[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

So why do you want to compare a regular road-going car with that built for a rally and talk about reliability?

Because INRC conditions are more torturous than any road conditions that can be thrown at these cars. I consider that as the ultimate test. Dont fret, I come from a different school of thought. So you don't have to agree.

Did I mention Amby's anywhere? Also, if you didn't know the ambys were the first taxis. And the Indicab took its place because they were more reliable, hence cheaper to maintain as well.

What I meant was Amby's have served as taxis for decades now. You will still seeing them puttering around in most rural/small towns having run lakhs of kms. That doesn't mean they were very reliable. They ran because they were comfortable, easy to tinker, cheaper to own, any roadside mech could repair them, parts were available in plenty. Indicab's of today are what Amby's were decades ago. The preferred mode of transport, not necessarily the most reliable.

And no, I ain't anti Tata. Infact one my favourite rides to own right now is the Tata Xenon. Would swap it with my swift anyday, if I could afford to buy one. But then again, I love Korean diesel's as well. So I don't follow the herd.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

So why doesn't your uncle run M800 as taxis? Ask your uncle to be religious about oil and filter changes to the Indicas and he wouldn't have to replace them every 2-3 years. Also instruct his drivers not to ride the clutch.

because M800 is not as spacious & fuel efficient as an indica.

tour operators dont care about good A.S.S, you know.

what about my indica? we followed every oil/filter changes religiously, still it had an endless list of problems.



Quote from above post:

And no, I ain't anti Tata.

this is not fair. if anybody speaks against tata, they are anti-tata or they are biased. then should we call the others anti-maruti???

[greenhorn]

amby's served as taxis for decades because they were expensive to get hold of, took ages (Dad says about waiting periods which took years, and having to bribe the dealers), and labour was a lot cheaper then to keep the old cars running with a few engine replacements after the first one gave up.
Now its just cheaper to buy an indica and run it to the ground, scrap/sell it and buy it and get another one than bother about getting a new engine etc

the indica is by no means the perfect car. Its not than sliced bread, and it certainly won't cure cancer or world peace . What it does is offer the best value in the segment. Its engine might not run 3lakh km without an engine job, or give 25kmpl FE. What it does is offer, to people who can tolerate the tata brand and service and the indica image the best value.

Induvidually, it might not excel in any particular area, but then the car is greater than the sum of its parts

[sanagg1]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

the indica is by no means the perfect car. Its not than sliced bread, and it certainly won't cure cancer or world peace . What it does is offer the best value in the segment.

Individually, it might not excel in any particular area, but then the car is greater than the sum of its parts

Very well said !
It really sums up the essence of the whole discussion easily, rather than proving the mettle w.r.t rally circuits etc.

[discoverwild]

^ Agree to that. I am also guilty of this, but aren't we going off-topic discussing the Indica (the Indicab) and not the Vista.
v eht tlef dna nees evah ohw esohT

[discoverwild]

Can mods please figure out this one? I have had problems posting only on this particular topic since yesterday. Whatever I type goes backwards, like my previous post and I am unable to edit my post. What I was trying to say is - The Vista is a much improved car from the previous generation and those who have seen, felt and driven the Vista know it is true. So please, give the Vista its due and don't pull in the older generation Indica which happens to be a good car as well.

[vijaythacker]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

the indica is by no means the perfect car. Its not than sliced bread, and it certainly won't cure cancer or world peace . What it does is offer the best value in the segment. Its engine might not run 3lakh km without an engine job, or give 25kmpl FE. What it does is offer, to people who can tolerate the tata brand and service and the indica image the best value.

Induvidually, it might not excel in any particular area, but then the car is greater than the sum of its parts

absolutely greenhorn, this sums up perfectly for the whole debate.Very well said.
Also i would like to tell we are discussing about new indica vista and not old gen indica so please stick to vista realities rather then coming out with indica issues and *** and all.

[dr.faramroze]

Palio's rear suspension dosnt thud. Palio's build quality is very good. Indica shakes a bit over potholes. Swift's rear suspension is nightmarish. My inlaws have a Swift, I have a Corsa, the drive is so much different. Makes me feel as if I am travellling by a lower class mass transport. I have read a few topics about Swift's ride quality. The major plus of Swift is ***, handling, efficiency, finish and the acclaimed Maruti tag. To my knowledge, Indica vista is a highly refined block from Tatas. The Vista might change the drowning image of old Indica. There are many changes from small nuts to major components. Wonder, what made them name Indica. Let Fiat thrust its service alliance with Tatas and time will prove which is more reliable. Just see the ground clearance of the three. Swift toches often while driving out of parking lots. Palio is rugged piece of metal. A facia refinement and a slight increase in appeal will ensure Palio sales. Palio will lead if production continues.

[shantyrocks]

@mods : The verdict is out in this thread.The vista is undoubtedly the winner owing to its all round performance.please close this thread now.

