[ferrarirules]

Petroleum ministry energy transition advisory committee has submitted its final report and has recommended a diesel 4 wheeler ban in all cities with million plus population by 2027.

If implemented, this will be final nail in the coffin for diesel car and accelerate transition to EVs.

Link to the article - link

Excerpt from the article -

India should ban diesel powered four wheelers in all cities with million-plus population by 2027, and more than double the share of grid power in the national energy basket to 40% by 2035, the energy transition advisory committee of the petroleum ministry said in its final report

Source - Economic times

[Nilesh5417]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

Petroleum ministry energy transition advisory committee has submitted its final report and has recommended a diesel 4 wheeler ban in all cities with million plus population by 2027.

Haven't read the link since it's behind some paywall but first kill the vehicles and then increase the share of grid power? Not sure who reviews and signs off such reports. They really need to focus on fixing the entire power sector first. I am slowly losing faith in the current government - all policy recommendations / decisions seem to be made by some over zealous teams with zero consideration to impact that they might have on the population and with no collaboration across ministries. We are the most populous country in the world - this ain't Europe.

[tarmacnaut]

Good move, Diesel pollutes several times more than petrol. Its high time.

The subsidy on Diesel should have been stopped a decade ago, IMO Diesel had one of the useless subsidy thanks to the bygone era "Socialist" Indian Government policies. The only people who benefitted from this are the already fat business men who never really bothered to pay the full tax but saved huge sums in diesel operated vehicles, both passenger/commercial and few diesel car owners.

While the tax paying aam junta riding two wheelers and petrol cars always had to pay a much higher cost compared to diesel which was a complete reverse of other nations. Good that, recently this is changing and diesel prices are almost same as petrol. I hope the tax on diesel is also increased even further, to keep the petrol prices reasonable, let diesel become costlier. This will help both the environment and the general public.

[KPR]

Can any member in power distribution industry say whether Indian power generation will be sufficient to cater electric car charging in almost every household that own a car in 2027?

[qaqa]

The article is very light on details. I hope the committee's recommendations are much more detailed. When they mean 'ban' are they talking about new registrations or /and is there an end of life for existing diesels as well?

Conceptually, I think we need to move away from regulations focusing on a particular technology or fuel, and instead set out key parameters which vehicles need to meet - CO2, NOx etc, all based on RDE methodology. There should be a sliding scale of disincentives based on the overall emissions of a vehicle. After all, no single ICE technology is clearly superior to another in emissions - the higher particulate emissions of diesels are paired with better CO2 /km numbers for instance.

Lifecycle emissions including during manufacturing been to be taken into account before mandating scrapping of existing vehicles. Costs and emissions involved in retooling existing plants to manufacture EV/hybrids should also be considered.

[condor]

Million plus population will include pretty much every District head quarters. I dont think this is feasible.

Anyway, 2027 is a long way off. Situation across the globe is quite fluid right now. To add a personal note, my diesel is now 10. 2027 means it will be 14 then. Will wait and watch.

[epiccross]

Honestly, if they intend to "ban" diesels, why don't they just not allow any more new diesels? Incredibly stupid. They constantly allow new cars to be manufactured and then once we buy it paying all the extra taxes and premium, they just randomly pull this kind of boneheaded moves out of their hat. This is terrible.

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

Good move, Diesel pollutes several times more than petrol. Its high time.

The subsidy on Diesel should have been stopped a decade ago, IMO Diesel had one of the useless subsidy thanks to the bygone era "Socialist" Indian Government policies. The only people who benefitted from this are the already fat business men who never really bothered to pay the full tax but saved huge sums in diesel operated vehicles, both passenger/commercial and few diesel car owners.
.

This is a tall claim. A lot of working class folks who on heavy vehicles can only feasibly operate with diesels. Hence the subsidy. I don't think it's one stop solution, but to claim that somehow it just benefits fat businessman is utterly wrong.

Plus, if they want to "ban" diesels, immediately inform the manufacturers to stop manufacturing diesel engines. But oh no, they absolutely want the fat tax we're paying out of our pocket and then suddenly expect us to dump the vehicle in 2-3 years. What nonsense. Unbelievable that these rash and "quick fix" decisions are actually getting praises and not brickbats. Just improve electric infra, reduce taxes for EVs and continue to give subsidies, eventually everyone's gonna make the switch. When have these "quick fixes" worked?

