[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by suman

Some of them are Doc, to a point of obssession. There are people who are saying that they have two or three decades long association with the Maruti brand & they are claiming that they haven't had one rattle in any of their cars during that time span - a little exaggerated wouldn't you say?

Maybe you should have taken the time to read the post you are covertly referring here.

If you had done that, instead of taking sneaky pot-shots that really don't add any value to the discussion, you would have seen that I never mentioned anywhere that we did not have a single rattle in any of our cars.

GTO had mentioned about low-quality in >4.5lakh MUL cars which was why I mentioned about no rattles on my Baleno and Swift. Which is a fact that is verifiable on the forum itself. I bring my Baleno to almost all Chennai tbhp-meets and can have anyone verify it for rattles - yes, even a single rattle.

Same goes for the Swift, which I brought to the Kerala-tbhp meet and which I am ready to have verified for rattles. There are things about the Swift which I hate and which I mentioned, but rattles is not on the grouse list.

This is not exagerration, but the plain fact - and verifiable at that.

[spadival]

Originally Posted by suman

I know that Ford do acknowledge and resolve a problem if it surfaces but their process is not as simple as TATA's, it takes a while longer.

hmmmm.. If thats the case, this thread -> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ship-woes.html .. would never have been created!!

[suman]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Maybe you should have taken the time to read the post you are covertly referring here.

If you had done that, instead of taking sneaky pot-shots that really don't add any value to the discussion, you would have seen that I never mentioned anywhere that we did not have a single rattle in any of our cars.

Come on SB, don't get into a huff, I did read your post & I thought my reference was as direct as possible under the circumstances. Covert? I would think not.

Anyway, to come back to the discussions, I thought the whole point about using your two examples was to dispute the observations about rattles in a Maruti? Or are you saying that you accept the fact that they rattle?

I've owned Maruti vehicles (2 800 DXs & 1 Esteem) somewhere in my lifetime too. I think it was for an overall duration of about 4-5 years. Must say that I was nowhere near as fortunate as you. And neither were a lot of others (from what I'm reading).

But, I'm sure that somewhere out there, there are Marutis that don't rattle. Definitely one or two of them

Originally Posted by spadival

hmmmm.. If thats the case, this thread -> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...ship-woes.html .. would never have been created!!

That's debatable - you will see that they have kept replacing but what he's facing there is irritation at the number of times the same problem is re-surfacing. That's pretty rare - I'd say it was a lemon.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by suman

I thought my reference was as direct as possible under the circumstances. Covert? I would think not.

If it was direct, I would not think it would have created the confusion it did. If you wanted to be direct, you could have just quoted me. Anyway, this is kind of irrelevant.

Originally Posted by suman

Or are you saying that you accept the fact that they rattle?

I did mention in that same post that if so many Swift users are complaining about rattles, it must be a valid grouse with the car and that we might have been just plain lucky to have none.

Originally Posted by suman

I've owned Maruti vehicles somewhere in my lifetime too. Must say that I was nowhere near as fortunate as you. And neither were a lot of others (from what I'm reading).

If just having a rattle in the car is unfortunate, I am not sure what we should be calling those souls that buy brand new cars (even SUVs costing upto 10lakh) and have a standard list of failures (cars stalling all of a sudden, unable to engage gears, turbochargers failing etc etc), that are just brushed off as 'niggles'.

[suman]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

If just having a rattle in the car is unfortunate, I am not sure what we should be calling those souls that buy brand new cars (even SUVs costing upto 10lakh) and have a standard list of failures (cars stalling all of a sudden, unable to engage gears, turbochargers failing etc etc), that are just brushed off as 'niggles'.

That is a different subject (or thread) altogether. How does that affect the topic on hand which is specifically about Maruti QC (or present downward trend noticed in it)????

Also, I seem to have missed the turbocharger failure thread, can you direct me to it please? I doubt that someone would have brushed that off as a "niggle"

[supremeBaleno]

Agree that it is not relevant to this thread, because it is not about MUL cars, which are being discussed in this thread. But my point was that if we say MUL is going to the dogs because of their cars rattling, what should we make of cars that have much more serious issues, which even negates the main purpose of an automobile - going from point A to B ?

Which is not to say that a rattle is acceptable - it is an irritant for sure and if MUL looks at this thread and works on eliminating rattles in their cars, the purpose of this thread would have been served. But then, I am sure all the Swift owners having rattles would have complained enough for years and does not look like they have done much, since even new owners seem to be having this issue.

IIRC, it was about a Safari - I did read it when it came up, but did not bookmark it. Search and you will find.

