[NetfreakBombay]

Originally Posted by GTO

I know that Maruti screens extensively through Team-BHP and, hopefully, adopts the constructive feedback. You know what I think is wrong with Maruti / Suzuki? Its that they are taking a step backward in quality.

That alone is reason enough to raise these issues. If Maruti notices that current customers advised a prospective customer against buying SX4 /Swift, they ought to take notice.

Originally Posted by amit

Forget about the BMW. My Palio S10 rides AND handles better then the SX4 - at slow AND fast speeds. Not saying that the SX4 doesn't handle well. Point is that a Rs.5.xx Lac car outdoes a Rs.8.xx lac car in both these aspects. Yes, the Palio 1.6 ride quality is much more firm then the SX4 but it's just the finesse with which the Palio handles bad roads that's amazing to me even after 5 years of owning the car.

the palio has great ride comfort and brilliant handling. agreed. but the A.S.S sucks.....err.... A**!(big time) maruti makes up for rattly cars in all other departments.
you may have noticed, none of the maruti owners or fans are rabidly defending the cars. all they are saying is that, the issues are being blown out of proportion.
its only a door rattle. I have quoted watashi75's post below as my reply would be similar

Originally Posted by watashi75

I am happy that out of build, performance and safety Maruti has decided to compromise on build and not something else.

Originally Posted by amit

Putting it down in simple terms, the Palio is like a woman thats confident in her beauty, grace, attitude and sexiness. The SX4 is like a giggly teenager that believes the best way to impress a guy is by giggling and talking loud to attract male attention.

@amit- I'll have the teenager thank you! you can keep the aunty!

Originally Posted by srishiva

Its being a little too harsh on the Marutis. Parts falling off ? I don't think its going to happen. The cars are reliable.
Other than the door panels (both inner plastic and outer steel), I don't find anything much wrong in the swift. Its lively and the mechanicals are good.
Its a pretty stiff car and would not be that good in ride quality.

I agree- what else is wrong with the car?
dont tell me parts fall off- because, that is what is called a souped up statement! parts dont fall off marutis. not more than any other brand.

Originally Posted by iTNerd

So, inspite of the shortcomings, maruti cars are pretty ahead in terms of sheer value for money, reliability, safety and after sales and these are very important issues that most new buyers look into when deciding on within 6-7 lacs bracket. The occasional rattling, better interiors etc, are something, that can be tolerated.

not just new buyers, any buyer will look for the same things. and maruti wins easily. thats why they sell so many cars.
I can tolerate a few rattles, or should I say....I HAVE to tolerate the rattles because the other manufactures do not provide me with a better overall package.

I have no particular brand loyalty, whoever gives me the best overall package gets my money.
and the way things are going- I'm going to buy hyundais more often. they are the ones that come closest, and they are improving. while maruti stagnates/nosedives.

this thread has a lot of constructive criticism in it. hope maruti responds with some useful action.

PS- try criticising a FIAT product like this and see what happens!

[vasudeva]

From my own 8 years of experience of MUL's cars (1995-2003) I can confirm that:
1. they rattle and hum after 10K on the road.
2. parts break down as often as other cars in the segment.
3. FE is supposed to be better than Koreans but worse than the real Japanese. Suzuki is ersatz Japanese.

To see how far behind Suzuki is, one needs to compare with other Japanese cars in the same segment. If we do that comparison, Suzuki trails a lot in FE, body noise, quality, service. It is far ahead in the number of service stations and rattles. Wise of Suzuki to have an ubiquitous network. Owners need it.

Compare Suzuki in markets where there is choice and see where it ends. For example, recently Suzuki US chief Rick Suzuki made a surprise announcement that he would step down because of faltering sales. He had wrote a memo in 2003 that the company has a five-year plan to reach sales of 200,000 automobiles and 300,000 motorcycles and ATVs. The five-year plan ended in 2007, far below its goals, with sales of only 100,000 automobiles and 190,000 motorcycles/ATVs. The mid-sized XL7 SUV, `our flagship model in automobiles', was expecting annual sales of 50,000 vehicles but ended with 22,566 vehicles in 2007, of which 4,503 were fleet sales, and thus far below the original plan. Recently, both Suzuki and Chrysler have announced free/discounted petrol in the US to revive flagging sales.

[suman]

Originally Posted by rippergeo

you may have noticed, none of the maruti owners or fans are rabidly defending the cars. all they are saying is that, the issues are being blown out of proportion.

Some of them are Doc, to a point of obssession. There are people who are saying that they have two or three decades long association with the Maruti brand & they are claiming that they haven't had one rattle in any of their cars during that time span - a little exaggerated wouldn't you say?

