[abirnale]

Background:
I am sure you are using the smartphone and know a lot of applications that are either one time cost or pay-per-use/ monthly, annual subscription based ones! Have you heard the BMW once started charging its car customer/ owners for CarPlay as subscription fee? Yes, not the one time activation or installation fee - the subscription fee to keep it alive!

When I bought my XUV7OO last year, I knew I was getting into something similar - the Adrenox feature set will be available only with subscription. I didn’t think much about it as it had host of features with it and I did not know the yearly fee then. It’s only now that I started realising it from many other folks whose subscription expired - I need to pay too next year!

With the latest ICE update on XUV7OO, Mahindra has gone a step ahead and enabled Map My India’s latest map offering called as “Mappls”! Read more about mappls here: https://about.mappls.com/

So far so good? This is great innovation, my thought when I first got it.

What's happening:
With my experience of using connected car features and latest experience about Adrenox/ Mappls, I started thinking: as more and more cars are coming up with connected car features, it inevitably requires the network/ internet connectivity. Which also means that every car will have a eSIM card and pay-per-use/ subscription is unavoidable if you want those features.

Of course this also has risks related privacy, tracking of your car as well as continuous spend on these features. More importantly - the automobile manufacturers have discovered the hen that gives golden egg: they can now charge you for these features in a recurring manner!

As a customer, we are thrilled to have the phone like features on the car ICE. In fact this is one of the USPs for many cars - ask M&M or Hyundai about it! As an indian car owner, we don’t see any issues in this model - with a huge population, everyone is craving for attention. We would be more worried if no one identifies us - तू जानता है मैं कौन हूँ? (Do you know who I am?) Fair enough - no issues so far. I am ok to pay for that service too and so are many. Whenever one gets the OTA updates for new phone features, apps - they love it. So why not have the same thing with car? Ok, again this fair too.

Someone from silicon city may think that the cars can be hacked, etc etc but that's ok - not all are target. So this is fine too.

What actually is a show-stopper in this frenzy is: while you move things to online, connected world features, what about features we always needed regardless of the connection? Like say your turn indicators or brakes? Don't be confused - this is the habit we are in: most folks can’t drive without directions. Ask them what happens when the google looses connections and/ or their mapping app stops working! The navigation to us is almost like assuming we have indicators to use every time we need it.

Mahindra, recently rolled out an ICE update to it’s newest cars: there are no more offline maps! Everything is connected: if you have connection, it will work. Else, go figure out yourself!

Some reference links you may want to visit on related stuff:

• Scorpio N - ICE Update gets Mappls: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post5583182 (Mahindra Scorpio-N Review)
• XUV7OO - ICE Update: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-...ml#post5583067
• Mahindra Thar: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/offic...ml#post5473258 (Mahindra Thar : Official Review)

My experience with one such feature of my car:
Read here more: XUV7OO looses offline Navigation Maps: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-...ml#post5583067

This increasing trend of connected features are good but that need not take away what already works in offline mode. In my car, the maps were perfectly alright - they were built by Map My India and had all data on the car ICE. Never needed internet connectivity. It may not be the best navigation software but I was always relying on it to get me out of the woods, literally.

Now for the craze of Mappls, M&M took away the offline maps

I am now left with online only maps on my car. The only rescue is: Google maps offline download feature: which may not be the ideal for navigation anyway for iPhone users. The reason I am not happy with this move is - M&M took away something from the car that was not broken. And I am unhappy not because it just got more sleek online only maps, but they gave me the eSIM network that is more unreliable that anything in the car - including legendary M&M electronics <sarcasm intended>!

The problem with eSIM only navigation software is also: inability to seek the GPS fix faster. The reliance of the non-existent network to get initial GPS fix is stupid idea when the car itself has it’s own GPS antenna. It happened to me - i drove for about 5 KMs without car known where it is on the map - this may just be a bug but then many other such things are waiting to be unleashed, I am dreading.

TL;DR - Its great to have innovative features, even recurring revenue generating features in car. I do not resist them. What takes my goat is: when then there is no connectivity, I still want car to have certain features that we have come to accept as must have - navigation is one of them. Next is what - indicators? #JustKidding

What are your views and experiences on this matter?

