[gendarmee]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Ask tata to make a nano for one lakh with
Front Disc, better speedo, front engine, front wheel drive, 3 cld, two wipers, maruti like after sales and service.
And you will come to know what is the real cost.

Well, i see that you are comparing the two cars to death to what u think a car has to offer not looking at what the car offers for just a lakh of rupees.

Well, the maruti 800 was introduced in 84 as a complete use and throw car. got one for 40000 then, a decent quality flat in the city cost about 1.5-2.2 lakhs then.
Different technology doesn't mean is below its bad tech, 3 new cars have the speedo in the centre of the dash. one is a high end SUV. its nothing new or something bad.
How can u say that the Nano's 2 cylinder engine is bad, even before a test drive? just because its a 2 cylinder engine? i'm sorry but your being very opinionated there. Similar must have been the opinion of people when the M800 came out, they must have laughed at the 800CC comparing it to an Amby's 4 cylinder.
And why? does a car have to be front wheel front engine to qualify to be a car? the beetle has the engine in the rear which is also Air cooled.People take it out to race in the desert in the soaring heat where other fluid cooled engines cant at all go the volovo Br7's are rear engined & The car that broke the sound barrier on land was steered using the rear wheels not the front wheels. Many critics, it had.
One wiper problems? it does the job. Even the Merc SLK or CLK has just one wiper (dint u just compare some car to being as good as a merc?)
Front disc, the rear ones are still drums!! Such a light car probably doesnt need discs, nor would it go very fast to brake that very quickly, its not like the drums dont perform well or something.

There is a digital display in the meter console and it EURO 4 compliant, that makes it sell able anywhere in the world.

I like the nano, may buy it only if it comes out with an electric variant.
But aleast its completely Indian!

Im sorry to say your reasoning seems more of that of a frustrated person,as in, your are looking for follies where there isnt any major folly, trying to put the car down by doing so.
Nothing personal here.
Regards.

[1100D]

I still dont understand the "Innovator" part of this thread. What did Maruti Invent or innovate on.

It was just a controversial arrangement involving names like Sanjay Gandhi to bring in low-cost cars from the japanese car maker. An existing low-cost car was just brought in, in the name of collaboration. What innovation did we see here.

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by gemithomas

Well, we all loved the Maruti 800 (and the alto even more but lets keep that out for the time being) ever since it was launched. The innovators of the "Peoples car" concept in india charged us nearly Rs.2,00,000 for this baby. But now we see india's most ethical business brand TATA coming out with an equally comparable car at half that price. SO what do you guys think. Have we been paying more to the maruti people just becouse we did not have another choice in the same category? Were they actually ripping us while we really thought they are giving us Value for Money?

At the time the Maruti came out, it was the cheapest car to buy (only the Dolphin was cheaper, but those with vested interests ensured that the Dolphin never did numbers by restricting their production capacity). It cost about Rs.48,000 (with premiums starting at 25,000 above this - depending on color and model).

Like 1100D says, they were NOT innovators in that they didnt make a new car for the market. However they were marketing innovators for bringing the small car concept into the market.

Maruti did a good job when it came in, but the Government created another monopoly with over 14 years of quotas and license raj when they prevented other manufacturers from joining the party. They were protected and pampered.

Tata wont be protected or pampered. Already there are about 4 manufacturers gunning for the Nano - something that was not allowed to happen with the 800.

[gemithomas]

Originally Posted by 1100D

I still dont understand the "Innovator" part of this thread. What did Maruti Invent or innovate on.

It was just a controversial arrangement involving names like Sanjay Gandhi to bring in low-cost cars from the japanese car maker. An existing low-cost car was just brought in, in the name of collaboration. What innovation did we see here.

Oh! i just meant bringing in a new product in a market that did not have anything similar.

[aaggoswami]

@gendarmee:

I compared the two keeping in respect the topic that "Are we paying more to the innovator?". My point is that the cost of 800 is justified. And regarding the Engine, well 3 cld is enough for most of indian conditions. 2 is definately not. And we compared 800cc engine to Ambassador because it was just the competetion considering the number of cars avaliable. Right now, as I have said before, 800 and Nano are from two different segments.

