass market appeal ).

Last edited by Flying Shadow : 22nd June 2022 at 16:51. Reason: Typo
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Old 22nd June 2022, 16:58   #48
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by shamanths3 View Post
Headlights - I have somewhere read a quote "People who ask for LED headlamps are maniacs" . Apologies for the corse language, but I couldn't agree more. Tata not only focuses on Safety of their own cars but also on the oncoming traffic. I have been blinded by LED lights of oncoming 2 wheelers let alone of the cars. So halogens are still the best if we are considerate towards other drivers.
I 100% agree with you. Not only do they blind you and pose a major threat of collision but they also damage your eyes in the long run. Manufacturers should limit the level of elevation that these high power LED's should have. Especially for india where most of the roads are dark and dont have reflectors & where if u blink an eye you will wind up in a ditch or an divider that doesn't have an reflector. If you ask my personal opinion all these LED's should be banned.It is difficult to drive in the dark ,add to that some super power led that will blind you like a nuclear blast..those driving with Halogens have no option but to either just accept theyr fate or become the villian themselves and slap on a few lighthouses on theyr roof!!!
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Old 22nd June 2022, 17:02   #49
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

A lot of analysis - but it forgets a basic premise of how Marketing works.

Nobody tries to be perfect in all things. Designing any product in the real world involves a lot of tradeoffs, and ultimately is the art of selecting a set of features (and de prioritizing other things) to meet a price point and the needs of the identified target segments.

If you look at the car scene in India, Every product has its strengths and weaknesses

Maruti - Great prices, great service, great product range, but crap driving experience, atrocious build quality, and no diesel options
Hyundai - Great features, Great engines, transmissions, but expensive service, expensive products, mediocre safety record

I can go on. Every manufacturer has their DNA which comes with their pros and cons. Ultimately the conclusion of this article is that
Quote:
Tata Motors seriously lacks in the field of cockpit, drivetrain and head lamp technology, in every product segment they have presence.
.
Was a 3000 word article needed to identify that ? I don't know. I don't think so.

Someone could come up with a similar article on how Maruti Suzuki build quality and cost cutting and lack of diesel engines is a chink in their product portfolio. I am not sure how much value that information would be to most people.

While the insight itself may be of some value. I am not sure how it was arrived at. Generally most analytics/market research studies are done with the purpose of identifying insights - Ideally this should have been done with an evaluation of Tata cars vs competition in a broader set of parameters, out of which these could have been identified as gaps. But the way this is presented, looks like the inference came first, and the analysis was done afterwards to support to inference (how market research is done in lala companies that want to do it because everyone else is doing it, and to lend credibility to the big boss's random ideas)

Last edited by greenhorn : 22nd June 2022 at 17:06.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 17:19   #50
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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1. It takes legislation across the world to create standards. No one does it for free. If you think the world did it without legislation and only India needs it, wake up. The world did it earlier than India did because India decided to trail the market so that we don't have to incur the cost of technology development so that people like me can afford cars.
India decided to trail the market becuase our market never asked for safer cars. Was the general public looking at NCAP scores 10 years ago? This is not a question of affordability. So no need to make it an elitist issue. It's high time everyone wakes up. I never said only India needs legislation. I said India also needed legislation. Try to appreciate the difference.

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2. While 6 airbags is a good thing for me, a large sect of the market especially the lower level will not benefit from it especially when you would stuff 7 people in a Spresso or 12 in a Bolero, or 18 in a Trax. Be mindful of which market/cars should be forced to offer the 6/8/12 airbags. There are more fundamental changes that would give you safer drives (tail lights on trucks for eg). Sadly no one talks of the fundamental stuff and wants to get protected in case of a crash that shouldn't even have happened. On top of that, I hate people for marketing their crash worthiness on the road rather than getting an NCAP done.
No one is talking about it because most people are more focused on features. And when someone points it out, some say it will make cars more expensive and so we should not bother. "Let's keep cars affordable". Well, then either you get a safe car or a cheap car.

If you shouldn't stuff more than the designated number of people in a Trax/Sumo/Traveller, then why do people do it? Don't they know it is not safe?
If they still do it then how will you attempt to stop them without a specific law in place that prohibits overloading? Strong legislation is required again. And yes, this is a very Indian problem. Very few places in the world will people pile on like they do in India.

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3. JTP twins were kicked out because of powertrain failures over anything else.
Never heard of any powertrain failures. Certainly not on Team-BHP. Would be happy to be corrected.

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4. It will always be how much you value what for yourself vs what someone else does. So be accommodative and don't criticize people's wants. After all, customers are always right.
By the same logic, you should be accommodative of my views when I am sharing them.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 17:46   #51
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by veedub89 View Post

If you shouldn't stuff more than the designated number of people in a Trax/Sumo/Traveller, then why do people do it? Don't they know it is not safe?
If they still do it then how will you attempt to stop them without a specific law in place that prohibits overloading? Strong legislation is required again. And yes, this is a very Indian problem. Very few places in the world will people pile on like they do in India.
Effect of mobility is the ability to have 100 km radius for your earning opportunities vs having a 20 km radius by foot.

