[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by SmartCat

So from Honda India's point of view, they are doing well.
That's Rs. 860 cr in profits assuming a profit margin of 10%.

Seems so, IMO they need a capacity expansion for new Amaze and exports balancing.

Originally Posted by kgt.v8

I have been Honda showroom in Hyderabad twice to look at Elevate. First time I saw ZX variant getting ready for delivery and 1 more ZX waiting for next day delivery. On second visit I saw V Manual being fitted with accessories for delivery.
Every other Elevate that has pulled me towards it in the parking lot has been ZX. With recent update, VX variant with 6 air bags looks VFM compared to similar cars

Noticed these lower variants delivered are old inventories, never seen a 6 airbags - V/VX reported so far.

[SithDefender]

Originally Posted by fastestindian

Can we really blame them though?

Yes we can, and we should! Honda has only themselves to blame for reacting too late as usual. They must identify the potential and launch products that the customer wants, instead of expecting the reverse.

Imagine if the Elevate was launched with the Honda City hybrid engine. It would have certainly made a difference to the overall sales, as I believe it would have been superior to the Hyryder/Grand Vitara twins. The refusal to reuse this existing engine is confounding, especially when they are in such dismal sales. And this is coming from someone who really wants Honda to succeed and not go the GM/Fiat way.

[07CR]

Originally Posted by fastestindian

Can we really blame them though?

We can, we should and probably we (their sales) are doing it already!

What is Elevate's USP really?

Does it have the fastest engine? No- Seltos/Creta do.
Does it have the most fuel efficient motor? No- Seltos/Creta (Diesels)/Hyryder/GV (Hybrids) do.
Is it the most spacious 5 seater in the segment? No- Seltos/Creta are.
Is it the most comfortable 4 seater in the segment? No- VW Taigun/Skoda Kushaq (due to their bucket rear seats) are.
Is it the most refined with best NVH in the segment? No- Seltos/Creta are. Even VW/Skoda twins/ MG Astor with their NA/4 cylinder engines are more refined.
Is it the most feature rich car? No- Seltos/Creta are.
Does it have the most safety features? No- Seltos/Creta have.
Is it 5 star rated by GNCAP? No- VW/Skoda are.
Is it the cheapest car to buy? No- NA trims of MG Astor/Creta/Seltos are in the similar/cheaper range.
Does it have the most premium interior? No- The Seltos has.
Is it the only reliable car in the segment? No- GV/Hyryder/Seltos/Creta are equally reliable.
Does it have the biggest boot ? Yes.

Now despite these shortcomings, what could they have done to improve sales?

• Introduce the same City Hybrid in Elevate.
• Equip Elevate as good as atleast the City.
• Make the Elevate's interiors as good as City.

But they refuse to do even the such simplest of things. Even back in the day, they could not integrate the City diesel with Amaze's CVT, and thereby affecting City diesel sales.

They have the tools at their disposal. But they simply refuse to use them.

Only having the biggest boot space is not going to take it very far.

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by 07CR

We can, we should and probably we (their sales) are doing it already!

What is Elevate's USP really?

Is it the most comfortable 4 seater in the segment? No- VW Taigun/Skoda Kushaq (due to their bucket rear seats) are.

Feels like you had never experienced an ELEVATE, we got it in our friends circle and it's one of the most comfortable car in the segment with almost a duster like suspension.

Is it the most refined with best NVH in the segment? No- Seltos/Creta are. Even VW/Skoda twins/ MG Astor with their NA/4 cylinder engines are more refined.

Honda vs MG petrol engine comparison felt the most awkward thing here, nobody even considers MG as an ICE maker or seller. Refinement the reviewers were nit-picking is not about the engine, but it's about the cabin insulation. Had a back to back testdrive of ELEVATE and Grand Vitara, both engines were equally refined ELEVATE with iVtec being vocal only after 2.5-3K rpm, otherwise it's silky smooth. On the other hand Vitara felt refined throughout the range with very slow in performance.