[srishiva]

@vasudeva,

You quote quality and other issues for suzuki in the U.S. But suzuki is not bad in its home, Japan.
It just means that Suzuki is good at small cars. That is what we get in India and we need to discuss them.
They lag other Japanese car makers. yes, who's disputing that ? And how many cars do these car makers have in the segments that Suzuki has a car in India ?

[shebin]

Thanks GTO for starting this thread.This thread really help in objective analysis of the quality issue maruthi is facing as of now.Only these kind of discussions will make the car mfrs sit up and look.I am sure GTO is not bashing maruthi but pointing out a few realities.This helps all of us.

I have swift VDI which has done around 8000 km.The car is refined but build quality is something that needs to be frowned upon.On good roads the car is very silent,but on bad patches the orchestra will start.Rattles a lot if you close the door hard and all the parts feel very fragile.Now the new MJD i have bought,i really feel confident inside because it gives you safe and cocooned feeeling.

But the reality is that maruthi is selling hot and this basically related to indian cosumer psychology.Maruthi knows it well.Majority of the buyers look for FE and looks of the car.Maruthi has managed both.After sales/resale is also strong point of swift.So maruthi is giving what the buyer wants and buyers are happy wih this package.Its not that they dont know the quality is inferior.

I really dont like DZIRE,but swift is a hot hatch provided maruthi makes the bulid quality improve by atleast 40%.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by suman

Some of them are Doc, to a point of obssession. There are people who are saying that they have two or three decades long association with the Maruti brand & they are claiming that they haven't had one rattle in any of their cars during that time span - a little exaggerated wouldn't you say?

I dont know which post gave you that feeling, i always said Maruti had its own share of issues. First Omni (jap engine blah blah) that we owned rattled, actually rear shockies were a pain, until i found a resolution for it with the local garage wallah. Those days taking a Omni to local garage earned respect of taking an imported gaadi lol which helped to an extent in resolution. So it was always there baba.

Also could you please show me an indian car without a single rattle, suspension thud, creak after 5k kms on our roads?

Am not supporting Maruti for their carelessness ok call it cost cutting/efficiency whatever. But i dont accept that maruti if full of niggles either. Read the points marked in first post, i would be shocked and run away, ie if am a common joe. And i still feel is lil exaggerated, i understand its just GTO being "not beating around the bush" person that he is

For every manufacturer in India there are pros and cons, and we as consumer choose the one which will suite our bill (not talking about Rs alone).

Honda's, Fiats and Tata's of India have their set of issues, but dont think we are that unbiased here to take criticism about them (this is very personal opinion, on majority population here) ?

I will not dispute Honda for silky smooth engine, palio for heavy european feel.
BUT i wont say Honda city is best car at 8 lakh, they have absolutely no regard for safety since they know it would sell even without abs etc etc, they rattle, put to the test of time and panels will dent at small impact. A S S are notorious, if you are not well educated with ways of Honda.

Fiat's the interiors are, well i dont talk about it at all, service one of the biggest nightmares and parts even bigger hassle esp in B class cities, except for 1.6, tyres are puny. Are they reliable well, service costs start shooting up if you are a heavy user, compared to other manufacturers. Mileage a concern if you are fast driver. Clutch bearing failure, atleast 2 reported in last 2 weeks and that too under 25k kms?? Ok no need to react fiat fans, just quoting to build my case here lol

I can go on and on, and very honestly if i put time can give good + and - for each of the models. Sadly time is something i dont have right now.

So please continue the debate.

I have problems with maruti for not giving seriousness to rattle issue, using thinner gauge sheets for panels, thats it. But am still happy with the overall quality and build, coz build for me doesnt mean few rattles alone, yes it irritates me and just reminded me that i also have not been taking care of my car properly in the last few months and i need to get back at it. ie once i figure out some free time

[suman]

Jaggu, looks like you thought my post was directed at you! It wasn't - just turn back a few pages & you'll realize what I was referring to mate.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by srishiva

You quote quality and other issues for suzuki in the U.S. But suzuki is not bad in its home, Japan.

Agreed. Suzuki has been a success in Japan with the rider that it is the leader in `mini' cars (you should know which). Here are Japanese car sales and market shares for last four years (April-March)

Originally Posted by suman

Some of them are Doc, to a point of obssession. There are people who are saying that they have two or three decades long association with the Maruti brand & they are claiming that they haven't had one rattle in any of their cars during that time span - a little exaggerated wouldn't you say?

Definitely exaggerated.
there are always going to be people who defend their cars beyond all reason.
it has not happened on this thread.maybe on others.
I'm actually one of the people who have been assoc with maruti for the last 17 yrs, and I'm only 29.
except the 1st maruti we had- all of them rattled. even i could make that out as a teenager. we purchased 1 M800 every year and sold it the next we did that for close to 12yrs. on some years, purchased 2 at a time, drove them for a lakh kms, by which time, every part in the poor thing would rattle. we would be forced to sell them because the cars would be undriveable due to rattles. mind you, we still got brilliant, absolutely brilliant resale value each time.

all these marutis(18 cars in total)- and only one of them broke down due to a snapped clutch cable.