[srijit]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

But my point was that if we say MUL is going to the dogs because of their cars rattling, .....

I think that the rattling effect is more pronounced at car of a higher segment than Maruti is good at. At the lower segments, people are just happy to have a car that runs. When the segment rises, people tend to pay more attention to what they are getting. That is why the Alto is not even mentioned here. I think that the Swift too can be given the benefit of doubt. But for cars like SX4, what is the excuse for the quality? Why does it rattle after 5K or 10K kms? I think that is what Maruti needs to adress. And if that "adressing" trickles down towards the Swift and Alto, more power to them

Originally Posted by srijit

I think that the rattling effect is more pronounced at car of a higher segment than Maruti is good at. At the lower segments, people are just happy to have a car that runs. When the segment rises, people tend to pay more attention to what they are getting. That is why the Alto is not even mentioned here. I think that the Swift too can be given the benefit of doubt. But for cars like SX4, what is the excuse for the quality? Why does it rattle after 5K or 10K kms? I think that is what Maruti needs to adress. And if that "adressing" trickles down towards the Swift and Alto, more power to them

never thought of it that way. good point. like you said, I'm happy to have a car that runs reliably and is faster than the average traffic. never did get used to the higher segment mentality of..."my car should be perfect"

maruti needs to address this particular issue. they cannot afford to mess around with costlier vehicles quality. not for long atleast.

we also need more SX4 owners to report their experiences.

[vnabhi]

Originally Posted by srijit

I think that the rattling effect is more pronounced at car of a higher segment than Maruti is good at. At the lower segments, people are just happy to have a car that runs. When the segment rises, people tend to pay more attention to what they are getting. That is why the Alto is not even mentioned here. I think that the Swift too can be given the benefit of doubt. But for cars like SX4, what is the excuse for the quality? Why does it rattle after 5K or 10K kms? I think that is what Maruti needs to adress. And if that "adressing" trickles down towards the Swift and Alto, more power to them

Well said, srijit. I agree with you in toto.

[vkochar]

Originally Posted by GTO

It is about accepting the good and the bad of each manufacturer. In fact, that is one of the beautiful parts of this community i.e. we can be frank & upfront in our opinions to benefit potential buyers. And we can get the point across to manufacturers. Do you know how much time car manufacturers spend on Team-BHP? If we don’t tell them where to improve, who will? Advertising-driven car magazines? Ill-informed car salesguys? WE are the best freely available feedback mechanism there is, for potential car owners and manufacturers alike. All they need is a computer and internet connection to really “connect” with actual car owners.

I know that Maruti screens extensively through Team-BHP and, hopefully, adopts the constructive feedback. You know what I think is wrong with Maruti / Suzuki? Its that they are taking a step backward in quality. I mean, come on….even Hyundai is making massive strides in quality. You can see it in their cars…..to the extent of the Sonata giving the Accord a run for its money in the States. See the sheer quality of the i10!! In developed markets worldwide, Hyundai is gaining respect. And more importantly, I can tell you, at a far greater pace than Suzuki is. Hyundai IS putting in the efforts. Sadly, the same cannot be said about Suzuki or Mitsubishi. Lets not be blind to the facts.

Well said GTO. I agree with you 100 %. No one could have said this in a better way.

I have to say that each one here will justify their purchase and always back their favourite car manufacturer.

I will be a bit partial to Hyundai because I have owned quite a few since their venture into the Indian market. But having said this I have also owned quite a few Maruti's.

Now Maruti is making lovely cars and pricing them really well, BUT the main issue being discussed here is something different. We are talking about Interior Quality and small knicks and knacks which is shameful for India's largest car manufacturer.

In fact I am in the midst of buying a new car and debating between the Getz CRDi & Swift Diesel. The only reason I have not been able to make a firm decision is because of the small problems and rattles with the Swift.

There are certain members here who will swear by their cars and will say that they have never had a single problem in the last 2 decades of them owning cars from Maruti. I beleive them and you will always find such examples. BUT there are also many people here who having owned new cars like SX4's for just a few weeks, have started complaining on the small problems.

I think threads like these should be started more often so that Indian manufacturers can have a look at the actual voice of the consumer. A Magazine can only print so many letters ( maybe 2 pages of complaints ), they are more busy in printing adverts and taking out profits.

A forum like this is much needed. In fact if I was a Car Manufacturer I would hire half a dozen people and give each of them a Broadband connection and a few Computers / Laptops and tell them that their job is to only Monitor such websites and certain threads like these. These people should be in direct touch with the concerned department.

In modern days like ours where there is cut throat competetion Car Manufacturers should be well aware of the fact that their TOP POSITIONS cannot be enjoyed forever and they will have to make constant improvements and reduce complaints in order to succeed.