The cost of 800 still stands justifies because it has more features and is not just for being cost effecient.

Yes, everyone is happy that Tata could make this happen and yes we are proud that it did make us proud. Sure. But you just cant pinpoint Maruti for what it has/is offering espeically in the 800.
They have done their job and still 800 is a great first proper car.
(The above statement does not mean that Tata Nano is bad).

[gemithomas]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

We personally have lost some of our close friends when the entire steering column of Indigo ( under warranty, in fact had just come off service) came lose

Let us not target 800 because it is in another class i.e. higher class.

And have you thought of the another thousands and more who have died out there because they bought a car that did not stop even with its "front disk brakes"!!! Its not about being able to buy it and taking it on the highways or driving fast. Its about the probability of returning from an accident that could always happen. Probably it was their fault. they never realised that it would not stop as they thought it would, probably they were not bothered that it was made of thin sheet that just twists and turns without any crumble zones or safety features. Probably they were wrong..they were taken over by the perfect marketing halo that made them think that they have got the a 'car'

I'm not a maruti hater or a 800 hater. Of course it has its plus points like any other car out there. But i would not take this kind of "they saved the world attitude"

[aaggoswami]

@ Druva:
Sorry for being off topic, ( I apologize), but what all i meant that paying more for other makes is justfied.

@gemiThomas:

Again I was just trying to justify that overall quality of even 6L Tata car is not great and so the higher price is justified.

Moreover, as people in 800 despite having disc brakes have crashed, let us see what happens in Nano. When 800 was launched, the market was immature for the public, and similarly the car buying public (90% of Nano buying) will be not properly taught to drive and lets look forward to result.

800 has crumple zones! believe it or not, but it has and none of the cars have appeared in the worlds most reliable safety test i.e. EuroNCAP (New Car Assesment Programme).

Considering that Mr. Tata mentioned that Nano is crash tested, how about Nano being tested by Euro NCAP along with 800. This would prove the most itichig question.

[supremeBaleno]

@gemithomas, are you by any chance implying that there are cars around that can save your life in any kind of accident, just because they use thicker steel for the body shell ? I hope not, for you would be very wrong.

Tank-like build is a nice jargon to flaunt, but reality would be quite different. In normal city-traffic situations, you might come off with just a small dent, while the M800 might suffer more damage. But take hi-speed situations and the results would not differ much as far as saving lives is concerned.

Cars having safety features in India is a big joke anyway, with even those that cost 3-5 times the M800, not having them. So, why point out lack of safety features in the M800 only as a con ? And if I am right, the M800 does have crumple zones.

Braking depends on many factors, including but not limited to, speed from which braking is attempted, stopping distance, special braking features like ABS, etc. I dont think there is any data to support your contention that braking-related accidents happen more on the M800 than on other cars.

FYI, we keep hearing here about Ikons having poor brakes, compared to the competition. But, I think in most cases of normal driving, this would not be such an issue. But then if you have someone doing a 140kmph (legal limit of 80kmph), attempting a sudden brake and crashing, I would not blame the car.

Originally Posted by gemithomas

i would not take this kind of "they saved the world attitude"

I dont think they saved the world or anything like that. They just happened to sell cars at a time when we did not have anything that came close to it in quality, for even much above the price point. Govt intervention might have helped, I aqree. But still they were the ones who put India on wheels.

[finneyp]

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

800 has crumple zones! believe it or not, but it has

I can't beleive this! Too much to digest!!!

If it had crumple zones, so may lives would have been saved esp on a head-on collision, but sadly it is not the reality!

[aaggoswami]

I can't beleive this! Too much to digest!!!

If it had crumple zones, so may lives would have been saved esp on a head-on collision, but sadly it is not the reality!

Then how would even MRS. Diana died in paris tunnel crash?
800 was the first car to have Unibody construction in india.

It is popular misconception that 800 simply lacks crumple zones. Even the first generation 800 in which we had to open the rear glass to access trunk had crumple zones and the present generation 800 ( basically second generation 800) also has crumple zones.

If you stand true that crumple zones 100% save lives, then no body even in Santro, Wagon R or even in Indica would have died.