[batish]

Originally Posted by ferrarirules

diesel 4 wheeler ban in all cities with million plus population by 2027.

If they mean, banning existing road worthy vehicles then Good Luck implementing this crap. Some people would be buying diesel vehicles in 2026, so that means their road worthiness is for a year?

Imagine the plight of buses and other heavy vehicles. I don't think they have figured out how to shift to EVs for Army and public transport in mountains where temperatures are on the colder side for most of the year.

If this is for new registrations even then corporate lobby would let them enforce this at all. Mahindra whose majority share is from diesels, cars like Creta, all would be limping.
Nobody wants a petrol with FE of 7-8.

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

I hope the tax on diesel is also increased even further, to keep the petrol prices reasonable, let diesel become costlier. This will help both the environment and the general public.

Increasing tax on diesel will have lots of effect on the general public as most of the transportation relies on diesel. This will directly affect food prices and price of all essentials and in turn, inflation.

Moderator Note:

Please be polite with your responses, even if you disagree with another member's view points. Everyone has a right to their views. Please stick to facts and avoid sarcasm. Thank you!

[Altocumulus]

I think it will be valid for BS4 and less diesel cars. BS6 diesel cars with particulate filters and DEF being added pollutes as much as, if not less than petrol cars.

Also if this is implemented and everyone moves to petrol, the cost of petrol will soar and the world will run out of oil even faster. You extract diesel as well as petrol from a barrel of oil. Now if we stop extracting diesel and compensate that with petrol, you would need more barrels of crude.

All this in turn will increase the price of all commodities since transportation costs and others will soar.

EV is not the solution. Apart from the infrastructure and range issues, everyone knows it is 80% more polluting to make the batteries than comparable ICE cars. Also unless you are using renewable energy to charge the cars, it ends up being more polluting. Noida can’t even supply continuous electricity and power goes 2-3 times a day in summer. Imagine if everyone added the load of charging their cars everyday.

All in all it is stupid to ban diesels.

[rakesh_r]

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

I hope the tax on diesel is also increased even further, to keep the petrol prices reasonable, let diesel become costlier. This will help both the environment and the general public.

Any increase in Diesel prices and the essential commodities will become more dearer, so yes, the general public will be benefitted for sure.

Originally Posted by batish

If this is for new registrations even then corporate lobby would let them enforce this at all. Mahindra whose majority share is from diesels, cars like Creta, all would be limping.

I strongly feel there are some vested interests behind this, someone who doesn't want Diesels to be sold.

[anjan_c2007]

Firstly, other than the Road Transport and Highways Ministry (and courts which have stepped in since 2016) do all other ministries have substantial powers conferred upon them to decide the life of motor vehicles? If so the Motor Vehicles Act,1988 can be suitably amended. Also if so, next time we can get decisions from the ministry of environment and forests, tourism, works and housing, steel, coal, railways ( diesel commercial vehicles are competitors for their passenger and freight business) and others who would be deciding on such matters.

Illogical, totally bureaucratic, hidebound and non application of the mind defines the decision by the civil servants and others in such a committee.

It means even trucks and buses with diesel engines in all such cities will face a ban. In that case we will have vehicle scrapping units to cater to the huge numbers of orphaned diesels post 2027, in almost every district. There are nearly 500 districts in India.

A diesel engine as we have always known is much more efficient in utilising the fuel fed to the engine by virtue of its design. It emits almost no carbon dioxide as compared to the amounts of this gas a petrol engine emits. The sulphur and nitrogen oxide together with SPM are harmful though. To reduce sulphur in emissions the Petroleum Ministry needs to supply ultra low sulphur diesel through refiners for which large investments need to be made. You supply diesel with avoidable, high amounts of sulphur and blame owners for the pollution. The SPM in emissions have been largely under control post the BS VI tweaks.

An example of the bureaucracy mindset and functioning came alive when relaxation of age for vintages from the decided 50 years to a revised 30 years was being discussed. A senior bureaucrat remarked :-

"do you people want those Ambassadors stranded everywhere, post breakdown on the streets, obstructing traffic?"

Unfortunately, these are the type of people who dominate the decision making process.