Does it have the most safety features? No- Seltos/Creta have.

Can you list out those, please? Will be helpful for the prospective customers.

Now despite these shortcomings, what could they have done to improve sales?

• Introduce the same City Hybrid in Elevate.

Kindly check the sales figures of CITY and Grand Vitara HYBRIDs, If Maruti and Toyota are struggling to sell a hybrid nobody else can do it in a better way.

IMHO the USPs of ELEVATE are VFM pricing ( first time for a Honda), excellent ride quality, the right balance with performance and fuel economy, Honda's reliability and resale value, standard safety kit and a global product image.

You will understand it only when you are in the market with money in the hand, despite being trashed to the core from the start Honda was able to sell 39K units in the crowded domestic market, quite an achievement I would say.

[07CR]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Feels like you had never experienced an ELEVATE, we got it in our friends circle and it's one of the most comfortable car in the segment with almost a duster like suspension. You will understand it only when you are in the market with money in the hand, despite being trashed to the core from the start Honda was able to sell 39K units in the crowded domestic market, quite an achievement I would say.

I extensively test drove it last year when I was in the market. My comments are from the same. While there is nothing too bad in the ride quality department, comparing it with Duster's suspension is too far. In low speed ride quality the Creta is still the best, while at the high speeds the Seltos/Kushaq/Hyryder remain better. Regards to sales they are on a rapid decline now doing less than half of what it did last year/early this year. As a former Honda owner, I just hope with such negative response to Elevate they do not shut shop.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Honda vs MG petrol engine comparison felt the most awkward thing here, nobody even considers MG as an ICE maker or seller. Refinement the reviewers were nit-picking is not about the engine, but it's about the cabin insulation. Had a back to back testdrive of ELEVATE and Grand Vitara, both engines were equally refined ELEVATE with iVtec being vocal only after 2.5-3K rpm, otherwise it's silky smooth. On the other hand Vitara felt refined throughout the range with very slow in performance.

I am not just comparing engine refinement. I am talking about the overall NVH. Overall NVH of Elevate is very sad, while the refinement of IVTEC alone is acceptable.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Can you list out those, please? Will be helpful for the prospective customers.

Proper TPMS, which tells exactly which tyre is low on pressure.
Front parking sensors. (A must considering the hood design of Elevate)
360 degree parking cameras
Blind view monitors in the instrument cluster.
Rear ADAS features.
Radar + Camera based ADAS vs the only camera based one of Elevate.
6 airbags standard from base variant (I guess Elevate now get its too)
Missing auto dimming IRVM in lower variants.
Adaptive Cruise control with stop and Go feature
Rear Disc brakes

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Kindly check the sales figures of CITY and Grand Vitara HYBRIDs, If Maruti and Toyota are struggling to sell a hybrid nobody else can do it in a better way.

City hybrids pricing was messed up from day 1. Nothing could save it the way it was priced.

As per this article GV hybrid sales account for 23%. A sizeable number considering the average monthly 10K sales of GV. https://www.carwale.com/news/grand-v...maruti-suzuki/

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

IMHO the USPs of ELEVATE are VFM pricing ( first time for a Honda), excellent ride quality, the right balance with performance and fuel economy, Honda's reliability and resale value, standard safety kit and a global product image.

Depends on what you call VFM. Honda pricing has always been optimistic. With Elevate they cut corners almost everywhere and came to a par pricing with the competition's NA variants. Like I mentioned earlier, I found the ride quality acceptable but nothing extra ordinary. Honda can only play the reliability card for so long. With the Koreans and MS/Toyota also existing in the same segment, the reliability card doesn't hold much value.

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by 07CR

I am not just comparing engine refinement. I am talking about the overall NVH. Overall NVH of Elevate is very sad, while the refinement of IVTEC alone is acceptable.

Your point is clear now compared to the previous one.