[GTO]

aaggoswami, You are evidently easier to please than I am.

The price difference is simply too much to tolerate

I see NHC a weak package

You are entitled to your opinion, but (I might add) part of the minority. NHC sales prove that buyers feel the premium is well worth it and the sales number seem to prove it. But yes, I will agree that the NHC is a tad overpriced. No doubt on that. You know what that proves? The obvious....as you go higher up the food chain, price sensitivity is lesser and people are willing to pay a premium.

Going by your standards, Maruti Omni/800, Swift Dzire are not sold in Europe they why cry about the WAFER BOOT LID OF DZIRE.

Oh boy, from the Euro NCAP to the Omni / 800….I might remind you that the OHC isn't sold anymore. Lets compare the safety of the NHC versus the Omni. But you conveniently wouldn't go there, would you? Do you see the utter lack of logic in this comparison?

Its not price, its real brand, and that it why honda city's real competetion is SX4

Correct, thank you for repeating for I have already said. They are indeed *real competition* to each other. And the last 6 month sales show that NHC is more popular.

The point is that you have quoted Suzuki cars as not a reputed brand

I think you should go back and read my posts again. Obviously, and for good reason, M / Suzuki enjoy tremendous brand equity in India. Especially for the small cars.

Where they lack brand value is in most developed markets, and in the higher segments.

because of product quality, but I dont agree with that.

Yes the product quality is not great,

Ok, I think you need to decide first. Do you agree that product quality is great or not great? You statements are pretty self-contradictory.

Just a simple example:

Yes I had to replace my clutch after about 20,000 kms as it was starting to slip.

Why? My Esteem and Zen didn’t require a clutch overhaul before 75,000 kms. Heck, even my 800 had its clutch changed at over 50K. Why the heck do the new generation Marutis require a clutch overhaul at 20,000 kms only?

Do you see my point?

So if we can blame maruti, why not honda. The point here is that maruti is unnecessarily targeted.

Please search through the forums and find all the posts where Honda has been *targeted* (as you call it) by me too! I am sure you will end up very satisfied. You need to see through my previous posts / threads before putting up an accusation of *targeting* any particular manufacturer. I call a spade a spade.

Go to highway and you will come to know the difference after 85-90kmph.

Unfortunately for you, most buyers care about the cars behaviour at speeds of less than 100 kph, and not over, because that is where they spend 99% of their driving time.

I think you ought to go back and read comments from Swift / SX4 owners who are in agreement with me, albeit at varying levels. I would much appreciate you being objective in your discussions henceforth.

[iTNerd]

But for cars like SX4, what is the excuse for the quality? Why does it rattle after 5K or 10K kms?

maruti needs to address this particular issue. they cannot afford to mess around with costlier vehicles quality. not for long atleast.

we also need more SX4 owners to report their experiences.

I don't know about other owners, but I have not experienced any rattling so far on my car. I had it for a year, done 7100 kms.. Sorry, I did have one on the A-Pillar some months back, but that was due to the faulty parking sensor wiring which was loosely attached inside the panel plastic, and that in rough road, it touches the panel creating a rattling noise.. something like tick.. tick.. but I do admit, that the tyre noise is too much for comfort..

I also had the drive shaft changed recently to a modified one from MSIL, after which I noticed a considerable engine response and driveability at lower gears (1,2). The FE also got a sudden increase of 1.5-2 kmpl post drive shaft change. Yes, I am annoyed with the defective shaft/clutch vibration, but I am ready to console myself, knowing that it is a new launch, and being that, niggling issues are bound to come up.. remember the numerous issues with NHC Type 1, when it was introduced here...

[GTO]

Originally Posted by srishiva

And how many cars do these car makers have in the segments that Suzuki has a car in India ?

Absolutely agreed! MUL has the most relevant cars for India, including the Swift & SX4. They only need to up the quality bar on some of them.

The point is.....sooner rather than later, more manufacturers will enter the sub-4 lac segment. Tata has tasted success and their second innings (new Indica) is anxiously awaited. Chevy & Hyundai have already entered that segment, but with varying levels of success.

This is why MUL needs to raise the bar. Because the 3 - 6 lakh segment is going to have a LOT more players in the next 5 years.

Originally Posted by vasudeva

Agreed. Suzuki has been a success in Japan with the rider that it is the leader in `mini' cars (you should know which). Here are Japanese car sales and market shares for last four years (April-March)

Fantastic graph that drives the point home. Suzuki needs to improve its quality and sheer finesse in segments above! Thats exactly what this thread is about. Compare their market share in small cars vis a vis that in pricier segments.