[shyampsunder]

Originally Posted by Altocumulus

EV is not the solution. Apart from the infrastructure and range issues, everyone knows it is 80% more polluting to make the batteries than comparable ICE cars. Also unless you are using renewable energy to charge the cars, it ends up being more polluting. Noida can’t even supply continuous electricity and power goes 2-3 times a day in summer. Imagine if everyone added the load of charging their cars everyday.

Typical EV myths that have been debunked time and again but here we are again.

Myth 1: EVs pollute more than ICE vehicles since power grid is not fully renewable. Fact: Even if the entire grid was coal-based, EVs are greener. Source 1, Source 2, Source 3

The reason for this is what you learned back in school: The ICE engine efficiency is very low despite a century of tech advances. Power plants are a lot more efficient and their emissions are more controlled and regulated.

Anyway, the discussion on the grid is a moot point because India is leading the world in rapidly adopting clean energy. Source

Myth 2: Since battery manufacturing emits more energy, EVs pollute more. Fact: lifetime emissions are what we need to compare the two technologies and it has been proven beyond doubt that EVs are greener. Source

Did you know that roughly 25% of the emissions due to ICE happen in simply extracting, refining, and transporting the fuels?

As for the grid, electricity generation has been growing by 10% every year in India. By 2030, the estimate is for 5% of the grid being used for EVs. Pretty trivial compared to how much our grid has been growing every year. Source

Apart from all this, India has plenty of other benefits: Reduction in lung cancer due to PM2.5 particles, reduced forex outgo helping our trade deficit, lower noise pollution etc.

All of this is pretty easy to find online, suggest members to do some basic reading and keep the bar on discussions on teambhp high.

[sunnsood]

I don't know about others but some folks in Delhi must be reading this and thinking : it's ban time.

Last year they banned all BS4 and below cars during polution months. This time with the above report they can easily ban all diesel cars and be done with it

[H0RSEPOWER]

Originally Posted by tarmacnaut

The subsidy on Diesel should have been stopped a decade ago, IMO Diesel had one of the useless subsidy thanks to the bygone era "Socialist" Indian Government policies. The only people who benefitted from this are the already fat business men who never really bothered to pay the full tax but saved huge sums in diesel operated vehicles, both passenger/commercial and few diesel car owners.

Assuming that most of the common citizens of our country do not have their own farms or factories to grow or make all their essential commodities, they buy those commodities from a local shop or market. And the items are delivered to the shops by diesel powered lorries only in most of the occasions. And while going to the places daily(any place which is beyond reasonable walking distance), most of the common people use the public transportation only (hope people are aware about the fact that car penetration rate is only around 7% per household in India) which is mostly powered by diesel! Therefore any reduction in the subsidy of diesel increases the fare of the public transport as well. Hence just by doing a two minutes analysis someone should be able to understand how this subsidy on diesel used to help billions of common Indian citizens!

[adwaith]

Originally Posted by qaqa

The article is very light on details. I hope the committee's recommendations are much more detailed. When they mean 'ban' are they talking about new registrations or /and is there an end of life for existing diesels as well?

The 'recommendations' portion of the report when talking about diesel 4 wheelers just says 'ban' in million+ cities and towns with high levels of pollution, and mentions differential taxation. Extracting the relevant portion below.

» Four-wheelers, including passenger cars and taxis, to partially shift to electric and partially to ethanol blended Petrol with almost 50% share in each category.

» Along with 40% ethanol vehicles, required changes in engine modifications and revision of emissions standards also need to be addressed.

» Diesel-driven 4-wheelers may be eliminated as soon as possible. Therefore, a ban on diesel-powered four-wheelers in all Million Plus cities and all towns with high pollution has to be enforced in five years, i.e. by 2027.

» Long-term focus on transitioning to EVs with CNG as transition fuel (upto 10 -15 years)

» Vehicles with flex-fuel capabilities and hybrids may be promoted in the short & medium terms. This can be done through application of fiscal tools like taxation.

I'm not able to upload the report because the file size is too large for the limits permitted, however, you can find the report here.

The recommendations about the diesel ban can be found on page 293(pdf page 320)

There are some more diesel specific recommendations on page 221(pdf page 248) which talks about the shift to EVs, LNG/CNG and ethanol blends, under the chapter about the future of diesel.

There is also a chapter on energy options for surface transport on page 135(pdf page 162). This chapter does talk about differential taxation and increasing the price of diesel but does not go into detail.