Even VW/Skoda twins/ MG Astor with their NA/4 cylinder engines are more refined.

Proper TPMS, which tells exactly which tyre is low on pressure.
Front parking sensors. (A must considering the hood design of Elevate)
360 degree parking cameras
Blind view monitors in the instrument cluster.
Rear ADAS features.
Radar + Camera based ADAS vs the only camera based one of Elevate.
Missing auto dimming IRVM in lower variants.

At what prices are these features offered by the competition?
Completely agree with you on TPMS- can be easily offered at least like a warning in other hondas and also the front parking sensors are important for all crossovers.

6 airbags standard from base variant (I guess Elevate now get its too)
Adaptive Cruise control with stop and Go feature

6 airbags and standard safety kits are available from base 11.91L.
ADAS with ACC is available on ELEVATE ZX MT at just 15.41L and CVT at 16.43L.

City hybrids pricing was messed up from day 1. Nothing could save it the way it was priced.

As per this article GV hybrid sales account for 23%. A sizeable number considering the average monthly 10K sales of GV. https://www.carwale.com/news/grand-v...maruti-suzuki/

Grand Vitara sold only around 12K hybrids in 2023, which is just around 11% of total Vitara sales in 2023. Waiting for H1 2024 break up.

Yes being only offered with petrol powertrains without segment popular powertrains like Diesel or CNG, Honda might not be often getting shortlisted in the segment shoppers. Same is the case with VW twins.

[07CR]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

At what prices are these features offered by the competition?
Completely agree with you on TPMS- can be easily offered at least like a warning in other hondas and also the front parking sensors are important for all crossovers.

Astor NA CVT top end gets most of these and its priced at 20.1L, a price difference of about 60K from Elevate ZX CVT.
Seltos NA CVT gets the TPMS, Front parking sensors at about the same price as the Elevate ZX CVT.
Creta is the only one with a substantial price difference of about 2.7L, but it gets all of the above. That said, people are willing to pay for that, and hence the numbers Creta has.

Point is it is severely lacking in safety as well as general other equipment. Hence, my earlier comment about it not being VFM.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

ADAS with ACC is available on ELEVATE ZX MT at just 15.41L and CVT at 16.43L.

Elevate doesn't get the stop and go functionality of adaptive cruise which the Creta and Seltos both get, is what I mentioned.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Grand Vitara sold only around 12K hybrids in 2023, which is just around 11% of total Vitara sales in 2023. Waiting for H1 2024 break up.

I am not sure of your source, but as per my source, MS claims that they sold 23% of GVs which were hybrids. Considering 10K average monthly sale of GV, 2.3K per month is a substantial number for hybrids alone from MS. https://www.carwale.com/news/grand-v...maruti-suzuki/ Infact its more than Elevate's complete sales for last month. An Elevate Hybrid would surely have upped its quotient.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Yes being only offered with petrol powertrains without segment popular powertrains like Diesel or CNG, Honda might not be often getting shortlisted in the segment shoppers. Same is the case with VW twins.

Only Honda is to blame for this. Like I mentioned in my earlier post they shot themselves when didn't provide a diesel CVT with City, and now are repeating it with no turbo petrols, no diesels, no hybrid options.

[TorqueIndia]

Originally Posted by 07CR

Creta is the only one with a substantial price difference of about 2.7L, but it gets all of the above. That said, people are willing to pay for that, and hence the numbers Creta has.

Point is it is severely lacking in safety as well as general other equipment. Hence, my earlier comment about it not being VFM.

Severely lacking in safety as well as general other equipment? And we all know how much the Carens struggled to score a good rating with all those standard equipments. Depends upon the ethics, culture and heritage of the brands.

Elevate doesn't get the stop and go functionality of adaptive cruise which the Creta and Seltos both get, is what I mentioned.

To be frank, I'm not sure about how useful it will be on real roads, even people are often uncomfortable with AEB.

