[BrokenHW]

Honda to stop producing diesel engines in India from February 2023; the Japanese carmaker is to discontinue its 1.5-litre diesel engine as it cannot meet the tougher RDE (Real Driving Emissions) norms that kick in from April 1.

Source : Autocarpro

https://www.autocarpro.in/news-natio...ry-2023-113397

[Carma2017]

It is not as if Honda cannot meet it. It is just not worth putting in the cost and effort for the upgradation. Especially more so when they have put their eggs in the Hybrid basket.

[enj0y_ride]

Logical move. There is no future for < 2L diesels in India. They were late in the diesel game, and now too delayed on Turbo Petrols ! Still no news on any Honda Turbo Petrol launches.

[busydrive]

I was really impressed by the Amaze Diesel AT. Fuel efficient and the only proper Diesel AT less than 14 Lakhs OnRoad Bangalore.
However in our forum itself there are many instances of "hole" in Honda Diesel engines. This was quite alarming to be frank and that's still making me think if it will be a good idea to go for this.

[sarathlal]

Outside India, the various new models that launched recently are making use of the Petrol-Electric hybrid combo engines and they are all having rave reviews; Be it the Accord, CRV or the Pilot.

Overall, the strategy looks good for Honda, but just that Honda India is an altogether opposite sad state of affairs.

[sid_deb]

Logical move from Honda given the upcoming RDE emissions but they are going to lose further market share to Maruti now.

Honda City Diesel is still popular amongst the taxi operators who cater to top corporate firm sedan needs. With the diesel option gone, they will shift to the Ciaz which offers similar legroom at cheaper price.

[Livnletcarsliv]

It's better that Honda discontinue its entire business operations in India than only discontinue its diesel engines.

There is no clear product roadmap from Honda (they are always in the evaluation/testing phase). No models to look forward in the next few years. It's been a long time since there was a hot comparison between a Honda and another brand. The market already started forgetting Honda as a brand (except for 2-wheelers). And discontinuing all the models but City will only fasten the forgetting phenomenon.

Good luck Honda for your bleak future in India.

[07CR]

My father had a Amaze IDTEC (2013-2020). We used this car extensively for nearly 7 years, amassing 1.05L KMs and there were absolutely 0 niggles or reliability issues WRT to the engine. It's other thing that the NVH was abysmal, but other than that this was a gem of an engine. Great driveability, ample performance, excellent FE(managed 25-29 KMPL on a number of occasions) and great reliability.

RIP IDTEC.

[VikramCS]

Sad to see Honda discontinue models and then this engine. Amaze Diesel CVT provided acceptable torque, power output and great mileage. It was a practical car especially for heavy usage.

Yes, they have got-in hybrid, but, it still has some way to go before getting widely adopted. Wonder whether Honda can plonk their Hybrid in Amaze at the same price point as current Amaze Diesel automatic..?

[gururajrv]

I am still perplexed as to how Maruti foresaw all of this and steered clear of diesels from day one of BS6. They didn't go with EV full blown either. Rather, they're betting on Mild & Full hybrids after their collab with Toyota

I can't recollect hearing much about Honda's diesel mill except for being noisy and rough which is stark opposite trait to their petrol which is silent! Regardless, Honda should focus outside the reigns of City / Amaze.

[dsr001]

Originally Posted by gururajrv

I am still perplexed as to how Maruti foresaw all of this and steered clear of diesels from day one of BS6.

Same for VW! Was perplexed why they stopped the TDI series.

[Maky]

Originally Posted by dsr001

Same for VW! Was perplexed why they stopped the TDI series.

Didn't Volkswagen discontinuing TDI have more to do with diesel gate rather than anything else?

[guptad42]

Honda should seriously look at EVs in India. They are falling behind.

Hybrids existed because of a cost advantage over pure EVs. Now, Honda City hybrid is in the same price range as Nexon EV Max with a 40KWH battery.

At 40KWH, you get 300-350km range easily, and you anyway need to take a rest stop after that. Fast chargers are coming up on most highway petrol stations and rest stops. Besides, people who need to regularly drive more than 350km in a single day is small - mainly commercial fleet and taxi operators.

The time for hybrids is gone. They now make financial sense only for a very niche use case.

If Honda and Toyota want to do hybrids for some ideological reason, make them like the hybrid models in China. Most PHEVs in China have 20-30KWH battery. So these are basically EVs with petrol engine only acting as a range extender. The engine does not need to be used regularly, unlike the Toyota/Suzuki/Honda hybrids in India.

We need to get rid of our dependence on imported oil & gas. So, CNG is not a great option for India. The countries we import most of our oil & gas from are either involved in war crimes like Russia or involved in terror financing like petro dollars from the Middle East. It is a major strategic risk and security nightmare for India. The govt has done a great job of managing it so far, and it is time to leave it behind. This is why India proposed language at COP27 in Egypt to call for a phase out of all fossil fuels.

The govt is on the right track, and will press the pedal on the same track in domestic sectors that consume the most oil & gas. I'll not be surprised if govt starts introducing rules to ensure all hybrids have plug-in facility, and minimum EV-only range of at least 60-70km so the daily commute for most people can be done in electric only mode. Taxes on engine cars may also go up to make EVs more attractive without providing additional incentives on EVs. The extra money raised can fund charging infrastructure around major cities and on highways connecting them to nearby towns and other cities in 500-700km range. In phase 2, expand it to 1000km driving range city-town pairs.

