[kbk_75]

Originally Posted by veyron1

There's a reason why the grey market exists, like everyone else has so clearly pointed out.

When the R1 was expected to be launched, everyone feared for the "grey market dent-effect". But with the official prices commanding a premium of over 3 lac rupees, the grey market still flourishes on.

Call me the Devil's advocate, but since we all know of the legality (or the lack thereof) of the import-practices going around, isn't it fair that guys like Mr.C exist, so that some poor felllow can finally get his hands on the import of his dreams....

The "poor fellow" in question could be a hard-working enthusiast, who would never be able to get his hands on a brand new import with the paltry sum that he makes every month, but has dreamt of owning car "x", "y", or "z", irrespective of it's condition...new, or used....

Thanks to Mr. C & his likes, many used imports (pre-owned by the same politicos & film stars in question) lie around for prices that would fetch another boring Santro.

There are twice as many imports lying around in Delhi than anywhere else. But we don't see that many arrests & DRI raids there now, do we?

Just pondering over both sides of the proverbial coin, IMHO....

I could not disagree with this point of view more. Dishonesty and malpractise should never be justified in the name of some higher purpose. It's easy to do that, but it's still wrong.

[agentsmith2]

Originally Posted by kbk_75

I could not disagree with this point of view more. Dishonesty and malpractise should never be justified in the name of some higher purpose. It's easy to do that, but it's still wrong.

Really ? Circa 1932 and it was illegal to make your own salt. Guess who broke the law back then ?

Yada yada - but your blanket definition of dishonesty/malpractice can't be applicable to all and sundry. Granted thought that doing it for a *car* is bordering on the unreasonable.

Having said that, I think the greater purpose of the import-duty law is to ensure foreign manufacturers set up their bases in India - and provide for jobs and share technical expertise with Indians/India. More demand for Land Cruisers should get Toyota to build LCs here, instead of fully importing/etc. In theory, atleast.

[SirAlec]

Having said that, I think the greater purpose of the import-duty law is to ensure foreign manufacturers set up their bases in India - and provide for jobs and share technical expertise with Indians/India. More demand for Land Cruisers should get Toyota to build LCs here, instead of fully importing/etc. In theory, atleast.

What do you think of the price of BMW m3 or m5 or AMG for that matter. why does not they get relaxation on tax then. As BMW and merc do have manufacturing facility here. (they are generating jobs here)

[kbk_75]

Originally Posted by agentsmith2

Really ? Circa 1932 and it was illegal to make your own salt. Guess who broke the law back then ?

Yada yada - but your blanket definition of dishonesty/malpractice can't be applicable to all and sundry. Granted thought that doing it for a *car* is bordering on the unreasonable.

Having said that, I think the greater purpose of the import-duty law is to ensure foreign manufacturers set up their bases in India - and provide for jobs and share technical expertise with Indians/India. More demand for Land Cruisers should get Toyota to build LCs here, instead of fully importing/etc. In theory, atleast.

I really have nothing to say if you're comparing a nation's struggle for independence with a dishonest car dealer's shady deals.

Your point on duty being high to encourage local industry is valid.

[fx45]

I bet if Toyota starts building LC's here .. it wont cost more than 20 L here.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by agentsmith2

Really ? Circa 1932 and it was illegal to make your own salt. Guess who broke the law back then ?

Yada yada - but your blanket definition of dishonesty/malpractice can't be applicable to all and sundry. Granted thought that doing it for a *car* is bordering on the unreasonable.

Having said that, I think the greater purpose of the import-duty law is to ensure foreign manufacturers set up their bases in India - and provide for jobs and share technical expertise with Indians/India. More demand for Land Cruisers should get Toyota to build LCs here, instead of fully importing/etc. In theory, atleast.

May be OT, and this portion may attract some harsh criticism, but I cannot help agreeing with the general sense of this remark. Many legacies of Colonial rule still linger, and while the British had the justification of force and their position as the overlords, our government renegades on its democratic commitments and bully its citizenry using its monopoly of violence. How else can you explain 13.5% road taxes and aviation fuel priced lower than prices of petrol?

Anyway, these car dealers just cheat the Government to enrich themselves. They do not even pass their gains to their customers, and cheat them also. So any idealogical justification to such people's activities are, IMHO, a very tall order.

[navpreet318]

Lets say someone buys a car under an EPCG scheme.say a crv.an hotel owner in dehradun bought the older crv in 2005 for about 10 lakhs.

and i am sure of it because we know that person.this was the ex showroom cost of the car.

Now a crv manufactured in japan costs about 10 lakhs in indian currency.

go on the japan website of the mitsubishi lancer evo 10.the base model is for 12.5 lakhs.

Now can any body explain as to why a civic manufactured in india costs 12.5 lakhs.

or a honda city manufactured in india costs 9 lakhs.

Why this kind of profit making by these car manufacturers.

BMW 3 series when it was imported was for 30 lakhs.How do i know?An uncle here bought the 320i imported for 30 lakhs.

now that it has started manufacturing in chennai why hasn't the price brought down?
even if the parts are imported they only attract a duty on parts which is 30% or maybe something like that but definitely not 105% like new cars.

then why is it still priced at 30 lakhs.