A true story in Mumbai last week: A mango delivery person decided to walk the last 1.5/2 km of the journey to deliver mangoes because he had limited money for the bus ticket. These are the choices a few people have to make. For someone in the rural areas traveling approx 40 km for his work, 10 rs cost of travel vs 15 rs cost of travel is a big thing 50% increase. It is not that he wants to travel dangerously. It is more because he won't be able to afford to travel at all. The same goes for the 6/7 people's families in Alto.

When Polo GT TSI was launched it was the first one with ESP and all. Yet a lot of people made the choice to buy the TDI (without ESP) or the Honda city Base (without ESP etc). IIRC at that time, i20 had the option of 6 airbags back in 2010, yet no one bought that variant. Even I bought the GT TSI for the powertrain and not for the safety piece. It wasn't until recent times we ourselves (the early adopters) asked for safety.

And legislation may be good for us to get more variety with 6 airbags; but to the gaonwala who lives and gets his daily bread using a 2-wheeler and uses his alto to take his family of 6 out to functions(as we use the SUV), it is a cost. He would decide not to own a car if it becomes expensive and travel with 4 on the bike.

Strong legislation will definitely help the slightly above the bottom class and be a hurdle for the bottom class.

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By the same logic, you should be accommodative of my views when I am sharing them.
True. I was turned on by the MLA line more than anything else. Sorry for that.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 18:10   #52
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by shamanths3 View Post
Headlights - I have somewhere read a quote "People who ask for LED headlamps are maniacs" . Apologies for the corse language, but I couldn't agree more. Tata not only focuses on Safety of their own cars but also on the oncoming traffic.
I am mindblown by this theory that Tata didn't provide LED headlights because they focus on the safety of the oncoming traffic. You must belong to their already awesome PR team

Your theory also suits another question as to why Tata cars have poor powertrain. Basically so that no one reaches unsafe speeds.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 18:18   #53
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

The data seems incorrect.

1) Last 2 months at least XUV 700 sold more or less same numbers as Safari plus Harrier and both sold three times the MG Hector numbers. Not bothering with going through the other data hence.

2) What is shown to be lagging in say lighting etc. is outsourced technology. Anyone can get it.

3) TATA beats ALL as far as Audio system sound is concerned.

4) It too has stuff like ventilated seats etc now, and the interiors have always been well appointed.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 18:38   #54
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Threads and manybe perspectives like these skew the market away from safer, dynamically sorted cars towards a bunch of cans with bigger screens and larger sunroofs to pop our heads out of. I'm not saying Tata, but even other good cars.
Well said!
4stars minimum,
4cylinders,
4power windows,
4speakers,

These 4 along with Good ride, handling, reliability and after sales support plus a few features thrown here and there is all one needs. Granted anything extra is welcome but not worthy to sacrifice these Pillars. For ex A car with too much tech and features but a mediocre engine and build is not just not going to sell. I sincerely hope that tata recognise they weakness and improve otherwise its only a matter of time until Maruti also starts playing the safety game, then there will no more reason to swallow thes niggles and issues with tatas ASS.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 18:46   #55
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Well, if I worked in Tata Motors PV division, the first thing I would do would be to print out the points raised by the OP and circulate it to the product design team for addressing these in the next update.

Since most of the chinks mentioned are superficial, it really should not take too much effort to sort them out, and at least in one case (headlights) it can actually be argued that Tata provides more effective ones. Some of the other points mentioned like the graphics of the MID may just need a software update which may not even add to the cost.

I seriously hope that Tata takes notice of this post and addresses the points mentioned - these are low hanging fruits and much easier to address than say a weak 1.2 NA three pot engine, not having a proper variant spread for each model, lack of uniform sales and service experience across geographies and niggles in new models, which, in my book are much bigger chinks in their armour.

While it can be argued that many other OEMs have gaping holes (and not chinks) in their armour especially when it comes to fundamentals (which is one aspect where Tata excels), the fact remains that this post has been compiled with a lot of effort and care and it may be just pure coincidence that it is coming across as a Tata bashing post written by a covert Maruti fan boy. I am sure the OP had no such intention. At the end of the day the post does do a very good job of highlighting superficial improvement areas, and Tata should take it in the right spirit and work on the areas mentioned while keeping their core strengths intact.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 18:52   #56
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

