[On4Wheels]

Honda launched it first strong hybrid, Honda City e:HEV, a few months backs . Now, Maruti Suzuki and Toyota are gearing up to launch their strong hybrid cars. I guess, more hybrid cars are going to replace the market and it is high time to understand the pros and cons of hybrid cars. The choice of a car by any customer is based on his need: performance, efficiency, reliability, or environment friendliness. As the hybrid car are different from the conventional ICE cars, I would like to understand how different the ICEV compared to conventional ICE cars on above said factors. The important questions for which I seek the expert opinion from this forum are give below:

1. Based on the break even analysis on Honda City e:HEV, we have seen that it may not be cost effective compared to its conventional counterparts as of now. However, these analyses were based on a few factors viz., capital cost, running cost and the oil price etc. Are these calculations realistic? If not, what are the other important factors we need to consider?
2. Most of the hybrid cars are based on Atkinson Cycle which is a low power density cycle. Does this low power density translate to a longer life span?
3. The hybrid engines are complex compared to conventional ICEs: different compression and expansion ratios, series mode operation of two different systems etc, higher number of components. Considering the complexity aspect, are hybrid cars reliable?
4. Range anxiety is a real problem in EV cars. The compatibility issue with the charger system itself puts lots of EV owners into trouble. The issues like, lean charging network and waiting periods at the charging station (may be in future) are the deal breaker for a customer who is considering the EV as a primary car. Can the hybrid car be considered as the primary car in a real world scenario? The engine produces less power and the battery system augments it. Given a short range of battery (~5 km?), will the car be able to regenerate the battery under real world conditions like hill road driving where the driver is not supposed to stop and take a break.
5. The hybrid cars are less polluting as its mileage is more than conventional ICEs. Does it mean the carbon footprint is lower than the ICEs considering the manufacturing and disposal periods also?

I have phrased these questions to understand whether the hybrid vehicle can be considered as a primary car because I am considering to purchase one which should cater my daily office commute as well as occasional long trips. As the members of this forum have lots of real world experience, kindly share your expert opinion on these aspects. Thanks in advance. Have a nice Day.

[Tanmay007]

These mild/strong hybrid vehicles are not the stop-gap needed to move towards 100% EV. We seriously need proper plug-in hybrids which can do a majority of daily city travel in pure-EV mode.

PHEVs are the only solution which can ensure a smooth transition, unfortunately none of the manufacturers here are taking it seriously.

[Shreyans_Jain]

A strong hybrid like the Honda City or Camry can totally be anyone’s primary or only car. They cover all the bases, and are ideal for a market like India where charging remains an issue. The only compromise is on boot space, which gets eaten up by the battery and the spare wheel. As long as one can make do with that, they are an excellent choice.

[ajayc123]

Nice topic, pretty close to the heart of a lot of BHPians, including me.

Though strong hybrid has bèen introduced in India recently, and for the first time in mainstream cars, but the technology has been around in other countries for decades. So fairly mature.

It is more efficient use of energy, and definitely better option for city usage, and does not come with range anxiety. However, the market is just opening up, and there could be more options in the next couple of years, and possibly plug-in hybrids, which could be another option.

The upcoming options like HyRyder and Grand Vitara, are 3 cylinder based, and to extract energy effficiently, Atkinson needs to run at higher rpm. So you should definitely watch for NHV, if that is a concern for you.

If your requirement is urgent, you could take the plunge, it should be fairly reliable as the powertrain is coming from Toyota who are the veterans of the hybrid technology.

[baarish84]

1. Hyryder/ Grand Vitara claimed fuel efficiency is 28 KMPL compared to Creta SX (o) IVT 's 17 KMPL. Assuming petrol price of 110 rupees and price difference of 3 lakh rupees between strong hybrid Hyryder vs Creta petrol SX (o), the break even is 30000 km.

Most people will cover this running in three years.

2. I understand engine is sporadically used. Further, strong hybrid variant will be without conventional starter motor, alternator etc. Conventional Transmission system will also be missing. Brakes are expected to last longer, as regeneration system is expected to absorb most of the deacceleration energy.

