[fastestindian]

Can we really blame them though?

Elevate's monthly sales numbers are what make me an automobile cynic for India. The whole C2 segment is a mystery honestly. I am not saying Elevate is a gift to mankind but it's got most of everything people said was missing with Kushaq/Taigun - bigger butch look, higher ground clearance, the Japanese reliability, NA engine to alleviate any pricing or other maintenance concerns, ADAS, sunroof, etc at a much more reasonable price. May be the interiors can be a bit more out there and the sunroof bigger, but nothing that justifies its current numbers.

People can come up with a few more placeholder reasons that might explain a 10-15% difference, but nothing that explains the stark difference between Creta and the rest. I suspect that's the prime reason brands are, and will be increasingly so, apprehensive about bringing in their EU/Japanese successes or doubling down on their investments here.

I suspect there is just the plain old "default choice" thing at play here. Creta is the default choice for people who don't really want a car that excels at any specific thing. If you want a good car today and don't really know of, or care about, anything in general, you'll go TD a car you see and like on the road, which today, equates to walking into a Hyundai/Kia showroom.

On the other hand someone (like the OP) has got to be looking for very specific things to walk into a Honda, VW, Skoda showroom.

I can't imagine how this changes, may be when and if a large population proportion desires something "specific" or plans on "upgrading", there might be an incentive for the non-Koreans to bring in their A game.

[ashish2135]

Originally Posted by fastestindian

Elevate's monthly sales numbers are what make me an automobile cynic for India. The whole C2 segment is a mystery honestly. I am not saying Elevate is a gift to mankind but it's got most of everything people said was missing with Kushaq/Taigun - bigger butch look, higher ground clearance, the Japanese reliability, NA engine to alleviate any pricing or other maintenance concerns, ADAS, sunroof, etc at a much more reasonable price. May be the interiors can be a bit more out there and the sunroof bigger, but nothing that justifies its current numbers.

I suspect there is just the plain old "default choice" thing at play here. Creta is the default choice for people who don't really want a car that excels at any specific thing. If you want a good car today and don't really know of, or care about, anything in general, you'll go TD a car you see and like on the road, which today, equates to walking into a Hyundai/Kia showroom.

I bought my first Honda when i got home the Elevate last year and it has become a family favourite because of its strong points as mentioned by you. It has its shortcomings but overall its the perfect product for my use-case.

You have got the right idea about why Creta's sales are unbeatable. It basically herd mentality mixed with the long feature list. People believe that they are buying the best VFM product when they go for Creta which has an overall good reliability.

[Chrome6Boy]

Originally Posted by iSubham

They concluded that, to price the Elevate competitively against the GV/Hyryder, would require significant investments to localise the hybrid powertrain as Maruti/Toyota have done. And since they have neither been confident about investing deeply in India, nor do they have a clear path ahead, they decided to simply skip it and minimise any potential losses.

At this point, I don't have much confidence about Honda's future in India. The Elevate has'nt been the success they had hoped. Sales YoY are flat. All said and done, they are barely selling 5000 units a month (sure exports are strong now, but they need a strong home market, to see value in India in the future)

It seems clear that Honda does not want to invest in India, the Elevate was an attempt at bringing a new product in with the lowest possible effort.

Originally Posted by lsjey

Wanted to add a few more points on my frustration with Honda:

1. Honda makes excellent and reliable cars. There are enough people IMO who are willing to pay a premium for good cars.

This may have been true in the past but cars in general have become a lot more reliable now. The problem is that Honda's reliable cars are from a decade ago, the world has moved on but Honda seems to be too conservative.

Originally Posted by fastestindian

Can we really blame them though?

Elevate's monthly sales numbers are what make me an automobile cynic for India. The whole C2 segment is a mystery honestly. I am not saying Elevate is a gift to mankind but it's got most of everything people said was missing with Kushaq/Taigun - bigger butch look, higher ground clearance, the Japanese reliability, NA engine to alleviate any pricing or other maintenance concerns, ADAS, sunroof, etc at a much more reasonable price. May be the interiors can be a bit more out there and the sunroof bigger, but nothing that justifies its current numbers.

The Elevate is not really competing with the potential VW customers who like exciting tech driven cars but rather the Maruti reliability / mileage customers. Maruti has them beat with their aggressive strategies, partnerships and most importantly investments.

Honda as a brand doesn't seem exciting or "new" any more and their reliance on age old customers who liked their cars a decade ago is telling.

I predict a Ford / GM like exit for Honda from the Indian market soon. I think it is already in their plans judging by their investment strategy in India, especially their reluctance to localise the hybrid powertrain.