[GTO]

Thread moved from the Assembly Line to the Indian Car Scene. Thanks for sharing!

Going to our homepage today

[Dr.AD]

Originally Posted by abirnale

What are your views and experiences on this matter?

Great post, Avinash, and I agree with most of your points. You have explained the issues and the weird behavior of the OEMs very accurately.

However, I am unable to take a clear stand here as to who is to blame for. As a technology seller myself, I know that such subscription-based features is the future (unfortunately for many of us as consumers) in most areas of life. Every player in the technology ecosystem (including startups building new innovative solutions and selling to these OEMs) wants a subscriptions revenue. The investors (for these startups and other technology companies) want subscription/recurrent revenue. The stakeholders in the large software companies want recurrent revenues. So the whole technology/software ecosystem is pushing for these recurrent subscription revenues. And the automobile OEM, who often merely buy these products or their licenses, are pushed into this game of subscription revenues. Of course, I am not saying the OEMs are saints or they do not want a pie of this subscription money. Of course they are tempted by the spreadsheet calculations showing the subscription fees becoming a huge chunk of revenue over next 5 years (I have personally attended a few financial meetings where such subscription fees were shown to reach ridiculously high levels in 5 years; not that I believe in those predictions, but they look very powerful in the spreadsheets and board meetings), and they want to push for these subscription revenues from otherwise traditional product sale such as car.

I am not an expert in finance, so please correct me if I am wrong here, but I find it funny how the modern revenue model trends are. Most service companies who are having a strong service revenue still want to become a product company, and the traditional product companies (like automobiles, the classical example), who have strong product revenues, and trying hard to get subscription revenues. Everyone wants to try different and new revenue sources than what they have been used to and making most money from in the past.

Anyways, coming back to Mahindra, they are a different game altogether. In my Thar, there is no eSIM, and no connected features. So subscription is out of the question. Even then, they removed the offline navigation feature that they had when the new Thar was launched in 2020. Sometime in late 2022, they removed this navigation feature altogether.

Now it is possible MapMyIndia wanted to push a subscription license to Mahindra for Thar, and Mahindra had no way of pushing that to Thar owners since the car is not a connected car. So they removed it altogether. Or it is possible that Mahindra just decided not to pay the subscription/license fees to MapMyIndia and save some money for themselves. I do not know. I am purely suggesting the possibilities here. The point is, we do not know whom to blame for this or who/what is driving this new trend.

Personally for me, I do not miss the offline maps in the car. I almost never used offline maps in any cars in last 10 years, since the onset of Google Maps as the navigation tool. I download offline maps in Google Maps of all the areas I plan to visit for each trip, and that is working very well for me. Further, I have purchased a license of the MapMyIndia app on my phone, and have downloaded all the maps on my phone by paying the onetime fee. Now I have the offline maps and the offline navigation from MapMyIndia as Plan B, and Google Maps on phone as Plan A for my navigation. I have driven plenty of drives in areas with no connectivity, and yet never faced a problem for phone navigation.

[abirnale]

And finally I could catch this picture to make my point a little more clearer:



Why fix something that was not broken? There are dozen apps including food order on the go that are in ICE and instead of adding this mappls there to try and make it better, M&M chose to replace the existing properly working offline navigation!

[Ltinsane]

This issue is not just limited to automobile sector. There are so many other gadgets which ends up either not working or in landfill due to "Always connected" features. Till the governments doesn't come up with an End-of-Life protocols, the future looks bleak for offline services.

This always connected system in automobiles isn't going to work in the long run. What happens when 4G network shutdowns? Since world has moved on to 5G or 6G networks. It already happened with Subaru in USA. They were using 3G network for their cars, well 3G shutdown and they had to replace network cards in every vehicle that had active subscription plan.

There certainly are no laws regulating what is offered in these subscription, the OEMs could easily add or remove features with OTA update and as a consumer we have no control or say over it.
What if you decided to buy trim A over trim B of the same car based on one particular feature you liked (There may be several different features, but You based your decision on one particular), and OEM decided to remove that feature with an Update?