3. As primary engine is expected to run strictly "as required", i belive hybrid will be reliable. Battery warranty is 8 years / 1.6 lacs KM from Toyota. NVH are expected to be slightly higher though.

4. No range anxiety in strong hybrid. Car can run on pure ICE mode. There is a separate battery to start the system.

5. Carban footprint may not be lower at overall system production level, but on individual level you will be contributing less carbon.

[Jeroen]

For what it is worth: Both my son and my daughter and their respective partners bought A second hand Kia Niro here in the Netherlands. Both about 3-4 years old with about 80-90k kilometres on the clock.

This is a very popular hybrid car for young families. It is larger then our Ford Focus and comes with all the bells and whistles. They both had their cars for about a year anc clocked another 15k. No problems, just normal once a year service. They are averaging 1:25 fuel efficiency.

Of course , the Netherlands is a somewhat different environment then India. But hybrids have been quite popular for some years now. String second hand market. (Most private purchased cars are second hand), no real problems or difference when it comes to reliability compared to ICE type of cars.

Jeroen

[itsmeparvathy9]

I really feel plug-in Hybrids could be the best bridge between an ICE car and an EV, Ability to go pure EV mode and run on fuel as well, but as I understand it will be much more expensive to make, so cost considerations bring us into Hybrids like the City Hybrid, the Urban Cruiser Hyryder and the Grand Vitara Hybrid. Slowly but surely costs will come down and people will move on from ICE to electric. As far as Electric cars are concerned, I guess Tata, Mahindra and MG are going all in.

[ajayc123]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

For what it is worth: Both my son and my daughter and their respective partners bought A second hand Kia Niro here in the Netherlands. Both about 3-4 years old with about 80-90k kilometres on the clock.

This is a very popular hybrid car for young families. It is larger then our Ford Focus and comes with all the bells and whistles. They both had their cars for about a year anc clocked another 15k. No problems, just normal once a year service. They are averaging 1:25 fuel efficiency.

Of course.p, the Netherlands is a somewhat different environment then India. But hybrids have been quite popular for some years now. String second hand market. (Most private purchased cars are second hand), no real problems or difference when it comes to reliability compared to ICE type of cars.

Jeroen

Hey Jeroen,

I guess Europe should be a mature market with many hybrid options. How much price premium does a new hybrid come at over its regular ICE version?

Also, are there government incentives to further offset costs?

[nandrive]

After owning Toyota Rav4 hybrid AWD for more than 2 years and driving close to 20k kms here is my short answer. A big YES, strong hybrids can be the Primary and Only Car.

Few more observations,

• All strong hybrids are not same, my experience is with Toyota's 4th generation hybrid implementation.

• I live in Sydney and the terrain here is not flat, to give an example distance between my house and office is 20kms and has elevation difference of 160 metres. I always get 18 to 20kmpl round trip mileage. I always drive at speed limits. My friend's humble hatchback struggles to return half of what I get in the similar conditions.

• Comparing NVH with ICE cars during idling is not an apple to apple comparison. Hybrids never idle at low rpms, hybrids mean business and they always run in most efficient rpm range.

• If the commute distance is short, say less than 10kms, hybrids are not really efficient, they may or may not be as good as non hybrids.

My Rav4 is all wheel drive and weighs 2 tons. I have got an average(tank full method) of 18.6+ kmpl until now and motorway speed limits are usually 110kmph. I would think, with 80kmph highway speed limit, hybrids will be much more efficient in the Indian driving conditions.

[ajayc123]

Originally Posted by nandrive

If the commute distance is short, say less than 10kms, hybrids are not really efficient, they may or may not be as good as non hybrids.

Hey Nan,

A lot of folks are considering hybrids for bumper to bumper traffic. Even though I don't stay in Bangalore, but I have experienced a bit of Bangalore evening traffic on a couple of occassions, especially out from office, where it could take half an hour to cover a couple of kilometers. Likewise in the NCR region.

What's your assessment on strong hybrid use in such cases both on fuel efficiency and NHV (noise and vibrations)?

