[Bibendum90949]

Originally Posted by techieaditya

Every car manufactured after 1st April 2023 has to be e20 compatible, that is the mandate as part of BS6 Ph2 transition. So you don't have to worry!

No such mandate. Please read couple of posts above.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5555654 (Toyota officially confirms that its earlier cars cannot be run on E20 petrol)

[ptaneja]

Let's bring Kia into picture here.
There manual clearly states E10 compatible fuel.
But when I opened a ticket, followed it up aggressively, multiple reminders and escalations, SC forwarded it to Kia Tech team, and this is what I got as an email from Kia directly -

"our gasoline vehicles are tested and certified for use of E20 mixed fuel, so there will be no damage/adverse effect to the engine."

Don't know what this govt is upto.

[Mustang Sammy]

Originally Posted by el lobo 6061

Hopefully a ECU update by OEM be enough to get current petrol engines to E20 combustion compatible.

Per my (limited) understanding ethanol is bad for seals, gaskets and other such rubberized components. The materials have to be chosen appropriately in order to deal with this fuel mixture.

In the US, unmixed gasoline is sold for lawnmowers, classic cars and other equipment that is not ethanol compatible.

Would that we had some kind of consultative process from the GoI instead of such policies being rammed down our (tax paying) throats.

It often feels like India is a democracy in name only, with an uncaring and unaccountable administration that does whatever it wants.

[Mustang Sammy]

Originally Posted by Hayek

Frankly this entire switch to E20 epitomises the lack of thought, lack of consideration for tax paying citizens and the “my way or the highway” attitude that our Government displays more often than not.

1) E20 is bad for the environment - it encourages cultivation of more sugar cane which is the most water intensive crop in a water scarce nation - and diverts land and water from growing necessary food crops (or if we have surplus food, from being available for afforestation).

Like I said in another post, adulterating petrol with ethanol is an outcome of the US agribusiness lobby which needed a way to use up their excess corn production. Converting it to ethanol through government lobbying with a captive market was a nice win for them.

India has no business going down this path, with far bigger issues to solve first before trying to fight first world problems.

[androdev]

I don't think one needs to be overly concerned with E20 fuel. Yes, it's not good news for sure but I'm optimistic that the modern engines can handle it. There are a couple of issues with ethanol blended petrol:

1. Corrosion problem:
Most engine components are designed and developed by few global companies like Bosch, Delphi, etc. Ethanol blending has started in early 2000s so it's reasonable to assume that corroding materials have been replaced long time ago in the fuel systems and must have seen regular update of materials used.

2. Ethanol+water problem:
Modern fuel tanks are sealed and do no allow air to enter (or fuel vapours to leave). So unless you fill poor quality fuel mixed with water, it's not that easy for the fuel to absorb water inside the fuel tank. Even if some level of ethanol+water phase is formed, this is not a big problem with modern engines that have closed loop real-time air to fuel ratio calibration.

In two-stroke engines, this water-ethanol phase will compete with the blended oil for bonding to the metal engine parts. Therefore, the engine will not have enough lubrication, and engine damage may result. In the case of four-stroke engines, the water-ethanol phase may combust in the engine. This combustion can be damaging to the engine because the water ethanol phase creates a leaner combustion mixture (i.e. air to fuel ratio is higher than ideal). Leaner mixtures tend to combust at higher temperatures, and can damage engines, particularly those without sensors to calibrate air to fuel ratios

Source: https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/fi...s/waterphs.pdf

3. Fuel efficiency:
I guess it'll be low but not a concern for engine health.

4. Fuel stability:
In general, it's not good to store petrol for long periods. Having ethanol (more oxygenated fuel) makes it even worse. It's a good idea to buy from busy petrol bunks and use you car regularly. If you are not using your car often, try to fill up in small quantities instead of parking the car with full tank for months. This rule applies with or without ethanol.

I'm not saying everything will be okie-dokie, but there is no need to panic. There are a lot of issues caused by ethanol in older engines (engines designed before ethanol was on the radar - think 1980s) which are not that relevant to modern engines manufactured with support for E10.

[Sidban85]

Does filling up in Shell, Jio BP or Nayara solve the problem or do they also have E10 or E20? Maybe it will mean higher fuel costs and planning fill ups but is that a solution?

Also, is there a way to visually make out at pump if the dispenser is having E20 or E10?

[androdev]

Originally Posted by Sidban85

Does filling up in Shell, Jio BP or Nayara solve the problem or do they also have E10 or E20? Maybe it will mean higher fuel costs and planning fill ups but is that a solution?

Also, is there a way to visually make out at pump if the dispenser is having E20 or E10?

The short answer is a no to both, you can find some relevant posts here:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5497120 (Speed 97 and High RON petrol discussion thread)

Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild

Sir it depends on availibity of ethanol at refinery level. There are times when retailers recieve unblended MS (motor spirit) and there are times when its blended. Mostly 80% of the supplies are blended. All MS supplies are blended if ethanol is there. Each company adds its own concoction of additives for their branded fuel to regular Blended MS. Each batch is tested for RON rating before being dispatched to dealer.

Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild

Going forward all MS fuels will be E20 some have started getting it some will in the future. But its bound to happen. XP95 at present is 10% ethanol going forward its gonna be 20% in line with Govt Diktats.

Originally Posted by Xaos636

Indian oil confirmed the percentage of ethanol blending of their higher RON fuels, the XP95 and XP100 to me via instagram.

Dear Customer, XP100 is blended with 10% Ethanol. In XP95, based on the availability of Ethanol at different supply locations/terminals, blending is done at 10% or 12%. Thanking you for patronizing IndianOil.

[itwasntme]

Originally Posted by Sidban85

Also, is there a way to visually make out at pump if the dispenser is having E20 or E10?

E20 fuel dispensers are supposed to be clearly marked so. In the absence of any such signage, it’s safe to assume that it is the ‘normal’ E10-12 blend.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by androdev

I'm not saying everything will be okie-dokie, but there is no need to panic. There are a lot of issues caused by ethanol in older engines (engines designed before ethanol was on the radar - think 1980s) which are not that relevant to modern engines manufactured with support for E10.

No need to panic? OP says Toyota clearly said you cannot run E10 car on E20 fuel. I'm sorry but how is that not a bad thing?

Then, can we be sure they will stop at E20? Who is to say they won't go for E30 next year, or next to next year? Then E40, E50, E60...Do we have to keep buying new car every time they change E content?

The greed on oil prices makes me cringe. They will not reduce fuel price by one paisa even if they sell us E100 fuel instead of petrol.

[cool_dube]

Originally Posted by hanzt

Finally after following up for over 3 months with Toyota, got their official reply on whether to use E20 fuel in cars where the manual states use E10 only.

Again, there is no clear plan from Toyota on how they are going to address this problem for all their existing customers who have E10 compliant cars.

Not sure if this is any different for every other manufacturer out there! If the owner's manual says that the car has to be run on E10 petrol then that is about it. No manufacturer would say "It is okay to use E20 petrol for an engine that has been certified with E10 petrol". Why does this topic warrant a dedicated thread? Just because it is Toyota? Not sure if I am missing anything obvious here

[ptaneja]

A screengrab from newly launched Tata Altroz CNG review video.
Even this has E20 sticker on the plate.

[ptaneja]

Originally Posted by cool_dube

If the owner's manual says that the car has to be run on E10 petrol then that is about it.

For me it was Kia and not Toyota.
Manual mentions compatible fuel as E10, but after lots of escalations, emails and calls, finally got a response from Kia directly ( and not from SC ) that their engines have been tested by E20 and should not be harmed by this fuel.

With regards to why a new thread was created, it's probably because Toyota lied in the first place that all their vehicles are E20 compatible.

[Auto spawn]

Today it’s all about the confusion and uncertainty of whether E10 cars will be able to take in E20 fuel without getting affected.

Now cars are being rolled out with E20 compliance. By now the pumps should have had some kind of labelling to show the fuel they’re selling!

What if this E grade keeps getting upgraded almost every year? Will we be expected to keep using our cars only for a year or two until they start becoming vulnerable to corrosion? Indeed some uncertain times ahead!

[Chewbacca]

I found this interesting excerpt from the 2021 report "Road map for Ethanol blending 2020-2025" published by NITI Aayog - Ministry of Petroleum and Natural Gas

I have underlined parts that I found interesting
-----------------------------------------------------------
Vehicle manufacturers may be asked to ensure that:

(9.5)
1. E20 material compliant and E10 engine tuned vehicles are rolled out all across the country from April 2023. These vehicles can tolerate gasoline blended with 10% to 20% of ethanol and also give optimal performance with E10 fuels.

2. Vehicles with E20 tuned engines are rolled out all across the country from April 2025.
These vehicles would run on E20 only and deliver high performance.

9.6 INCENTIVES FOR ETHANOL BLENDED PETROL VEHICLES
Globally, vehicles compliant with higher ethanol blends are provided with tax benefits. A similar approach may be followed so that the cost increase due to E20 compatible design may be absorbed to a certain extent, as is being done in some states for promoting EVs.

9.7 PRICING OF ETHANOL BLENDED GASOLINE
1. For better acceptability of higher ethanol blends in the country, retail price of such fuels should be lower than normal petrol to compensate for the reduction in calorific value and incentivize switching to the blended fuel. Tax breaks on ethanol as a fuel may be
considered by the government.

2. In order to bring predictability and to encourage investment by entrepreneurs in expansion / new ethanol capacities, the government may devise and declare a floor price of ethanol for five years with an escalation clause for purchase by OMCs.
-----------------------------------------------------------

[vvinayakpai]

Now that it is known that e20 fuel is not suitable for cars designed to run on e10 or e12 fuels, if I invest around 9 lakhs (minimum amount) on a car to procure a e20 fuel compatible car, will I not be back to square one with effect from 2025 when the government may decide to move to e25 or e30 fuel? What is the road map of the government? Wil it directly upgrade from e20 to flexi fuel or will it be gradually? With what confidence can I invest in a car in the present scenario?