I think people like Mr.C are a boon to indians.why shouldn't we be allowed to experience good quality fast cars abroad.

its easy to say its not right for a person who has loads of money to buy what one wishes but you have to see that 90% of indian population is not that.

there is a common man who pays income tax when he earns money.pays sales tax when he buys something.gives house tax for living at his own residence.

then he dreams of something like a fast bike or a car.What does he do.pay 105% extra on the price after paying up all those taxes.
or lets say he goes out to buy a made in india car.he still pays 12 lakhs for a 6-7 lakh rupee car.


Now lets come to the point of illegal things and illegal money.

Have any of you ever bought or sold any house or property?

Do you pay or ask for the circular rate?

What is that extra money you pay.what is it called.where does it come from and where does it go.

its called grey money or black money and you don't pay tax on it.
now its illegal.

so all you people saying that Mr.C should go to jail, YOU and everyone else should also go to jail.

I don't know who Mr.C is and niether do i know where his shop is nor have i got the moolah to buy an imported car.

But i am really hating this Hipocracy being shown here.you're all doing something illegal or the other and then preaching that Mr.C or whoever is doing illegal stuff and should be jailed.

very weird!

[agentsmith2]

Originally Posted by SirAlec

What do you think of the price of BMW m3 or m5 or AMG for that matter. why does not they get relaxation on tax then. As BMW and merc do have manufacturing facility here. (they are generating jobs here)

I can't say with authority but as I understand - the capex a manufacturers makes upfront is ammortized over a period of time and is a factor of the number of cars it can sell.

In plain english, it means that if the market is bigger [ie BMW can sell more cars], in theory it should be able to bring the overall price down given that it faces competition at those price-points.

At-least that's how it works in China etc where the BMW/VW compete with local manufacturers on price and the market is large enough for multiple competitors to exist at similar price-points.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Now can any body explain as to why a civic manufactured in india costs 12.5 lakhs.

or a honda city manufactured in india costs 9 lakhs.

Why this kind of profit making by these car manufacturers.

Foosa Hault! Civic costs about the same in Malaysia. In Malaysian currency, that's about 120k RM - which is about 15 Lakhs INR. BMW 3i costs about 300k RM [45 Lakhs INR].

I can tell you with authority that the same car costs twice as much in Singapore. Similar story with other asian countries. The only two countries with signigicantly lower price points are Thailand and China in our neighbourood. Thai because they have lower tax overall - and China because of the numbers.

That our state governments are corrupt to the core, ineffecient to death and can't utilize tax payer money is another story. But the governments of other countries DO tax car buyers as they do in India. Lowering the taxes will not solve the problem alone. I'll be happy to pay 40L for a beemer if I can ride it on good roads without all the dust, mud, cows and crap.

Info courtesy a close colleague who shifted to Malaysia recently, Link: Updated price list for BMW in Malaysia

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by agentsmith2

That our state governments are corrupt to the core, ineffecient to death and can't utilize tax payer money is another story. But the governments of other countries DO tax car buyers as they do in India. Lowering the taxes will not solve the problem alone. I'll be happy to pay 40L for a beemer if I can ride it on good roads without all the dust, mud, cows and crap.

Well said. Tax rate is not the core issue. The value that a taxpayer gets back from the state is the problem. And that's exactly why our government is a ripoff. Always over- promising and non- delivering.

Again, I feel very much amused that a clear case of unscrupulous tax evasion and unbridled profiteering evokes such a polarized debate for and against. Did not know that dust, cows, mud and "crap" makes one hate the government this much.

[navpreet318]

Yes even i'd be happy for that.

Look at US they have more taxes on income than india but they provide with better amenities.

we need better amenities.in the condition the country is right now we shouldn't be taxed at all.

poorer countries are doing better than us.

[SirAlec]

Originally Posted by agentsmith2

I can't say with authority but as I understand - the capex a manufacturers makes upfront is ammortized over a period of time and is a factor of the number of cars it can sell.

In plain english, it means that if the market is bigger [ie BMW can sell more cars], in theory it should be able to bring the overall price down given that it faces competition at those price-points.

At-least that's how it works in China etc where the BMW/VW compete with local manufacturers on price and the market is large enough for multiple competitors to exist at similar price-points.

M3 costs in expensive UK at about 50k pound. In india the price is outrageous.
If that price is reduced to what they sell in US and UK many enthusiasts will me more than willing to buy. Same goes with EVO. how eagerly we are waiting for it.
Point is that they are selling their age old model at the price of EVO here, so who will buy EVO. lolz . I guess this is the reason.

[kbk_75]

Originally Posted by navpreet318

I think people like Mr.C are a boon to indians.why shouldn't we be allowed to experience good quality fast cars abroad.

Great, so somehow a guy who cheats and misrepresents facts is a good guy.

its easy to say its not right for a person who has loads of money to buy what one wishes but you have to see that 90% of indian population is not that.