They all rattled! but they never broke down/ or stranded us.

[jaibir]

Here is my take on this. Maruti seems to be consciously playing the value game in the higher segments. Their approach seems to be to provide substantially more features than the competition at comparable/lower prices. This can be seen with the Swift Petrol as well as the SX4. However, they seem to have taken their eye off the ball where quality is concerned in the process.

On the Swift Petrol, the overall package was sufficient to pretty much bury the relatively weak competition provided by the Getz 1.3 and the U-VA, both of which although competent products with superior build quality have failed to sell. A major reason for this seems to be that the quality gap seems out of proportion with the price gap to a large proportion of buyers.

However, this wasnt enough in the higher segment in which the SX4 operates. There the lack of refinement and passenger comfort offset the higher feature set. Alongside that, the SX4's FE figures are quite poor compared to its closest competitior - the NHC.

The Swift D is a separate matter - the lack of equally refined diesel options in the hatch category is so high that it sells despite being overpriced. The Getz CRDI seems to be even more overpriced whilst Fiat is a late entrant which has legacy credibility issues. The Tata cars dont make the same cut on engine refinement.

To me it seems that Maruti needs to up the ante on quality quite a bit if it wants to move beyond a hatch and entry level sedan manufacturer. Its definition of VFM seems to be based on making the feature list as long as possible while throwing the overall build quality out of the window. This will likely cause MSIL's brand in India to erode as consumers mature and become more picky in what drives the car buying decision.

p.s. I bought a Swift ZXI in Nov 2005. At that point it was about the only car sub 6 lakhs that had ABS/Airbags - something my job required. I bought a Swift LDI earlier this year for the reason highlighted above - amongst the diesel hatches, its the best option. I love my car despite it being an MSIL product, not because of it.

[suman]

Originally Posted by rippergeo

Definitely exaggerated.
there are always going to be people who defend their cars beyond all reason.
it has not happened on this thread.maybe on others.

On this very thread, lol

Originally Posted by rippergeo

They all rattled! but they never broke down/ or stranded us.

Good lord, that sounds ominously like something that one would hear about an Indica or a Safari.....last thing I'd have expected to hear about a Maruti

(PS: I've gone through 2 Maruti 800s & an Esteem but I'm keeping quiet here......)

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by suman

Jaggu, looks like you thought my post was directed at you! It wasn't - just turn back a few pages & you'll realize what I was referring to mate.

No baba, i dont take key board debate personal. I just clarified on some experiences with the manufacturer that i had and no its not good wrt to rattles.

About A S S.

There is one particular case when Maruti A S S went overboard, purchased a new zen in 1996. It had reverse gear issue, thud when i engage the gear. Reported it to Maruti and 2 days later Popular in TVM sends 2 guys home and wanted to replace my clutch blah blah blah. I said NO, coz i didnt like the idea of removing a brand new gearbox and clutch. Funny the issue went off in another 5k kms.

Same issue my brother faced in Honda City Type 2, reported to Honda and their reply was, yes we can fix it but you will have to take care of the parts cost since clutch was not covered. We just walked off, and the issue was present till last day that we owned the car.

So which manufacturer will i prefer?

This is again one aspect of Tata i like, they accept that they have an issue and are ever willing to fix it. Unlike Honda who have a feeling they dont need to bother since they are a premium brand in India. No wonder CSI suffer.

[suman]

Originally Posted by Jaggu

This is again one aspect of Tata i like, they accept that they have an issue and are ever willing to fix it.

I agree with you 100% on that. Haven't owned a Honda so can't comment on that bit. I know that Ford do acknowledge and resolve a problem if it surfaces but their process is not as simple as TATA's, it takes a while longer.

[viper_711]

Can't comment on the safari but on the Indica I can! I am on my 3rd indica - 1st is a 2003 V2, the second a 2004 V2 with the pseudo wheel arches and new instrument cluster and the third a 2006 TDI. All three are still a part of the family. None of my cars have had funny squeaks or rattles. In fact the oldest of the cars seems the most solidly built even today. The TDI has power windows and when opened about half - it used to rattle over bad roads. Surprisingly after the second service the noise has gone!
I've experienced two swifts amongst my friends - a VXi and a VDi (100% stock). I have often asked both of them about rattles as I have shortlisted the swift for my next purchase and have read about this problem on this forum and elsewhere. Both claim they have not faced any issues.
This may mean that quality is not an issue - rather quality control (or lack of)may be an issue with Maruti.

Good lord, that sounds ominously like something that one would hear about an Indica or a Safari.....last thing I'd have expected to hear about a Maruti