Would Plug-in hybrids be a better fit for such situations?

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by ajayc123

Hey Nan,

What's your assessment on strong hybrid use in such cases both on fuel efficiency and NHV (noise and vibrations)?

Would Plug-in hybrids be a better fit for such situations?

I have first hand experience of Bangalore traffic . As per my experience hybrids excel in slow moving traffic conditions than stand still traffic. If car is in standstill and AC running, engine will eventually kick in. For the conditions stated above definitely plugins are better, but strong hybrids are way better than non hybrids. As I said before in stand still if hybrid engine kicks in it will be running at higher rpm, so the driver will definitely feel it though not a deal breaker. I have co passengers who are not into cars, so they have not been able distinguish between ev or non ev mode.

[ajayc123]

Makes sense, the Atkinson cycle in hybrid would bring in about 40% or even higher efficiency over the otto cycle in a non hybrid, even when stationary.

[landcruiser123]

As long as the car suits your requirements (esp boot space), go for it. Hybrid powertrains have been mastered for over 25 years now. There might be expensive maintenance (battery, starter-generator) around the 12-15 year mark, but most people don't keep their cars that long.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by ajayc123

I guess Europe should be a mature market with many hybrid options. How much price premium does a new hybrid come at over its regular ICE version?

Obviously it various model to model, but on average the price difference is somewhere in the 8-12% range I would think.

Originally Posted by ajayc123

Also, are there government incentives to further offset costs?

Yes, the road tax is half. Road tax is substantial amount of running expense for a car here. It is based primarily on fuel type (diesel is more expensive than petrol) emission and weight. On hybrids you will only pay half of the going rate till 2025. Then it is likely to change. In 2030 a completely new road tax system will be introduced, based on usage (i.e. per kilometre driven) for all cars.

Jeroen

[On4Wheels]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

A strong hybrid like the Honda City or Camry can totally be anyone’s primary or only car. The only compromise is on boot space, which gets eaten up by the battery and the spare wheel.

Toyota Camry looks hot and 524 litres of boot space is OK for me. But it is too hot for my pocket. Honda City boot size is a big negative. Thanks.

Originally Posted by ajayc123

Nice topic, pretty close to the heart of a lot of BHPians, including me.

Though strong hybrid has bèen introduced in India recently, and for the first time in mainstream cars, but the technology has been around in other countries for decades. So fairly mature.

If your requirement is urgent, you could take the plunge, it should be fairly reliable as the powertrain is coming from Toyota who are the veterans of the hybrid technology.

The implementation of new technology in India has seen lots of turbulence even if it is mature technology in some other market. For example, fuel injection systems in petrol cars in 90s, up-gradation to BS6 etc had lots of repercussions 2020. However, this time companies like Honda and Toyota are bringing these cars which should not have any problem with reliability. I am OK with moderate levels of NVH and will be checking the same once these cars are available for test drive. It is not an immediate requirement, however, I cannot wait too long (more than a year).

Originally Posted by Jeroen

For what it is worth: Both my son and my daughter and their respective partners bought A second hand Kia Niro here in the Netherlands. Both about 3-4 years old with about 80-90k kilometres on the clock.
Jeroen

I know that many members of this forum, who are living abroad, would be using the hybrid car in day to day life and your response came in time. I appreciate it.

Originally Posted by nandrive

After owning Toyota Rav4 hybrid AWD for more than 2 years and driving close to 20k kms here is my short answer. A big YES, strong hybrids can be the Primary and Only Car.

Good inputs! The comment about the short trips was enlightening one as I was thinking otherwise and thanks for the same. I use my car for frequent short distance commutes in the week ends.

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

As long as the car suits your requirements (esp boot space), go for it. Hybrid powertrains have been mastered for over 25 years now. There might be expensive maintenance (battery, starter-generator) around the 12-15 year mark, but most people don't keep their cars that long.

You are right! The average life of a car would be less than 12 years. However, it makes sense to invest if, on an average, hybrid cars can be used for more than 2,00,000 km without causing much maintenance problems.