[Bismaya]

Originally Posted by DRPSREDDY

Coz only Strong Hybrids should be classified as real Hybids. Mild Hybrids are again a kind of fake hybrids.

Believe it not, the Mild Hybrid/Neo Drive actually makes a difference. The Grand Vitara's Petrol base variant returns about 8-10kmpl in City. However, my friend's Toyota Hyrider Neo Drive (Manual, Mild Hybrid) returned us about 13kmpl in peak traffic hours during hospital runs.

Now, it's not a fake hybrid. It lacks some of the properties such as EV mode or more range that Strong Hybrid offers but still gets the job done at a budget. Moreover, Strong Hybrid doesn't come in MT, which is a let down for a lot of people. You can get the top variant Mild Hybrid with Manual Transmission for atleast 4L cheaper while enjoying some advantage over a Petrol engine.

The way I see it, to each his own. It's good to have options. Just look at the Tata Nexon. So many variants to cater to audience needs and that is actually working for them as the sales numbers continuously surpass Brezza.

Similarly, Maruti-Toyota partnership has come up with a far VFM offering than Creta which might just stir up Hyundai to make their product more competitve and offer it at better pricing. A win-win for an average consumer.

[giri1.8]

Originally Posted by Bismaya

Believe it not, the Mild Hybrid/Neo Drive actually makes a difference. The Grand Vitara's Petrol base variant returns about 8-10kmpl in City. However, my friend's Toyota Hyrider Neo Drive (Manual, Mild Hybrid) returned us about 13kmpl in peak traffic hours during hospital runs.

Grand vitara's base version has the mild hybrid too, there is no model without either the strong hybrid or the mild hybrid. You have basically mentioned the same powertrain.

[Cliff9091]

The comparisons being made on the forum about how Strong Hybrids are filling the void of diesels is true, but the sheer torque and grunt is sorely missed, having test driven the Vittara Strong Hybrid and also experienced the 1.3 diesel mjd MSIL used there is absolutely no common ground between the two.

On a side note there were multiple reports a few years ago about the MS Baleno Strong Hybrid, has MSIL axed the project or is it still in the works or was it component testing for the current strong hybrid kit. There is no presence of a Hatchback strong hybrid, eager to see which OEM catches on

Cheers
Cliff

[warp_10]

Its just that anything Maruti sells, sells ! They somehow have the knack for that :|

When I see Maruti clocking 3k-4k monthly for a car like S-presso (no hard feelings, owners) I am like how, how, just how !

[Bismaya]

Originally Posted by giri1.8

Grand vitara's base version has the mild hybrid too, there is no model without either the strong hybrid or the mild hybrid. You have basically mentioned the same powertrain.

Thanks for pointing that out. I stand corrected as I was not aware of the Sigma model on GV having the Mild Hybrid too. Makes an interesting proposition as the Toyota counterpart was more efficient comparatively.

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by pqr

[*] In 2023, Toyota and Maruti sold 14,220 vehicles with hybrid drivetrains.[*]Which is 2.1% of total passenger vehicles sold in 2023.[*]BEV sales in 2023 is 11,038 units, which is 1.6% of the total passenger vehicle market in 2023.

Isn't the hybrid volumes to be compared with the diesels right? Hybrids are generally proposed as diesel alternatives due to their high efficiency, even though MSIL and TKM is late with hybrids to our market, they are doing a good job.

14K with 3 models under 2 strongest brands is not the best, let's wait for the full year volumes for better understanding and also the effect on competition diesels need to be considered.

If Maruti and Toyota had BEVs by now, it would have been better figures than these, it's just brand value recall & pull.

[Samegoodkid]

This does not surprise me at all. I have been an advocate of hybrids for long and believe that they should have been on our shores a long time back.
I hope to see more self charging and plug in hybrids in future.
Personally for me, apart from the range anxiety, another factor that limits the adoption of EVs is the charging time.
There will always be a compromise till we get the charging times closer to the time taken to fill up the tank.

Happy for Toyota. Hope Honda follows the suite and launches their Creta rival in hybrid guise too (please Honda price it sensibly).

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Bismaya

Believe it not, the Mild Hybrid/Neo Drive actually makes a difference. The Grand Vitara's Petrol base variant returns about 8-10kmpl in City. However, my friend's Toyota Hyrider Neo Drive (Manual, Mild Hybrid) returned us about 13kmpl in peak traffic hours during hospital runs.

