[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Rtech

ET, the irony was in the fact that you stated you hated the attitude of the company. You gotto admit its funny to hear that coming from a Palio owner!

Nah no problem with the attitude, to me the major reason Palio failed was perceived and in some cases actually low fuel average. Service has never been a concern atleast for me. It was a right car at the wrong time, if it was lauched now after Swift and Getz, it would have been accepted well by the market. When palio was launched, fuel average of 10-12 kmpl for a hatch was considered poor, remember 800 then was still very hot selling.
Sale dwindled hearing low fuel average stories (in india fuel average sells) and hence the after sales had to take a hit. A dealer just cannot sustain on low sales so they had to cover up somewhere. FIAT can be blamed because they didnt try n reverse the slide and when they did with the NV it was too late. In india once a wrong perceptions is made, it cant be overcome easily. For example... Fords are still considered to be high maintenance cars even though they actually arent and hence the resale value is low.
Ironically the perfect example I can give you is the Octavia only. Its still selling inspite of all the horror stories of after sales service and expensive maintenance, which is actually true in most cases, majorly becuase of its fuel average. The petrol version hardly sells.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by anandrs

One should consider the mileage while determining the running costs. Not just the service costs. I have been torn between buying a Civic and Octavia. I have been browsing the tbhp threads for the last 3 weeks and there can be no doubt that the dealership/A.S.S is bad for Skoda. Similarly, there is no doubt that it is a good car. But in terms of cost, if one were to factor in the fuel consumption for skoda and civic with the prices of diesel and petrol, the cost of ownership would tilt in favour of Skoda.

When comparing Civic and Octavia, you have said that the cost of ownership favours Octavia. As far I can see, you have added these costs: fuel costs+service costs. Now add these for Skoda: headache costs, time wasted, electrical and other gremlins costs that pop up after 1-2 years in almost all European (forget East European) cars, more service station visits. These costs are and should be considered and that they are considered (if not in India where only fuel cost enters the picture) are the reason why Civic and Honda vastly outsells Skoda or its parent VW in most of the markets, where customers do have more than 1-2 choices.

[vasudeva]

When I wanted to buy between Corolla/Civic/Octavia/Optra, the Corolla/Civic/Optra dealers ran after me, came to my home for a TD, were mostly patient and willing to spend time having tea and chatting. Now when I called Skoda dealers in Delhi/NOIDA/Gurgaon, at all times, some peon picked up the phone, took my number, said someone would call me, which never happened. Once I got through to a salesman, who asked me to come to the showroom for a TD at a time suitable to him. If this is Skoda before a sale,...

[Rtech]

Originally Posted by Gto

Hondas have major services every 20,000 km which cost between 5,000 - 10000. For the rest, it is anywhere between 700 - 2000 including the engine oil.

Great. we now have a general idea. What is the break up of the costs though? Could you include that as well? Like I said, Rs.2000 for a complete service is terrific, but lets have the break up.

Originally Posted by GTO

You own a Skoda - Tell me how much it costs to service 8 times over?

As you know, I only ever went to the *** for services during the warranty period. The "free" services totaled Rs.5,xxx/-. This was in 2004. March 2005 onwards its done at independent shops. The car is serviced and oil changed as per the service notification that comes up between 7500-9000 km, depending. For me, thats about once every 10 months.

Even at an independent garage, I have always paid Rs.5,000+. I mean, just the labour costs at any good independent garage will set you back atleast Rs.750. And the cost has nothing to do with the car being a Skoda.

The oil costs the same no matter which car it would be, the filters etc all cost within a few hundred of each other, the washing is the same. So I am really struggling to see how Honda, at their authorised service centre, can carry out a change of 4.5 liters of oil, oil filter, air filter, (fuel filter doesn't apply to the petrol cars usually) and labour charges all for Rs.2,000. We are talking out of warranty period here ofcourse. Its truly a marvel of cost management.

Originally Posted by GTO

VW recommends API CG-4 for their TDi's. There are some mineral oils that meet this recommendation. Check your Octy service manual.

Again. Could you give me a link to where VW officially recommends a CG4 grade only? I asked earlier for the links. VW only specify their own VW marking for oil. This has been quite a bone of contention with many VW owners across the globe as VW dealers are very strict on using oils that conform to the applicable VW standard. But, I am open to correction if you show me. And yes GTO, I know what is in my manual. As mentioned in my earlier post, they only recommend it for top ups if nothing else is available.