[AJ56]

As a City, Accord and Amaze owner all I’ll say is Honda got brain damage somewhere around 2012-13 and never recovered. They went full hog on the budget end of the market not realising that wasn’t their USP, trying to take away sales from Suzuki and Hyundai.

This is unfortunately not just limited to India, they’ve had a fall from grace in many developed countries too. Lack of innovation and overall cost cutting in the newer models are possible contributing factors.

[Noctis]

Originally Posted by fastestindian

Elevate's monthly sales numbers are what make me an automobile cynic for India. The whole C2 segment is a mystery honestly.

People can come up with a few more placeholder reasons that might explain a 10-15% difference, but nothing that explains the stark difference between Creta and the rest.

I feel like that is giving too little credit to the incredible effort the Koreans have taken to understand and deliver what the market wants.

Creta comes with the option of NA Petrol/Turbo/Diesel engines mated to CVT/DCT/TC and even a clutch-less manual. It has a wide range of variants that makes sense for the price and with in-demand features like the panoramic sunroof available even from the upper-mid range. There is also the advantage of a massive dealer and service network and trust in the brand to keep invested in the country for the foreseeable future.

Meanwhile Elevate doesn't even come with their hybrid option. It has the potential advantage of being a safer car but Honda cannot market it until they get it tested. They could equip the V/VX to be more VFM similar to the city and undercut the lower variants of the competition, but right now variants below ZX feels too boring from the inside.

I say all this as Honda fanboy who has had at least one of their cars in the house for more than two decades, it just feels like they are doing the minimum to stay in our market now and frankly that seem to reflect in the sales.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Noctis

They could equip the V/VX to be more VFM similar to the city and undercut the lower variants of the competition, but right now variants below ZX feels too boring from the inside.

I blame poor sales of the Elevate on exactly this; the bad interiors in all but the top trim. They look especially drab and boring unless you go for the ZX. A deal breaker for most folks who aren’t looking to buy the top variant. They don’t need to bother with multiple engine and transmission options like Hyundai since they have the best drivetrain options simply in the guise of the 1.5ivtec with either manual or automatic. But no hybrid makes even the kind of folks who buy the top variant of a car, reconsider since there’s not much to show-off about to their friends and colleagues and the drab interiors in all but the top variants makes sensible value-conscious family buyers reconsider since there’s absolutely no wow factor to be had when spending the post-covid big bucks on such a machine

[SithDefender]

When we think of the older Honda cars, there is a certain excitement because these were all fun cars.

The first City offered explosive power, the Civic was a legend which begged you to chase the roads, the Jazz was a masterpiece of contortions offering unparalleled space and flexibility that is still difficult to match even today. The Accord was a genuine legend. Later, even the Brio offered go-kart like performance in a tiny body.

But then things started to change. The Mobilio was ugly and weird. The BR-V tried to tidy up things, but it was too little too late. The CR-V sputtered and ended even before we could get a good look.

Today, the City, Amaze and Elevate give the impression of a wannabe tired wrestler who is well past his glory years. I have the Brio and I love it. But this Honda soul and character has gone missing today. It's just not the Honda of yore.

[omar]

As a forever honda fan, I just wish they were more aggressive like Hyundai.

It is possible to go mass market yet stay a bit premium. Honda doesn’t realise that.

Their older cars are simply amazing. Accord, 1st gen Jazz and the 2nd gen CRV. I think their current global product lineup is also quite good. Having driven the Hybrid Accord, I can say it is a fun car to drive and deserved to sell along the Camry. So does the new Jazz, along with the i20.

They need to be aggressive, and get these cars at the right price. No one will be able to match them if they do.

[lsjey]

The most frustrating thing with honda is lack of social media interaction/presence of senior leaders. While VW/Skoda made a lot of visible efforts despite issues, Honda is not much visible in the social media platforms and engage users. They should actively engage in social media platforms and connect with customers and promote their brand.

Anand Mahindra is a big presence for Mahindra. Similarly was the last India head of VW/Skoda. While this is indeed personality driven and cannot be easily replicated, Honda should make an effort.

Regards,
Lsjey

[shancz]

Originally Posted by lsjey

Whats their future going to look like with lackluster sales and few aging products in their portfolio?

Just look at the cars that've succeeded in Elevate's segment i.e. Creta/Seltos/Grand Vitara/HyRyder and the one's that haven't done well i.e. Taigun/Kushaq.