Originally Posted by vkochar

In fact if I was a Car Manufacturer I would hire half a dozen people and give each of them a Broadband connection and a few Computers / Laptops and tell them that their job is to only Monitor such websites and certain threads like these. These people should be in direct touch with the concerned department.

What makes you think they don't already have staff screening the internet. And more relevant to us, Team-BHP? I remember a recent thread where a car owner (IIRC Chevy) posted a complaint about his dealer. In 2 hours, the dealer called him up (frantically) and offered a solution. He claimed that some higher-up had seen the complaint on a car website.

[aaggoswami]

My answers are in bold.

Originally Posted by GTO

aaggoswami, You are evidently easier to please than I am.





You are entitled to your opinion, but (I might add) part of the minority. NHC sales prove that buyers feel the premium is well worth it and the sales number seem to prove it. But yes, I will agree that the NHC is a tad overpriced. No doubt on that. You know what that proves? The obvious....as you go higher up the food chain, price sensitivity is lesser and people are willing to pay a premium.

Correct in this part.



Oh boy, from the Euro NCAP to the Omni / 800….I might remind you that the OHC isn't sold anymore. Lets compare the safety of the NHC versus the Omni. But you conveniently wouldn't go there, would you? Do you see the utter lack of logic in this comparison?
Logic is that Omni/800 costed 1/4 when OHC was in market. So Maruti Omni/800 and OHC were unsafe, and Baleno/Lancer were safer than OHC, still the price difference was high. My point is that even today Honda is not giving us the best despite charging premium. So pointing finger at Maruti is bad.




Correct, thank you for repeating for I have already said. They are indeed *real competition* to each other. And the last 6 month sales show that NHC is more popular.
Yes sales have dropped and the real advantage has gone to Verna ( Rs. 55000 discount avaliable ). Honda came with ABS and with their overpricing, are still cheating Indians.



I think you should go back and read my posts again. Obviously, and for good reason, M / Suzuki enjoy tremendous brand equity in India. Especially for the small cars.

Where they lack brand value is in most developed markets, and in the higher segments.
Yes, and I agree with this, but its not sufficient to pin point finger. They dont overprice and then add a feature and again raise price.





Ok, I think you need to decide first. Do you agree that product quality is great or not great? You statements are pretty self-contradictory.

My point was that, yes there are quality issues, but they are not present in sufficient quantity and quality to raise question.




Why? My Esteem and Zen didn’t require a clutch overhaul before 75,000 kms. Heck, even my 800 had its clutch changed at over 50K. Why the heck do the new generation Marutis require a clutch overhaul at 20,000 kms only?

Do you see my point?
May be traffic conditions.



Please search through the forums and find all the posts where Honda has been *targeted* (as you call it) by me too! I am sure you will end up very satisfied. You need to see through my previous posts / threads before putting up an accusation of *targeting* any particular manufacturer. I call a spade a spade.

OK Sabji agreed.



Unfortunately for you, most buyers care about the cars behaviour at speeds of less than 100 kph, and not over, because that is where they spend 99% of their driving time.

I think you ought to go back and read comments from Swift / SX4 owners who are in agreement with me, albeit at varying levels. I would much appreciate you being objective in your discussions henceforth.

Yes, again I have to agree that most of the people wont be considering more than 120-125kmph. When my dad was looking for a family car, I was bent upon Swift ( yes it seemed like a joke to my dad, but it is still hot and great fun at highway ), but dad never considered Baleno for its Under 12sec 0-100kmph capability. He wanted good cruiser and Baleno is that. We have driven fast only when necessary, otherwise for normal Vadodara-A'bad expressway, we are 105-110.

But does it mean that the problem can be ignored? That too a serious problem that should have been tested by Honda. The point is that this also cannot be taken lightly by owner and Honda( in the first place ).


What I am trying to prove is that the problems faced are not that serious to make us panic. I never said ( and probably never say that Maruti are best built ) Maruti is flawless, but no need to panic.
Again my other point is that the interior fit and finish and build quality is bad. They are not compromising on chassis front. So the OVERALL BUILD QUALITY IS NOT QUESTIONBLE.

[architect]

Originally Posted by GTO

What makes you think they don't already have staff screening the internet. And more relevant to us, Team-BHP? I remember a recent thread where a car owner (IIRC Chevy) posted a complaint about his dealer. In 2 hours, the dealer called him up (frantically) and offered a solution. He claimed that some higher-up had seen the complaint on a car website.

GTO, please correct me If I am wrong, but I don't think Fiat India staff regularly monitors this site. They would probably never find so many owners together else where!!