Originally Posted by GTO

Absolutely not. What I am asking is for them to make available the cheaper oils which meet VW specifications. And sell them as "Skoda branded" oils just like Honda did when my Vtec goes for a service.

Rush, all the VW oils for all their diesels are synthetics. At the risk of repeating myself far too often, VW already has its own standard. Across the world, the cost of Synthtics is almost the same as the mineral oils. Its only here we pay 100% more. If I get you correctly, you mean to say that VW should tie up with, say Shall Helix, stick on a VW/Skoda label on the can and price it at Rs.500? I guess they could. But usually when a manufacturer slaps their logo on the oil, the prices go up, not down.

Originally Posted by GTO

That is offering value to the customer. But Skoda India is hardly known for being a customer-centric organisation, isnt it? Sadly the parent company's attitude filters down to most of their dealerships.

Value? C'mon man. Which car company in India is a saint. Was the OHC that sold for 9 lakhs in India value to the customer? Is the NHC which sells for 9 lakhs without airbags value? These are aspects directly controle by a company. Penalising a auto maker because the price of the oil they specify that is made, priced and sold by a third party company happens to cost more in India than in the rest of the world means the company is taking its customers for a ride? Again, I blame the oil company here, not the car company.

If its the dealer service you speak of, then that is an epidemic in India unfortunately as we do not have clear cut laws and regulations to them. It is surely not something unique to any one manufacturer. On BHP itself we have reports of Hyundai dealers assisting in the theft of vehicles, Tata dealers taking a bad car and making it worse, Ford dealers smashing customers cars during test drives and not accepting responsibility, Mercedes supplying cars with faults engineered into them, Fiat dealers who suddenly close shop or switch over to another manufacturer, Honda dealers who try and palm off a damaged car. The list is endless.

And that is also why I don't bother with them! I pay the same or almost the same outside as well, but atleast I know the job is done, and done well.

Originally Posted by Gto

Its important to consider that "cost of acquisition" is being sensibly replaced by "total ownership cost" in purchase considerations.

I'm not good at maths, but let me try:
Accord/Civic: 0-15000km
Total service cost (as per your chart)=4100
Averge FE: 8
Total Fuel consumed: 1,875L x Rs.55=1,03,125/-
Total Fuel + service costs upto 15,000Km = Rs.1,07,225/-

Octavia TDi: 0-15000km
Total service cost (as per my experience in '04)=11,500
Averge FE: 12 (its higher, but lets stick to the lower figure)
Total Fuel consumed: 1,250L x Rs.35=43,750/-
Total Fuel + service costs upto 15,000Km = Rs.55,250/-

Total ownership cost (as you put it) for the Skoda over the first 15000km is almost exactly half that of the Accord or Civic.

Even if you take Rs.10,000/- per service for the Skoda, the saving every 15,000km over an Accord or Civic is a whopping Rs.43,475.

So, over 3 years and 45,000km, you would have saved Rs.1,30,425 by running the Octavia TDi.

Now we can argue that the petrol skoda will not give these savings. Sure. But maybe if Honda valued the Indian customer that much, they would have launched their own diesel here, which surely would have taken all the sales away from Skoda while providing even cheaper running costs to us.

[shuvd]

@ Rtech - I'm not a technical person. But, isn't Indian diesel too low quality for the highly advanced Honda Diesels?

[Rtech]

Now now ShuvD, behaive! ***said like Austin Powers***

[anandpadhye]

What about stuff like the A/C blower and evaporator coil cleaning charges?

Here in Pune with so much pollution and dust (and with the blower setting strictly on "recirculation" only, never on "fresh air" as there isn't any), I got my AC blower cleaned and disinfected twice during the 3 years/50000KM period. Deccan honda charged me around 1300 for this (rs. 250 per hour is their labour charge) and this ac cleaning for NHC means opening the dash and is quite painful - takes 5 o 6 hours

What does this job cost for a Skoda at their A.S.S?

Note: No AC gas refill. I clearly told them there is *NO* gas leakage in my car so I should not be charged for that. Otherwise that costs another 1300 or so but then gas refill can be done anywhere outside for around 500.