With all due respect to everyone, I found it to be an analysis rather than bashing. While one may disagree with many points (Like Instrument cluster, Infotainment) but we can't call it brand bashing. If I want a brand to fail and start making false claims that may be called bashing but starting a discussion with perceived weaknesses can't be called bashing. Yes I agree that few positives shoud have been shared along with solutions for overcoming issues so as to make it more neutral and more of an analysis rather than rant.
Let me prove my point with giving my POV of Maruti
Title : The beginning of end of Maruti Suzuki?
Challenges
1) Lack of engines bigger than 1.5 litre.
2) Visible part sharing across the cheapest and costliest products thus decreasing the perceived value of costlier models.
3) Lack of good safety ratings which nowadays are a good selling point.
4) No presence in higher price points and lower price range monopoly threatened my much more competitive products
5) Lack of research and development hence dependent on others (Toyota).
Positives
1) Brand loyalty by many customers
2) Vast service Network unmatched by any competition
3) Deep pockets
Road Map
1) New product concepts rather than cosmetic updates
2) Better and safer Built quality.
3) Better/premium SUVs under Nexa for premium customers
4) EV in sub 10 lakh segment so as to continue their hold on this segment.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 18:56   #57
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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I am mindblown by this theory that Tata didn't provide LED headlights because they focus on the safety of the oncoming traffic.
Well i think it depends on perspective!! For example it won't make that much of an difference inside well lit city roads. But in narrow rural roads it will blind the oncoming traffic ( atleast it blinds me ) especially if the lights are not aligned properly. And if you'r are in a low slung sedan and the car in opposite is an fortuner then it becomes difficult. Ive been in situations like this several times on our gen 2 Dzire. Maybe its the lights on our dzire but a lot of friends also share the same opinion. So this is my perspective. But being a Senior member you will probably have more experience than me for sure, So i welcome any corrections on my perspective.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 18:59   #58
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
I am mindblown by this theory that Tata didn't provide LED headlights because they focus on the safety of the oncoming traffic. You must belong to their already awesome PR team

Your theory also suits another question as to why Tata cars have poor powertrain. Basically so that no one reaches unsafe speeds.
I am sorry, I already have a better job than join a PR team. I just quoted what I learnt from the people who actually work for Tata. Maybe that's the way they want to portray the lack of the feature or it can be true as well right?

Coming to your second point, by your logic then formula 1 cars shouldn't be that fast as they also don't have LED headlamps right, so we can ask them also to produce poor engines. Jokes aside, thank you for your perspective. You can be right as well and it's always healthy to have a clean debate is what I believe.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 19:37   #59
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Maybe its the lights on our dzire but a lot of friends also share the same opinion. So this is my perspective. But being a Senior member you will probably have more experience than me for sure, So i welcome any corrections on my perspective.
You are justifying the point on the basis of how it is used by drivers. No LED headlight would cause glare if it is kept in low beam like how it should be in the presence of other vehicles. My point is simple - No manufacturer could keep that as an excuse for why they don't offer it. In that case, it is as stupid as R C Bhargava justifying why Maruti doesn't offer sun roofs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shamanths3 View Post
Maybe that's the way they want to portray the lack of the feature or it can be true as well right?

Coming to your second point, by your logic then formula 1 cars shouldn't be that fast as they also don't have LED headlamps right, so we can ask them also to produce poor engines
That's how as you say 'they' ie Tata wants to portray it. However like the OP has mentioned, the reality is that they lag behind in certain areas for which such justifications do no good. It is at the most suitable for a sales associate to use such excuses to convince customers. But not for the quality of info that has been shared by OP.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 19:40   #60
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

LED headlamps, drivetrain and infotainment, are indeed the areas, where Tata Motors is now falling behind.

LED headlamps:
Sparkling white, blinding, LED headlights are the new fad. Though they are not suitable in rains or fog, a car with LED headlamps does look more premium than one with yellow halogen bulbs. Tata can not afford to ignore LEDs for long. I am hoping the next generation/facelifts will have LED headlamps, at least, in the top variants.

Drivetrain:
The last I read, was an ACI article talking about Tata developing a 160 bhp 1.5 litre Turbo Petrol, expected to be used in Harrier-Safari twins and the ICE version of the Curvv.
The article did mention 'other variants' of ICE engines, but did not elaborate. They do need a better 1.2.

I don't recall reading anything about the next generation of Revotron engines.

Also, there is no update on their 2.2 litre 160 bhp diesel engine. It was supposed to be launched in the BS6 Hexa.

The Altroz was recently awarded with a DCA clutch unit. I am hoping to see the same unit soon doing duties in Nexon and Punch.

Infotainment:
As we all know, in Tata cars, its not a plug and play setup. With several features, like climate control, telemetrics and ICE built in, it will take some time for them to develop the next generation. As we have seen, bigger screens do tend to grab more eyeballs, hoping again that upcoming facelifts / next gen cars will have bigger screens.

With their Avinya concept, they emphasised that voice commands is the next big thing. It might be, but it won't be replacing screens anytime soon. They won't be able to hop straight to voice only. They will have to join the big screen bandwagon, sooner or later.
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