It same with other gadgets such as always connected video games. Like man I just want to play offline cricket on my Play station, If my internet is down, I can't.
Or the 8 years old tablet laying around which is useless as Google had ended support for that Android version and I cannot even watch youtube on it. Won't the same happen to cars? One day you start your engine, and the infotainment system displays the error that you can't play the music anymore since your hardware is not supported for latest version of music player. You might be forced to buy new Infotainment unit.

[shrk_18]

Originally Posted by abirnale

Background:
What are your views and experiences on this matter?

My few points,

• Do not force the update, give an option, till the subscription is valid
• Vodafone Idea is the worst network I have seen in the 20 years I have been using cell phones. Its in stone age, if you are going to make this change, either change the network provider or allow people a choice of their networks. ALLOW FOLKS TO PORT OUT !!! (Caps intended)
• Subscription revenue is fine, but for people who pay, allow download of offline maps

This is just not done from M&M.

[vredesbyrd]

Expecting Mahindra (or any manufacturer in India) not to be greedy is like expecting a dangerously driving scooty-riding didi to accept her mistake or an e-rickshaw not to run into you

I think it is best to depend on google maps (via phone connectivity). MMI wasn't very good anyway

[aseem23]

Not a good decision by Mahindra. Anyways, Mapmyindia maps are useless. Google Maps via Android Auto, Apple Carplay will always be a step ahead.

[binand]

Originally Posted by vredesbyrd

I think it is best to depend on google maps (via phone connectivity). MMI wasn't very good anyway

Ah. But what if they made Android Auto / Carplay support a subscription-only feature? If you were to ask me, that would be the end of civilisation as we know it.

[vredesbyrd]

Originally Posted by binand

Ah. But what if they made Android Auto / Carplay support a subscription-only feature? If you were to ask me, that would be the end of civilisation as we know it.

Knowing how things are playing out these days (subscription-based nonsense being led by Mercedes), we cannot rule out that possibility

[aseem23]

Originally Posted by binand

Ah. But what if they made Android Auto / Carplay support a subscription-only feature? If you were to ask me, that would be the end of civilisation as we know it.

BMW tried it in the past for $300 as a one-time fee to activate AC, but it backfired and received alot of pushback from the customer forcing BMW to end subscription model for Apple Carplay.

[PreludeSH]

Most of the fancy features will become subscription based. If you dont subscribe, using all these big fancy displays will be useless with no features. No wonder they are all enthusiastically upgrading the displays.

Cant we even use bluetooth based navigation ?

[RMN]

Automobiles these days - especially with the advent of EV's have essentially become a gadget. And like with most gadgets over the last 15 years - it is going to be massively out of date in 5 years.

The said challenges have been around for some time now with any gadget that's heavily dependent of the software - and is unfortunately making its way to the auto sector.

[diwakarmuthu]

Globally many brands like Ford, Porsche, Tesla, BMW, Toytoa, Cadillac amongst others already have subscription plans in place. Called "Function as a Service (FaaS)" this is an upcoming new revenue stream for automotive OEMs. With the invasion of technology, this is seen as a logical extension to conventional car ownership.

As a customer what would the pros and cons be?

Pros

• Subscription enables OEMs to keep revenues ticking even after the car is sold. This is a big opportunity and I doubt if the OEMs will let go
  
• As an OEM, you are essentially locking the customer with the company. Long term customer loyalty I guess
  
• Even if the hardware is not there, OEMs will eventually come up with a plan of selling the hardware separately, thus enabling additional revenue source

Cons

• If you are buying the hardware, you rarely leave it without exploring the features. When the car is sold, it is imperative that as customers we end up buying the subscription too.
  
• If your sales person is not aware of the complete features, you could end up with a car that has bloated features that one would rarely use
  
• This change of car ownership experience will make customers feel cheated

In my view Subscription works only when there is connectivity, I don't understand M&M's strategy of removing it from vehicles that are designed to go places. How would someone stay connected?

Maybe, this is their way of saying, we will cut the connection first and customers will accept to pay up for the offline services

[HowardRoark]

I absolutely hate this trend. If any feature can be taken away from a car then I no own that car. I feel like being at the mercy of someone else and the vehicle no longer represents freedom to move. Also with this connected trend comes with more points of failure which takes away from peaceful ownership. Same applies to the ev scooters. If updates are to be done dealer can do it at a price when car/bike goes for service. So offline needs to be preferred and that option should remain.