A mild hybrid is nothing but an integrated motor generator, a glorified start stop system. It does not have enough torque to run car on its power alone and even the manufacturer describe it as providing torque assist to the engine - I dont think it is much given its just a larger starter motor which runs on higher voltage. It is also the reason why Maruti does not quote the power of the motor itself or add it to be power of the engine. I highly doubt that it can have a 40% effect on fuel consumption per your figures - 10% tops and that is if the A/C isnt running because the system is not capable of running airconditioning on its own when the engine is stopped.

Originally Posted by Bismaya

Now, it's not a fake hybrid. It lacks some of the properties such as EV mode or more range that Strong Hybrid offers but still gets the job done at a budget. Moreover, Strong Hybrid doesn't come in MT, which is a let down for a lot of people. You can get the top variant Mild Hybrid with Manual Transmission for atleast 4L cheaper while enjoying some advantage over a Petrol engine.

Whether is fake or not is up to personal interpretation, it for sure plays the hybrid term fast and loose. It can't run the car on its own power, cant run the airconditioning system with engine stopped, cannot provide any meaningful assist to the engine either - everything that a real hybrid can do and with much much higher efficiency.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

A mild hybrid is nothing but an integrated motor generator, a glorified start stop system. It does not have enough torque to run car on its power alone and even the manufacturer describe it as providing torque assist to the engine - I dont think it is much given its just a larger starter motor which runs on higher voltage. It is also the reason why Maruti does not quote the power of the motor itself or add it to be power of the engine. I highly doubt that it can have a 40% effect on fuel consumption per your figures - 10% tops and that is if the A/C isnt running because the system is not capable of running airconditioning on its own when the engine is stopped.

Precisely, if there was a split to the figures between cars with a stop start motor and ones with a thorough hybrid drive, highly likely the latter will be significantly smaller in comparison. For the convenience of 'headlines', it's easier to tag them both under the 'hybrid' tag.

[DRPSREDDY]

Originally Posted by Bismaya

Believe it not, the Mild Hybrid/Neo Drive actually makes a difference. The Grand Vitara's Petrol base variant returns about 8-10kmpl in City. However, my friend's Toyota Hyrider Neo Drive (Manual, Mild Hybrid) returned us about 13kmpl in peak traffic hours during hospital runs.

Now, it's not a fake hybrid. It lacks some of the properties such as EV mode or more range that Strong Hybrid offers but still gets the job done at a budget.

Originally Posted by pqr

They are not fake; as the name suggests, they are mild. It reduces CO2 emissions (2–10 g/km, based on effectiveness, 12V/48V etc) and improves fuel efficiency, thus helping automakers meet CAFE standards.

I understand your point. The reason I called them as fake Hybrids is, many such so-called mild Hybrids came in different iterations. One such thing is Mahindra's stop-start system and Maruti's SVHS Microhybrid system. Thought they slightly increase the mileage doesn't mean it replaces or replicates Hybrids. Those are just low-cost mimicking. small savings don't demand such respect. That is why I preferred to call them 'Fake' Hybrid. Infact they should not be classified as Hybrids.

[PazhazziRaja]

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

Let me correct you then, if you are a heavy user of car then travelling 10k km will save you roughly 1L provided that you used charging at home or at govt. DISCOM rated below 9 rs per unit. If you are like me and charge at office for free then you can enjoy the saving even more.

You definitely gain a lot on the running costs with EVs and this gain increases as you use more and more free or economical charging. Also the performance difference is to be considered. However purely from a TCO,as per my calculation with the current price difference for EVs against their gasoline counterparts and assuming the average user going for a financial model (loan) for purchase, the increased EMI take away a substantial share of the fuel savings. The calculation concluded for me (considering Nexon ev launch prices) that i need around 80-90tkm for break even. So in short, financially not working for a use case where you have about 7-8k annual driving (with current prices)

Originally Posted by DarthVeda

As an EV owner for 3 years, and clocked only 25k KMs (lost 1/2 year due to covid), I am very happy with the car and have done inter state trips as well, yes, the charging stops are a bane given that Nexon EV charges at only 21kw while other competitors are going faster and faster, but a trip should not be a rush to POINT A to POINT B in record time, it's enjoying the journey, which I do, given the awesome drivability of the EV and lack of noise, so that I can talk to folks inside the car.

