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Old 22nd June 2022, 19:42   #61
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

This analysis even though is valid, factual and logical, it looks strongly biased, half-baked and incomplete.

For eg-
1. Harrier/Safari twins are sold only in Diesel guises. While all other cars compared here are sold both in Diesel and Petrol options. This is not highlighted in the analysis.
2. There is not doubt all the points mentioned (compared) are kind of weak links to Tata. But so is there weak links for Hector twins/XUV700/Alcazar as well. Similarly there are positive sides Tata.
3. MG as a brand is no game to Tata in India. For eg. Hector twins only score more compared to Harrier in these areas - Features/Electronics, Better Low speed Ride, Reliability, and Fit and Finish. Harrier/Safari twins are better in all other areas.
4. And it is not an apple to apple comparison to compare almost 3 year old Harrier (Jan 2019 launch) to a XUV700 (Oct 2021 launch). In fact, Harrier is already due for facelift/upgrade while the 700 is still piles of deliveries lagging.

This study looks more of only the "W" in the SWOT analysis.

Well there is no doubt about the following areas that Tata has to strive and slog for sustenance and growth
1. Product Reliability
2. ASS experience
3. Fit and Finish
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Old 22nd June 2022, 20:10   #62
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

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Originally Posted by audioholic View Post
That's how as you say 'they' ie Tata wants to portray it. However like the OP has mentioned, the reality is that they lag behind in certain areas for which such justifications do no good. It is at the most suitable for a sales associate to use such excuses to convince customers. But not for the quality of info that has been shared by OP.
I agree to your point that Tata is lagging in certain areas. However I was also just pointing to the drawbacks of LED projectors. In a country where many people still don't know that there is a High Beam / Low Beam toggle, I feel it causes more nuisance than benefits.

Maybe they will follow the market and introduce in the facelifted Harrier.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 20:33   #63
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

I remember an incident or rather an anecdote. I remember my mom, whenever we used to travel in our car at night, used to say, that the street lights are so dim nowadays (LED was just getting introduced) and the old Sodium Vapour ones used to be so bright. And then, quietly I used to turn down the cars windows and everything was as bright as it could be! You see, our car had 20 VLT window film for a considerable period of time.

Why this anecdote, in an otherwise nice thread - Data, in my experience, can be made to sing tunes that we want it to sing. A 90% chance of survival can also be put like a '1 in 10' chance of death. Both quotes are equally true!

Another anecdote I remember, is discussing an increment my friend got - about 8% on a base salary of 40 LPA. I remember saying that his increment was starting salary for some people!. The beauty of Analysis - is the perspective you take. Kapil Dev never scored a 175 again (did he?) but more than his bowling (he broke long standing records) people remember him for his batting!

Why am I quoting these? The OP has put considerable effort in compiling a great bit of analysis and kudos to that. I do believe that while it does feel a bit one sided, there is truth in between the lines.

Yes, TATA has reached a great milestone - but to stay there it will have to increase its USP's as soon others will catch up. An odd gimmick here and there (10 inch touchscreens IMHO are way too much!, but I am old - and the newer 'screen' generation loves these things). The median age of car buyers is shifting and the safety conscious generation will give way eventually to these kids.

I do think TATA and Mahindra have teams that look into this - Most of their range is due for Mid life (or shall I say quarter life) updates. We shall keep hearing from them. Exciting times ahead.

I see many people buy safe cars like MB, Volvo, BMW, VW, Skoda, TATA, etc and then have their children stick out of the sun roof while driving like crazy! Would you blame the manufacturer here if something goes wrong?

Sorry, I digress. My point is TATA makes well engineered cars - gimmicks such as these (10 inch touchscreens, full colour digital MID, Internet connected cars...) are all items that can be added easily to most cars.

What is tough to do is change chassis, engines, etc. I remember watching an interview with the EV launch, where they talk about being able to swap batteries or increase the battery/ decrease the battery capacity as required and the TATA guy said, the Nexon enjoys a 50:50 weight Bias, this is dailled into the design of the suspension, ABS software, Corner Stability Control, Chassis dynamics, handling etc. A 30KW pack weighs about 200kgs or so (IIRC) - and removing or adding this will affect all this! I am sure there are other things like this to be considered when making any changes to a vehicle.

Mahindra, Tata have come a long way in making reliable, rugged and dare I say, customer centric vehicles, without compromising on basics.

I can always buy a 40 Inch TV to replace my 21 inch TV - what I cant do is break the wall of the home to accomodate it!

Last edited by torquecurve : 22nd June 2022 at 20:34.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 21:59   #64
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Kudos to the OP on starting a well worded and researched thread; shows the effort that was put in, in getting together the data; specifically liked the side-by-side pics and other such nicer touches.

BUT (and a big one at that) the thread title itself reeks of the bias against Tata, from the word go! IMO, that itself is serving as a click bait (not sure if on a Google search yet) but surely on this forum (myself included)!

Believe the intent was obviously to start with something rhetorical and thereby invite members' (and non members) attention and their thoughts; and that's achieved!

Time and again, it has been established, without an iota of doubt, that a car is essentially to be looked at as a package and that itself is subjective for every probable or existing customer, as it is different for every individual. For some performance is paramount, for some comfort is, safety, build, ride quality, bells & whistles etc etc. This very forum is a treasure trove of multiple such packages, being discussed at length, proving time and again that there's no such thing as a 'perfect' car (package)!