What is right or wrong does not change whether you make 5,000 rupees a month or 5 lakhs a month.

there is a common man who pays income tax when he earns money.pays sales tax when he buys something.gives house tax for living at his own residence.

The vast majority of Indians do NOT pay income tax. This is the whole problem that you somehow are neglecting. Dishonesty is rife in our systems and that is why very little progress is made and why people who are honest bear the brunt of a basically dishonest system.

then he dreams of something like a fast bike or a car.What does he do.pay 105% extra on the price after paying up all those taxes.
or lets say he goes out to buy a made in india car.he still pays 12 lakhs for a 6-7 lakh rupee car.

Nothing wrong with dreaming big. That's what creates ambition and hopefully makes you give your best, not resort to being dishonest to get around the rules. Things cost what they cost because of the way our political system works (or rather does NOT work), it still doesn't mean that we should be praising someone's illegal activities. The whole problem is that people have become accepting of dishonesty because it happens everywhere we look.


Now lets come to the point of illegal things and illegal money.

Have any of you ever bought or sold any house or property?

Do you pay or ask for the circular rate?

What is that extra money you pay.what is it called.where does it come from and where does it go.

its called grey money or black money and you don't pay tax on it.
now its illegal.

so all you people saying that Mr.C should go to jail, YOU and everyone else should also go to jail.

I recently had to pass-up on buying a really nice apartment because the builder wanted an obscene amount of cash. I could afford the price, I would have bought it if he took the enire amount by cheque, but I had to let it go because he insisted on a large cash component. I lost out in this case, just as you are saying people lose out on buying nice cars or bikes. It happens, get used to the idea, it still does not make me compromise on what my ethics are. Some things cost a lot more here than they do abroad, I don't like it any more than you do, but I disagree with people saying that it's ok to take the easy way out because nothing good comes easy and it's that attitude that prevents true progress from taking place.

I don't know who Mr.C is and niether do i know where his shop is nor have i got the moolah to buy an imported car.

I don't know the guy either. Frankly I couldn't care less what happens to him. What I find incredible is that educated people will distort their perception to somehow make it alright to do what is basically dishonest. Then they wonder why no progress takes place. If everyone only cared about themselves and their own well being there would be absolutely NO PROGRESS at all.

But i am really hating this Hipocracy being shown here.you're all doing something illegal or the other and then preaching that Mr.C or whoever is doing illegal stuff and should be jailed.

You don't know who is or isn't doing something illegal, so refrain from making guesses that point fingers at people.

very weird!

I wish just like every other petrol head on these forums that we had good roads and decent prices for fuel, cars and bikes, even insurance. I feel irked every time I gas up as well.

All I am saying is that I wish people would NOT tolerate dishonesty, rather than endorse it. That way there would be a chance for real progress to be made. This country lacks for nothing but the WILL for things to be better. Every problem we face today can ultimately be said to exist because of apathy and a dishonest system. This is why I am saying what I say.

You could say that I'm being idealistic, and to some extent, I am, but I don't see another way for things to really improve.

[madhokritesh]

The BMW 116i looks real nice, any idea if and when it is gonna make it here?

[godog]

Originally Posted by SirAlec

M3 costs in expensive UK at about 50k pound. In india the price is outrageous.
If that price is reduced to what they sell in US and UK many enthusiasts will me more than willing to buy. Same goes with EVO. how eagerly we are waiting for it.
Point is that they are selling their age old model at the price of EVO here, so who will buy EVO. lolz . I guess this is the reason.

Brit pounds: 50,000 ~ Rs.42Lac. So whats the price of an M3 in India, again? And how much do Apples in London cost? (Washington seb=100/kg here). Do let me know.

Originally Posted by navpreet318

Yes even i'd be happy for that.

Look at US they have more taxes on income than india but they provide with better amenities.

we need better amenities.in the condition the country is right now we shouldn't be taxed at all.

poorer countries are doing better than us.

Sahi Bol!!

Originally Posted by Yeldo

Well said. Tax rate is not the core issue. The value that a taxpayer gets back from the state is the problem. And that's exactly why our government is a ripoff. Always over- promising and non- delivering.

Again, I feel very much amused that a clear case of unscrupulous tax evasion and unbridled profiteering evokes such a polarized debate for and against. Did not know that dust, cows, mud and "crap" makes one hate the government this much.

Kya kehta? Lets float our own political Party then.... say? Could be fun!

[GTO]

Choksi's name has come up again, he may be in the dock this time for Mahesh Manjrekar's Landcruiser.

Manjrekar had purchased the car from Haren Choksey, a dealer for Skoda cars who imported the Land Cruiser for him. He sold it back to the dealer after using it for 10 months, who in turn sold it to a third party.

Choksey had been arrested earlier by the department of revenue intelligence and economic offences wing for evading import duty on purchase of foreign cars. Other film personalities like Sushmita Sen and Saif Ali Khan had also purchased cars from Choksey for Rs37 lakh.

For the record, Haren Choksey is the owner of Auto Bahn, an authorised Skoda dealer.

Link to DNA News Article