Some points stand out :
- The market needs freshness to sell. The number of iterations of the Creta/Seltos since launch have kept them at the top despite formidable competition from the Suzuki-Toyota twins and even the buzz around the Skoda-VW twins and Honda. The design has to feel radically different from previous generation to retain the "feeling of new.
- You need to have a strong sway package, just one strong area won't cut it as it won't appeal to everyone. Creta/Seltos always introduce features new to the market. It doesn't set benchmarks in ride or handling or responsiveness but the overall package works well for the buying majority.
- In this segment a premium feel is a very important factor, cost is secondary to that which the Creta/Seltos aptly display. Somehow Elevate isn't able to match the expectations. I haven't driven it so can't tell but the Taigun doesn't feel premium at all. Regardless of a soft corner for VWs of yesteryears, even I couldn't bring myself to consider buying it post a test ride.

The Elevate/Taigun/Kushaq had one thing in common, none of them looked very new at the time of launch and coupled with smaller dealer network, cost cutting and other issues specific to each they didn't sell well.
Social media campaigns can only bring someone to the showroom, what happens after that is on the merit of how each company treats, manages and understands the market through their products.

What would Honda do?
My personal feeling is that they don't have an India focussed approach as this isn't their prime market. Things were working fine as long as they were able to sell us whatever they were selling in the rest of the world(City, Civic, Accord, CR-V) but as our market changed and demanded a focussed approach they started cutting off the models which weren't making financial sense to them. Amaze was an ok attempt but not enough.
But, I expect them to give it another shot with newer SUVs which I hope would learn from the Elevate experience.

[Hemantteen]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

It is not the engine. Maruti does well plonking its 1.5L engine everywhere.

And it is not the lack of turbocharging. I don't think people outside TeamBHP care. I suspect people are more apprehensive about power generated by 1.0L Turbo (of Hyundai/Kia/VW/Skoda) than a "big" engine like 1.5L iVTEC. Also, while Hyundai/Kia/VW/Skoda have 1.5 Turbo, Honda/Maruti/Toyota have hybrid tech. Basically, 1.5L iVTEC is a good match for 1.0L Turbo in terms of price, power or acceleration. And 1.5L iVTEC + hybrid seems to be a good match for 1.5L Turbo in terms of price, power or acceleration.

It is probably the lack of models (just Amaze, City & Elevate). Sure, Kia too has just 3 (Seltos, Sonet, Carens), but their design/looks/interiors have the wow factor when compared to evolutionary look of Honda models like Amaze/City.

One more contributing factor is lack of showrooms/service stations. I have a Honda and the nearest service station is 20km away compared to Maruti/Tata/Mahindra/Hyundai which are within 5 kms. Proximity to showroom/service station is a big factor for purchase decision making.

[Carcrazy60]

The top end Honda Passport costs about 48000 usd. It’s manufactured in Japan. Has acres of space and all the goodies one can desire. Has a very good reputation in the US. Had they brought it it here, I think it would have given the Fortuner a run for its money.
Now I hear BS7 is going to be implemented from next year. Where Honda thinks it is going is a mystery.

[TorqueIndia]

Honda ELEVATE /WRV, stats so far :

Total production from AUG 23: 62K units
Domestic sales : 39K
Exports : 23K
Honda India exported more than 10K WRVs to Japan in Q1 FY25.

Looks like honda is selling only ZX variants in Indian domestic market, haven't seen any updated ( 6 airbags) lower (VX,V SV) variant delivered so far.

Autocar

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Honda ELEVATE /WRV, stats so far :
Total production from AUG 23: 62K units

So from Honda India's point of view, they are doing well.

Assuming average ex-factory price of Rs. 14 Lakhs for Elevate, Honda India clocked revenues of (62000 units x Rs. 0.14 cr) = Rs. 8,600 cr from just ONE model in a year. That's Rs. 860 cr in profits assuming a profit margin of 10%.

Honda India's FY23 numbers:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...-up-521-a.html (Honda Cars India records profit of Rs. 1,430 crore in FY23 | Up by 521%)

[kgt.v8]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Looks like honda is selling only ZX variants in Indian domestic market, haven't seen any updated ( 6 airbags) lower (VX,V SV) variant delivered so far.

I have been Honda showroom in Hyderabad twice to look at Elevate. First time I saw ZX variant getting ready for delivery and 1 more ZX waiting for next day delivery. On second visit I saw V Manual being fitted with accessories for delivery.
Every other Elevate that has pulled me towards it in the parking lot has been ZX. With recent update, VX variant with 6 air bags looks VFM compared to similar cars