Looks like you fall in the bracket where i feel the TCO is not favourable (8tkm annual running)...would love to see how your return on the investment is at the moment against a similar petrol/diesel option

[INNOVATOR]

Interesting to note that I did not find the word CNG mentioned in any of the posts so far. Goes to show that the Value conscious Indian is left with too little choice when confronted with the dreaded question "Kitna deti hai" With the price of CNG inching up to Diesel levels, the justification for a lost boot is completely washed out. Why would I want to sacrifice boot space for CNG if I get the same mileage using a Hybrid
EVs have done their bit to reset this but are too expensive for what they offer - heck they even make Toyota Hyryder look like a VFM offering
Given this landscape, the Solid reputation of the Jap Twins offering bullet proof ownership experience + good mileage in the city + low service costs make it a compulsive buy.
All of the above reasons have contributed to an uptick in Hybrid sales

However, the moment we have competitive offerings in the EV space - the likes of MG4EV or smaller sub 20L offerings from Hyundai / Tata / Mahindra / VW / Skoda, it would be a matter of time before the Seltos / Creta effect kicks in.
Till then let Maruti and Toyota enjoy their time in the sun ... and let Honda feel the pain for keeping their ears shut to the market
The next run though, in the near future, could be PHEV that would offer best of both worlds... bring it on folks!
A discerning market like India needs better options than what we have

[sushan]

It is good to see Toyota/Maruti pricing their new hybrid products competitively to fuel early adoption by consumers.

I personally feel that most manufacturers are still unsure of the slope of the graph towards EV technology adoption by markets -- that it may not happen as fast as predicted due to constraints in supply chains and necessary fast-charging infrastructure. Adequate fast charging infrastructure that can turn over large volumes of EVs will be needed if EVs are to become mainstream.

Hybrids offer a way out in the interim by giving high efficiency and getting rid of the range anxiety. In the medium term, hybrids will be the new diesel and will form the bulk of sales just like diesels were in 2010-2017.

But what remains to be seen is the longterm serviceability and costs of the hybrid and EV batteries. A whole ecosystem for their recycling will also need to be established for the industry to be sustainable and cost effective.

[nettooran]

Originally Posted by nettooran

At this point of time, economically, I do not see any sense in BEVs. Of course, the green fuel, cleaner air tag may have an advantage ( then again it is said that it is nuetralized in the mining process of the raw materials required for the battery).

I wonder what the resale value of the BEV vehicles are going to be. The battery costs about 50% of the total car cost and post 3 to 4 years of ownership no one is going to pay you anywhere near to 50% of the car cost if there is a need for you to sell your car. Most of the money you saved would be gone in the initial premium you paid for the BEV. Coupled that with the ultra low resale value, time spent in recharging and ever increasing electricity cost, I hardly see any advantage in BEVs.

That was my thought. Correct me if I am wrong.

Ok. I have a change of mind now. Not because there were many posts that corrected my thought process, but because I took my first EV test drive last week . Test drove a Tiago EV and it was a completely new experiance. The sports mode was completely on a different dimention. If a puny Tiago can be this fun, I can imagine what a Nexon or ZS EV would do. I dare not mention an EV6 or ipace here.

So, my 2 cents. test drive before dismissing the EV drive experiace.

On the other hand, I still have my reservations about the practicality and economic advantages. I am in the market for a second car at home, mostly to be used by my wife and city runs. You get a fully loaded Glanza for the price of a mid variant Tiagi EV. Its Glanza vs Tiago EV, Petrol vs Electric, Head Vs Heart.

If it was entirely my decision, I would have gone for the Tiago. Charge it, put it in Sports mode and have fun fun and fun.

[KeepReading]

My first new thread on Team BHP forum!!!

Went through an interesting column on Electric/Hybrid cars on net emissions.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/stor...340-2023-05-23

Considering net pollution is higher for EV compared to ICE and Hybrid, what are the thoughts on BHPians on EV adoption.

My thoughts below.
Hybrid is right way to go till renewable energy cross mid way of total power generation. Post that only, EVs will be good for environment.
Agree that EVs offer driving pleasure. But, I am concerned about emissions.
My guess is post Maruti launches swift twins next year first half, Hybrids will pick pace. I feel that is game changer for Maruti.