I am not sure of your source, but as per my source, MS claims that they sold 23% of GVs which were hybrids. Considering 10K average monthly sale of GV, 2.3K per month is a substantial number for hybrids alone from MS. https://www.carwale.com/news/grand-v...maruti-suzuki/ Infact its more than Elevate's complete sales for last month. An Elevate Hybrid would surely have upped its quotient.

To be precise maruti sold 12.8K units of Vitara Hybrids in 2023 out of total 113K at 11%,
Q1 2024 : 2231 units of hybrids out of total 35K units at 6 %, Autopunditz.

[07CR]

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

Severely lacking in safety as well as general other equipment? And we all know how much the Carens struggled to score a good rating with all those standard equipments. Depends upon the ethics, culture and heritage of the brands.

All of the mentioned features are for preventing the crashes in the first place, something which GNCAP never measures. So let's not get diverted with that discussion.

Also, Elevate has not yet been tested in GNCAP, so lets not get another unknown variable into the mix. Also this highlights another missed opportunity by Honda, if they are indeed confident about Elevate's structure, why isn't the car yet sent for testing by Honda? Won't this result in better word of mouth publicity for Elevate?

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

To be frank, I'm not sure about how useful it will be on real roads, even people are often uncomfortable with AEB.

In my experience of driving a Verna and Seltos, it has been very useful, and made life easier since minimal to nil accelerator/brake input is needed even in moving city traffic.

Originally Posted by TorqueIndia

To be precise maruti sold 12.8K units of Vitara Hybrids in 2023 out of total 113K at 11%,
Q1 2024 : 2231 units of hybrids out of total 35K units at 6 %, Autopunditz.

This seems more like an article compiled by some member of Autopunditz website. There is no source mentioned for the same.

The link I provided quotes the numbers directly from Maruti. PFB the snip of the same.

[SNOWY227]

Why isn’t Honda keen on launching a hatchback in India? The current hatchback options are very limited and unexciting. The Brio was a very cute little capable car for the city roundabouts, and the Jazz was a proper, spacious hatch

[lsjey]

Was watching this video from autocar india. New Amaze is not coming in 2024 and is pushed out to 2025. No wonder there are no test mules on the road. Also no new cars until 2027. This video goes into the Honda strategy and provides in-depth analysis.

Here is the link to the honda amaze discussion:

https://youtu.be/KdOnFT_Kajg?t=39m40s

Regards,
Lsjey

[Voodooblaster]

Honda desperately needs more cars in it’s stable

What I wish Honda still sold:

1) Competitively priced 1.2 litre Jazz with sunroof and magic seats
2) Competitively priced 1.2 litre WR-V with sunroof and CVT
3) Top variant Jazz and WR-V with 1.5 litre IVTEC MT and CVT ( WRV desperately needed more grunt )
4) 4th Gen City with MT/CVT and sunroof (at least till the 6 airbag norms are rolled out by GOI)
5) Competitively priced 5th gen city with and without Hybrid
6) Competitively priced Elevate with and without Hybrid
7) refreshed Amaze ASAP

[volkman10]

Yes, it is true that Honda has no plans for any new car launches in India this Year.

What is more puzzling is majority of the launches are beyond 2026 and more shocking is, in segments that is in demand NOW and would be dated by 2026/27 as the markets will move-on.




Link: (Honda developing global platform for future models in India)

[bijims]

Honda is taking its own sweet time to bring in new launches and it will hurt it badly when all other competitors have newer updated product lines, whereas Honda is stuck with the same cars without any significant updates for 5 years or more. It's such a shame that a Brand like Honda with good quality cars doesn't care for a market like India or has devised poorly laid out plans.

[sam264_2000]

Originally Posted by Voodooblaster

....
What I wish Honda still sold:
.....

Instead of 4th Gen City, I would add Brio 1.2L MT & CVT to the list. It was one heck of a car and can give the Maruti and Hyundai a run for their money if priced sensibly.