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Old 9th May 2023, 09:52   #46
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

I hope the committee’s recommendation stay on paper and their intention is just to refrain people from buying diesel vehicles. If the Government is serious in implementing this, they’re digging a hole for themselves with lot of challenges. Less populated and developed countries in Europe took over a decade to completely shift to the Euro-6 emission norms. In February 2023, the European Parliament voted to approve a new law banning the sale of petrol and diesel cars in 2035 which can be successful if implemented. Banning diesel vehicles in 2027 without enough power generation and other requirements do not make sense and have lot of repercussions.

Last edited by madhukarmohan : 9th May 2023 at 10:05. Reason: Formatting
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Old 9th May 2023, 10:31   #47
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarmacnaut View Post
Good move, Diesel pollutes several times more than petrol. Its high time.
Blanket statement IMO. We are forgetting the fact that diesel engines are far more efficient, a petrol car consumes between 1.5-2x more fuel for covering the same distance. Also forgetting the amount of environmental impact created by just manufacturing a brand new car. Compare both options with these two factored in and there would hardly be any difference in how much you pollute the environment.

And if the government is so very environment focussed, they should first axe all the government owned commercial vehicles and set precedence to the citizens.
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Old 9th May 2023, 11:24   #48
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

This does not make sense plain and simple. If you take into account the amount of pollution that producing a battery makes it amounts to well over the pollution of an ICE vehicle. If you want an easy explanation for this I would suggest watching Donut Media's video. They've explained it in a simple and easy to understand manner and please note like how others have mentioned diesel engines are a lot more efficient.

An alternative possible fuel is the one that Porsche is producing. To know more about this you can also check Donut Media's video.
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Old 9th May 2023, 12:10   #49
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

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Originally Posted by epiccross View Post
Just improve electric infra, reduce taxes for EVs and continue to give subsidies, eventually everyone's gonna make the switch. When have these "quick fixes" worked?
Quite an important point. Adding a bit more:
We could have a tax subsidy on hybrids (given they're current prices, some tax credit could work wonders with their sales as well - but not in the form of loan interest subsidy)

I also wish these policies make the 20-35 L EVs more accessible (ZS, E6, atto 3, maybe new harrier ev). Considering a Honda City ehev is almost 26L otr in some states, some policy change will make it easier for people to choose the EV. The Indian market is yet to get it's Tesla model 3 equivalent.
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Old 9th May 2023, 13:08   #50
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4 wheelers in Big cities by 2027

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Originally Posted by shyampsunder View Post
Typical EV myths that have been debunked time and again but here we are again.
I think over all efficiency of a coal based power plant is around 32-42%, 42% is for supercritical. Then comes transmission loss-loss during charging an ev (10-25%) and loss during powering of wheels (7-10%)

Where as diesel engines have efficiency between 37% to 55%.

The link provided by you gives comparison between Gasoline and ev and not between diesel engine and ev. it also accepts that various Studies have shown that EV car manufacturing creates more carbon pollution. The report presents a study that life time emissions of EV are less than Gasoline engine but the study is only done for 300 miles. Also, it does not include data about carbon emission in generation of electricity to charge ev. weather the power will come from nuclear, fossil fuel or other renewable source of energy.

i think more data and analysis is required, especially on indian scenario.

Last edited by Rudra Sen : 9th May 2023 at 13:30. Reason: Quote content trimmed
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Old 9th May 2023, 14:07   #51
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

I will be happy to give up my Diesel Ecosport, which will be 9 YO in 2027, only if Government gives me following assurances :

1. Buy back my ecosport at well calculated depreciated amount.

2. Refund of road tax for the balance period.

3. Give subsidy on purchase of new electric vehicle. (HP still hasn't deviced it's EV policy and currently there is no subsidy or rebate on road tax on purchase of new EV)

4. Ensure availability of Charging stations.

5. Ensure 24 hour availability of power.
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Old 9th May 2023, 15:02   #52
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4 wheelers in Big cities by 2027

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Originally Posted by Sushil Kumar View Post
Where as diesel engines have efficiency between 37% to 55%.
Yes, if the diesel appears magically at our fuel stations.

Contrary to popular belief, the energy required actually goes down when the world(and India) transitions to EVs, see how ineffecient the current fossil fuel economy is. Similar to how much energy is saved when we all transitioned from normal bulbs to LEDs.


In real world: Which one is more efficient?
Diesel car:
Make Electricity with coal, nuclear and renewables --> Transmission losses -->pump crude from wells using electricity --> Ship or Pump (again using same electricity) to refinery --> Refine it using same electricity --> Transport it to fuel station using diesel created from same process earlier --> Diesel engine with 40% effeciency.

One estimate says to refine 1L gasoline(not diesel) requires 1.3kwh electricity.

EV car:
Make Electricity with coal, nuclear and renewables --> Transmission losses --> Charging losses --> Electric motor 90% effeciency.

Battery minerals need energy to produce but that is one time production and no where close to oil production.

Last edited by SKC-auto : 9th May 2023 at 15:07.
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Old 9th May 2023, 16:00   #53
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

I hope this isnt the kind of stuff that will be the fodder for some crazy petition which is them upheld by trigger happy judicial process. I love my Diesel AT Creta. I get a sense that its performance has only gotten better and better with the kms clocked up. Traveled today to a place near Nasik from Pune. The fuel gauge was barely disturbed.