I am not sure what is the case with nano. Hope it also has and if Mr.Tata is really sure about the safety of Nano, why does it not appear in Euro NCAP.

[gemithomas]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

@gemithomas, are you by any chance implying that there are cars around that can save your life in any kind of accident, just because they use thicker steel for the body shell ? I hope not, for you would be very wrong.

Tank-like build is a nice jargon to flaunt, but reality would be quite different. In normal city-traffic situations, you might come off with just a small dent, while the M800 might suffer more damage. But take hi-speed situations and the results would not differ much as far as saving lives is concerned.

Cars having safety features in India is a big joke anyway, with even those that cost 3-5 times the M800, not having them. So, why point out lack of safety features in the M800 only as a con ? And if I am right, the M800 does have crumple zones.

Braking depends on many factors, including but not limited to, speed from which braking is attempted, stopping distance, special braking features like ABS, etc. I dont think there is any data to support your contention that braking-related accidents happen more on the M800 than on other cars.

FYI, we keep hearing here about Ikons having poor brakes, compared to the competition. But, I think in most cases of normal driving, this would not be such an issue. But then if you have someone doing a 140kmph (legal limit of 80kmph), attempting a sudden brake and crashing, I would not blame the car.

I dont think they saved the world or anything like that. They just happened to sell cars at a time when we did not have anything that came close to it in quality, for even much above the price point. Govt intervention might have helped, I aqree. But still they were the ones who put India on wheels.

I think i has specifically mentioned that i'm talking about the probability of getting out of an accident. which depends on loads of factors that could include
1.SAfety features
2.Handling
3.Driver ergonomics
4.Attainable Speed to Manageable speed ratio
5.Braking efficiency
6.And of course road conditions.

Moreover i guess you have not read the whole thread. i was responding to a specific comment wherein i ws trying to chip in my views.

Well. I think we are moving quite far from the original topic. And this too is moving into the same old 'tank' and 'tin' tussle. Lets focus of better things.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by gemithomas

I think i has specifically mentioned that i'm talking about the probability of getting out of an accident.

You might be right. But just that you also seemed to make it sound as if all these applied only to the M800.

Originally Posted by gemithomas

i guess you have not read the whole thread.

I take care not to comment on any thread, without reading up the full background, however time-consuming it might be.

Originally Posted by gemithomas

I think we are moving quite far from the original topic. And this too is moving into the same old 'tank' and 'tin' tussle. Lets focus of better things.

I believe you started it. From a thread which was just about a high price being charged by MUL for the M800, you took it to the safety issues direction. So, I agree, lets get back to the price.

Originally Posted by finneyp

I can't beleive this! Too much to digest!!!
If it had crumple zones, so may lives would have been saved esp on a head-on collision, but sadly it is not the reality!

I dont know what is so tough to believe in a car having crumple zones. We are not talking costly and hi-tech stuff like airbags or ABS here.

And BTW, the M800 does have crumple zones - since I was just a little doubtful, checked the manual online.

Just having crumple zones won't save lives in ANY accident. Let's get real here.

[finneyp]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

And BTW, the M800 does have crumple zones - since I was just a little doubtful, checked the manual online.

Can you pls post the link here for that online manual?

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by finneyp

Can you pls post the link here for that online manual?

Maruti Suzuki India Ltd: Maruti 800, Alto, Zen, Wagonr, Versa, Esteem, Baleno, Grand Vitara, Gypsy, finance, insurance, accessories, true value, fleet management solutions

But, you will need a login-password (free registration) to access stuff like manuals, which i think come under the "Owners" area.

[druva]

seems the thread is moving away from the original question.

we are forgetting the marketing basics. Prices of commodities is not based on what it costs. It is mainly based on the supply vs demand. Based on this the market discovers the price. If its above seller cost he makes profit - else he folds. Simple?

Now the innovator (in this case the early mover) has advantage in tilting the discovery process and setting his own price which I am sure is above M800 costs. Maruti can not be faulted for the lack of business sense in other competitors to challenge this discovery process and lower the price. Given the 20 year advantage, Mr. Tata had to adopt drastic measures to challenge. That is the simple reason he has priced it at 1 lakh. He is trying to create a new market place and get the early mover advantage.