[drsachin]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Honda should seriously look at EVs in India. They are falling behind.

Hybrids existed because of a cost advantage over pure EVs. Now, Honda City hybrid is in the same price range as Nexon EV Max with a 40KWH battery.

At 40KWH, you get 300-350km range easily, and you anyway need to take a rest stop after that. Fast chargers are coming up on most highway petrol stations and rest stops. Besides, people who need to regularly drive more than 350km in a single day is small - mainly commercial fleet and taxi operators.

The time for hybrids is gone. They now make financial sense only for a very niche use case.

If Honda and Toyota want to do hybrids for some ideological reason, make them like the hybrid models in China. Most PHEVs in China have 20-30KWH battery. So these are basically EVs with petrol engine only acting as a range extender. The engine does not need to be used regularly, unlike the Toyota/Suzuki/Honda hybrids in India.

We need to get rid of our dependence on imported oil & gas. So, CNG is not a great option for India. The countries we import most of our oil & gas from are either involved in war crimes like Russia or involved in terror financing like petro dollars from the Middle East. It is a major strategic risk and security nightmare for India. The govt has done a great job of managing it so far, and it is time to leave it behind. This is why India proposed language at COP27 in Egypt to call for a phase out of all fossil fuels.

The govt is on the right track, and will press the pedal on the same track in domestic sectors that consume the most oil & gas. I'll not be surprised if govt starts introducing rules to ensure all hybrids have plug-in facility, and minimum EV-only range of at least 60-70km so the daily commute for most people can be done in electric only mode. Taxes on engine cars may also go up to make EVs more attractive without providing additional incentives on EVs. The extra money raised can fund charging infrastructure around major cities and on highways connecting them to nearby towns and other cities in 500-700km range. In phase 2, expand it to 1000km driving range city-town pairs.

What about import dependence on battery packs, electric motors and chargers.
1. Tata Nexon EV is 60-80% made in china. All the functional parts except chasis is made in china.
2. MG ZS EV is 100% made in china. Completely built in china sold as knocked down units.

Why tax rebates on made in china products.

Present battery technologies is highly lithium dependent. There are no lithium mines in India. Battery technologies other then lithium are still at very immature stage. China either owns or has on lease almost all of lithium mines in the world. So shifting to EV technologies means shifting import dependence on petroleum products to import dependence on china. Even US is worried about this aspect without any solution.

Make in India lithium battery may never succeed thanks to above reasons.

Hybrids is a way to go as they require smaller lithium batteries till battery ecosystem problem is solved by India/Western economies

[Livnletcarsliv]

Originally Posted by guptad42

Honda should seriously look at EVs in India. They are falling behind.

The time for hybrids is gone. They now make financial sense only for a very niche use case.

If Honda and Toyota want to do hybrids for some ideological reason, make them like the hybrid models in China. Most PHEVs in China have 20-30KWH battery. So these are basically EVs with petrol engine only acting as a range extender. The engine does not need to be used regularly, unlike the Toyota/Suzuki/Honda hybrids in India.

We need to get rid of our dependence on imported oil & gas. This is why India proposed language at COP27 in Egypt to call for a phase out of all fossil fuels.

EVs are definitely not an option in India for at least the next 5 years. Period. The reason why EV's growth rate/sales rate YoY is triple-digit is because of the initial wave. Once there are enough EVs on road, we don't have enough power generation to charge the EVs (let alone the charging infra). While still there are power cuts, load-sheddings, distribution challenges, etc, that are normal across the country, imagine the demand for power increase by 100%-200% within 1-2-3 years.

Let us also not forget the source of power generation. Still, fossil fuels account for approx. 60% of power generation in India. This significant increase in power demand will only increase the share of fossil fuels at least for the next few years.

And regarding Honda in EV, it is too far from even a decent model launch. IT will be at least 3-4 years to get a proper and affordable EV from the likes of Toyota & Honda. The only option for Honda to stay relevant in India is to bring some of its international models like the Civic, CRV, Accord, and/or other small-size models even if it sells in small numbers. At least something is better than nothing for Honda.

Originally Posted by guptad42

The govt is on the right track, and will press the pedal on the same track in domestic sectors that consume the most oil & gas. I'll not be surprised if govt starts introducing rules to ensure all hybrids have plug-in facility, and minimum EV-only range of at least 60-70km so the daily commute for most people can be done in electric only mode. Taxes on engine cars may also go up to make EVs more attractive without providing additional incentives on EVs. The extra money raised can fund charging infrastructure around major cities and on highways connecting them to nearby towns and other cities in 500-700km range. In phase 2, expand it to 1000km driving range city-town pairs.

So far, we don't have (as far as I know) any data to prove that the government is on the right track. While our government talks about going green, in reality, the situation is totally different. For eg - there is no subsidy in TN for both 2/4 wheeler EVs, no subsidy/tax reduction for solar panels for power generation (it is very expensive to install a 1KVA/3KVA solar power for a home), no policy for power self-sustenance/at least partial self-sustenance for commercial and apartment buildings.
I am sure the situation in other states may be worse. This is a wait-and-watch space, especially with respect to the government (both center and state).