[Rtech]

What does this job cost for a Skoda at their A.S.S?

Its been 3.5 years and I have no need to do this! So no idea! But...

as per the figures, you have Rs.50,000 in hand every 15,000km to deal with these unexpected circumstances.

[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by shuvd

@ Rtech - I'm not a technical person. But, isn't Indian diesel too low quality for the highly advanced Honda Diesels?

Honda diesels? @Shuvd - are you talking about the honda generators which run on diesel?

Originally Posted by Rtech

Shantanu, an oil change can be carried out anywhere and by any one. Its extremely simple. Even the oil filter location is in the most accessible position. Reseting the service indicator can be done by you itself. The procedure is given in the Skoda manual.

@shantanu - I know a garage where a guy will be happy to change the oil for 50 bucks, ok 100 for a Skoda owner . all you have to do is to buy the engine oil from the market.

[vasudeva]

Highly advanced Honda Diesels!. Prior to the 2.2 litre i-CTDi unit in 2003, Honda had never made a passenger car diesel unit. However it is now working on a bigger V6 diesel engine for use in bigger cars such as Acura SUVs and Pilot.

[anandpadhye]

Originally Posted by Rtech

I'm not good at maths, but let me try:
Accord/Civic: 0-15000km
Total service cost (as per your chart)=4100
Averge FE: 8
Total Fuel consumed: 1,875L x Rs.55=1,03,125/-
Total Fuel + service costs upto 15,000Km = Rs.1,07,225/-

Octavia TDi: 0-15000km
Total service cost (as per my experience in '04)=11,500
Averge FE: 12 (its higher, but lets stick to the lower figure)
Total Fuel consumed: 1,250L x Rs.35=43,750/-
Total Fuel + service costs upto 15,000Km = Rs.55,250/-

Total ownership cost (as you put it) for the Skoda over the first 15000km is almost exactly half that of the Accord or Civic.

Even if you take Rs.10,000/- per service for the Skoda, the saving every 15,000km over an Accord or Civic is a whopping Rs.43,475.

So, over 3 years and 45,000km, you would have saved Rs.1,30,425 by running the Octavia TDi.

Hey, now you are again tempting me to go for the Laura

[vasudeva]

The calculation seems OK and in fact the Octavia is cheaper in fuel+service costs, period. Of course, it would be expected to be more expensive than say a Corolla in terms of costs to repair other faults. As Rtech said in an earlier post, each has preferences and if fuel+service savings were the only buying consideration, then Civic and Corolla would not sell at all.

My experience with the Corsa (and my brother's experience in the UK with Astra and now Volvo, and my wife's sister exp. in the US with Toyota) has led me to think that lesser headaches and lesser visits to the service station is worth the extra fuel cost.

[shuvc]

Originally Posted by Rtech

So, over 3 years and 45,000km, you would have saved Rs.1,30,425 by running the Octavia TDi.

That was a compelling comparo !
Just wanted to add another perspective. If I'm not wrong the TDi that has features to match the Civic is the Elegance and not the Rider ? If so, I think the Elegance costs 1L+ on road than the Civic. (The Rider costs 20-30K more than the 1.8S Civic in Kolkata)

So total cost of ownership is similar and one may not have the extra 50K per 15K kms in hand.

Originally Posted by Rtech

Now we can argue that the petrol skoda will not give these savings. Sure. But maybe if Honda valued the Indian customer that much, they would have launched their own diesel here, which surely would have taken all the sales away from Skoda while providing even cheaper running costs to us.

Really looking forward to Skoda's response to the Corolla diesel, if it's launched next year.

[anandpadhye]

GM had a real chance to show Skoda their rightful place in the market with Optra Diesel - lost purely on the skin deep beauty part.

Otherwise Magnum engine is state of the art. And now to my horror, I am learning from this thread that Skoda TDi's are still using timing belts! Come on, it's 2007 A.D.

So everywhere everyone is falling for the looks (me included). Hardly any one out there who cares what's inside.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

GM had a real chance to show Skoda their rightful place in the market with Optra Diesel - lost purely on the skin deep beauty part.

Optra isnt bad looking at all. This alone can't be the reason for Optra selling less than Octavia.