Yet we find ourselves drawn into very similar such myopic and repeated discussions, unfortunately! Probably because there's no dearth of people having a bone to pick with Indian manufacturers, specifically Tata. Interesting to see many newbies contributing to the discussion though..

Sorry, but I don't have anything tech/fact based to add as most of that has already been mentioned by fellow bhpians.

Cheers!

Disclaimer: Before I start getting branded as a tata fanboy, I have owned a Honda, a Maruti, a Hyundai and a Tata, long enough to define what kind of 'package' would work for me. I just don't feel the need to find the 'chinks' in other packages.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 23:03   #65
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Quote:
Originally Posted by pqr View Post

Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Well, design, material usage and chassis is something that Tata Motors have made its core strength during the course of time but they are lagging in cockpit, drivetrain and headlamp technologies where other manufactures are way ahead. Since Mahindra roped in their chief designer, and also aced in the safety department, has left Tata Motors vulnerable as Mahindra is focusing big time on other futuristic technology as demonstrated in XUV 700.
I hardly think Pratap Bose has had any input to the XUV 700. Mahindra and TATA are together pushing each other to be better and that is what the take away should be. Competition always drives innovation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pqr View Post

Let us start with the flagship products of Tata Motors. MG has been selling more Hectors in India than Harrier since 2019. Despite being relatively new, Harrier and Safari both come with a loyalty bonus of ₹ 40,000, but there is no discount on Hector which has same diesel engine offering. Recently launched XUV700, despite supply side constraint, has captured more market share than Harrier and Safari combined. That show that everything is not good for Tata Motors 3.0, so let us explore technology areas where Tata’s flagship products are really weak.
The biggest mistake one can make when putting in so much effort to compile a post, is to get factual information wrong. Makes the entire analysis look skewed and biased.
Hector sells as petrol+diesel and 5+7 seater options. As others have pointed out, Harrier + Safari numbers are a better comparison for that. Even considering that, TATA twins comfortably outsell the MG ones, inspite of MG offering a petrol variant as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pqr View Post
Tata Motors seriously lacks in the field of cockpit, drivetrain and head lamp technology, in every product segment they have presence. Mahindra and MG are hell bent to push the boundaries as demonstrated in every new product they launched in the recent past. Maruti has shown strong intent to change with changing times and now has full access to Toyota’s technology library. Hyundai-KIA have already demonstrated what they can do in future with Ioniq 5 and EV6 respectively. Also their homeland has giant battery manufacturers (LG, Samsung, SK) and have close tie ups. So Tata has no time to be complacent with current achievement and has a lot of catching up to do in this field.
Maruti has shown an intent to change with changing times - IF ONLY. Maruti are the dinosaurs of our market and rightly under threat from manufacturers. They have held back innovation , specifically in terms of safety for the longest possible time. In fact they still keep resisting new legislation for safer cars.

The latter part of your post asks Tata to invest time in futuristic technologies. I am sure you know Tata Motors is putting in all kinds of investment, in creating their own battery manufacturing capability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pqr View Post
Futuristic cockpit and other technology concept shown in recent times by Tata Motors are just very basic in today’s time. Instrument cluster and infotainment system shown in Curvv concept seems to be quick and lousy job done over midnight. Avinya’s interior looks like tuck and nip job from other start up EV product concepts. Here also Mahindra is planning to come up with all guns blazing with ‘Born’ EV series.
So your conclusion is based on concept cockpit designs? I don't see how Mahindra's concept designs are that different honestly. Let's hold off that comparison till production version of the vehicles hit the market

Quote:
Originally Posted by pqr View Post
Just harping on design, safety and undercutting competitor’s price will not make Tata Motors too much of future ready when competition is raising the bar, and exposing Tata Motors’ weakness. To sustain the growth or market position Tata Motors need to heavily invest time besides human and financial capital in development and integration of upcoming and futuristic technology.
I hardly think TATA is undercutting their competitors in any segment. Their products are priced on par and sometimes even more than the competition.


The thing is, this thread could have been compiled for any other manufacturer, but instead it is for that one manufacturer who is constantly outperforming market trends for the last 18 months. Shudder to say what a thread for those who are constantly losing market share would look like.
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Old 22nd June 2022, 23:46   #66
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

The list of cars I have owned so far:
  1. Hyundai Verna
  2. Mahindra Thar
  3. Honda Jazz

By my father:
  1. Maruti Suzuki Alto
  2. Chevrolet Sail
  3. Hyundai Grand i10
  4. Maruti Suzuki Ciaz
  5. Honda City 5th Gen

In all of these buying decisions, we never happened to consider a Tata product.
Now looking at the conversation so far on this thread, some might think I am anti-Tata Motors.
But none of their cars have convinced me to the point of consideration, let alone bringing it home. Even today.

The only new Tata car which I found to be well rounded from the date of launch, was the Punch. For that price, it is almost there.
And more recently, the Nexon EV Max is almost on point too.

Rate of progress shown by Tata Motors is phenomenal, and I hope, that soon, they're 100% there.
And when the time comes for our next upgrade / replacement, we consider one of their new generation products.
But as of now, from the Jazz & the City that we own, we don't think any Tata car could provide us what matters the most at the moment - 100% RELIABILITY.

For those who might not be happy with my reply:
From the list above, the vehicles that we owned, none of them were flawless.

Last edited by parrys : 23rd June 2022 at 00:16.
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Old 23rd June 2022, 08:23   #67
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Default Re: Chink in Tata Motors 3.0 armour

Mod Note: The topic has been debated enough. Thanks to all for the discussion. Closing.
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