Last edited by fhdowntheline : 9th May 2023 at 16:03.
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Old 9th May 2023, 16:26   #54
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Two tweets by the Petroleum and Natural Gas Ministry since a few hours say that the:-

(Both tweets were posted around 12.02 pm on 09.05.2023)

(1)
Quote:

Report of the Energy Transition Advisory Committee #ETAC has been received by the #MoPNG. The Govt. of India is yet to accept #ETAC Report.
https://twitter.com/PetroleumMin/sta...J8qsSuXFg&s=19

(2)
Quote:

The suggestions of #ETAC relate to multiple ministries & a range of stakeholders including States. Consultation with various stakeholders on the #report are yet to be initiated. No decision has yet been taken on #ETAC recommendations.
https://twitter.com/PetroleumMin/sta...U-FHDN-kg&s=19

There are a lot of stakeholders including multiple central ministries and state governments plus a range of stakeholders going by tweet #2, with whom discussions are to be done. The recommendations could face uphill journeys (also 4x4 journeys) if state governments come into the picture.

Last edited by anjan_c2007 : 9th May 2023 at 16:28.
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Old 9th May 2023, 19:39   #55
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4 wheelers in Big cities by 2027

Mod note:Trimming quoted post, please avoid quoting entire large post for short replies. Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SKC-auto View Post
Yes, if the diesel appears magically at our fuel stations.
========
Battery minerals need energy to produce but that is one time production and no where close to oil production.
Need specific data and correlation to verify any claim. I am aware of coal based powerplant efficiencies and availability of power till consumption point. I will be glad to look at data on crude oil extraction till consumption.

Evs have good potential in india provided we move to renewables and even today power generation cost from wind or solar for 1 MW is around 5-8 cr and availability is not more than 40% for a year.

Blended diesel is good option as mentioned in the report. Completely banning diesel may not be a good option and also moving completely to EVs will be a bad alternative. ��

Last edited by Jaggu : 9th May 2023 at 19:45. Reason: Trimming quoted post, please avoid quoting entire large post for short replies. Thanks.
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Old 9th May 2023, 20:11   #56
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4 wheelers in Big cities by 2027

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sushil Kumar View Post
Evs have good potential in india provided we move to renewables and even today power generation cost from wind or solar for 1 MW is around 5-8 cr and availability is not more than 40% for a year.

Blended diesel is good option as mentioned in the report. Completely banning diesel may not be a good option and also moving completely to EVs will be a bad alternative. ��
EVs are fine even today compared to ICE cars, we cannot move all energy generation to renewables and put a stop to ICE vehicles one fine day. It's a continuous process where we keep adding Renewable energy, charging infra and EVs.

Yes, constructing a solar park will cost 5-8cr per 1MW, it perhaps costs more for coal plants and costs more than 10x to construct new nuclear. Solar, Wind and Battery storage are the cheapest energy options we currently have.

I do not agree with blanket bans without prior planning, having said that diesels even if blended have no future.

Last week California announced ban of purchase of new large Semi diesel trucks from 2036, diesel will die even in large commercial vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Altocumulus View Post

When it comes to PM2.5 particles, DPF traps 95-99% of it.
And then what happens to the PM particles? They are burnt again to even finer particles and sent out of the filter back into the air.

Last edited by SKC-auto : 9th May 2023 at 20:18.
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Old 10th May 2023, 10:28   #57
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

If they have any such plans shouldn't they first start with banning the sales, and then apply this 8-10 years later. A customer how just bought a 50 lac Fortuner today in 2023 or a 2 crore landcover, is suddenly told 4 years later you can't drive it. How is this fair when they are charging lacs in road tax, GST and what not !! Don't know what these guys smoke up before coming up with such proposals.
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Old 10th May 2023, 10:53   #58
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

Car manufacturers are already shying away from diesels, by 2027 I don't think a regular Joe's car will even have diesel as an option. Due to stringent laws on diesel people are also hesitating in buying diesels. By 2027 we might seldom see manufacturers producing any diesels. In terms of switch to EV we might see hybrids giving some serious competition. Toyota already cleared its stand on EVs and Maruti too might follow the lead so we might see more hybrids than EVs which according to me makes more sense.
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Old 10th May 2023, 11:01   #59
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

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Originally Posted by tarmacnaut View Post

The subsidy on Diesel should have been stopped a decade ago, IMO Diesel had one of the useless subsidy thanks to the bygone era "Socialist" Indian Government policies. The only people who benefitted from this are the already fat business men who never really bothered to pay the full tax but saved huge sums in diesel operated vehicles, both passenger/commercial and few diesel car owners.
In India under 18% of freight is moved by trains. This number is around 40% for the USA.
If all the trucks become EV or Petrol overnight the cost of items everyone uses will go through the roof and inflation will become unmanageable.

Diesel subsidy has direct impact on cost of production from farming pov and cost of transportation from logistics point of view.
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Old 10th May 2023, 11:06   #60
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Re: Petroleum ministry panel: Ban diesel 4-wheelers in big cities by 2027

We need to be prepared for hyperinflation and higher prices if the Diesel Ban comes into force.

Economy of diesel is not yet provenly achieved by PETROLS OR PETROL HYBRIDS.

Everything from veggies to your residence shifting to just about anything transport will for sure be very high in price.

The first thing that needs to be done is phase out and ban fossil fuel two wheelers and force electric by 2025.

Stop production of all two wheelers below 300cc using PETROL.
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