[HIGHNOON]

I dont think the maruti cars are built better than Tata / fiat/ chevrolet. So in that respect i dont think they can take abuse better than the other 3. And in any case this is not about old INDICA or 800 / esteem.
Having said that you wont lose your shirt trying to keep a maruti car in good working condition than the other 3.
Fiat is nothing short of ridiculously expensive to maintain and the tata ones always have quality issues about spares used by the manufacturer. Hyundai & chevy original parts quality is excellent but procuring after market spares becomes a burden.
So in that manner Maruti is truely safe bet for anybody who want the value of money to be retained.
And i feel this is one of the reasons where other manufacturers cars are not properly mainatained post warranty when people cant afford the A.S.S.
But satisfactory vehicular ownership is also about having achieved a balance of good interior space , stronger build / safety, good seating , good ride quality , and good fuel effeciency and an affordable price. If resale AND if you are a stickler for not tolerating small nigles; the equation balance may change .
But for all practical purposes the the former 5 are more important to me than the later hence i would pass on the curent lineup from maruti.
Hyundai is very good on most fronts but loses out on price and earlier models were not fuel effecient as well.
GM s problems are more like hyundai's / ford's where the spares avaialbility is a concern.
Tatas have serious problem with quality because of cost cutting and low control but parts availability and cost is ok.
Fiats problems are same as Tatas and some worse and hence lose out to some pretty ordianry competition. The spare parts cost is phenomenal and beat even higher segments in that manner.
Maruti does everything right in the manufacturing , and spare/ service dept. hence they are at the top.
They continue to regress in the design dept. in my opinion but the quality seems to improve everytime.
Hyundai is flat out better in quality than the suzuki and even the designs are more mature and evolved well from the days of atos.
Look at it this way ,
if and and a big IFF , swift was as generous inside that it is outside , i would look no further and buy one even if i had 2 pay 30 k more for a low feature model than Vista . If spacious getz was not as costly / I20 crdi so exhorbitant then i would definitely consider a Hyundai over a tata. I am afraid to touch Palio MJD because of the obvious and Punto ctive 1.3 is still more costly than the swift base.
So where that leaves me --- Vista.
This has always been TATA USP. i believe this is why they compromise so on so many things but never on space , ride and fuel effeciency.
It would make so much sense for them to offer the Aqua QJD ( after really improving quality and not by cutting corners ) on the road at the same price as Swift DDIS LXI ,. rather than undercutting swift base model pricing by compromising on small things.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by DCEite

Don't ever say that, ET. 800, specially the pre-MPFI(carb) ones can take a LOT of abuse. And i am saying this from personal experience. Our 800 went on to 1lac kms, 10 yrs, been to various places in Rajasthan and Punjab, and guess what? We sold it to an independent dealer for 65k. Beat that!

Come on I expected a little more thought on this. Just because your car took you to places doesnt means its tough but its reliable. Abusing your car has a different meaning all together. I hope you get the drift.

Originally Posted by raj_5004

in 2-3 years, they run for around 1 lakh kms. agreed. but so what? there are much better examples of cars more than 1.5 lakh kms running happily without any issues.

A lakh in 2-3 years... dude you need a reality check... they do atleast a lakh kilometers in a single year to be even economically viable. 1 lakh kms in 2-3 years.... I can only say your uncle is under utilizing his fleet and is running in losses.
I wont elaborate but in Delhi, Indica cabs can be hired for around 5-6 Rs a km with A/C. 1 Lakh kms == 6 Lakhs rupees - (cost of fuel + driver + maintenance) == 6 Lakhs - 3 lakhs ( assuming 3 Rs in the per kilometer cost of fuel, driver and maintenance) == 3 lakhs.
Cost of new Indica 3.5 - 4 lakhs.
Where is the profit?

I havent even talked about the eventualities that the taxi trade presents.

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

The point I am trying to make is about the abuse a car can take (since someone here said not a single car from MUL can take that kind of abuse). Since you were the first one to mention the word "abuse" the Indica's can take. You don't seem to be getting the point, I wont waste my time arguing with you.

Well we are talking stock cars. Bringing in modified rally cars and then talking about abuse and reliability is incredibly ridiculous.

[mclaren1885]

Originally Posted by HIGHNOON

I dont think the maruti cars are built better than Tata / fiat/ chevrolet.

Not sure about the other Maruti cars (though I can vouch that the baleno is well built, might have cheap/boring plastics, but its well built. I have taken the car apart a million times and put it back together myself and it doesn't squeak/rattle one bit). But the swift is NOT "built" at all. Its put together by 3yr old kids given the way it falls apart.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Well we are talking stock cars. Bringing in modified rally cars and then talking about abuse and reliability is incredibly ridiculous.

I was mainly referring to the "engine" reliability. FYI, engines are more or less "stock" in the INRC. Main issue with Indicab's is engine issues. Why don't you talk to a reliable local garage around you and get back to us? Would ease the troubles for all of us to keep reiterating the same point over and over again. Ever seen the number of blown Indicab's in the ghat sections around Kar, TN, Kerala?

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

I was mainly referring to the "engine" reliability. FYI, engines are more or less "stock" in the INRC. Main issue with Indicab's is engine issues. Why don't you talk to a reliable local garage around you and get back to us? Would ease the troubles for all of us to keep reiterating the same point over and over again. Ever seen the number of blown Indicab's in the ghat sections around Kar, TN, Kerala?

I am taken aback. It doesnt take an einstein to understand that rally engine run on the best of fuels, engine oils and related engine aggregates. What Indi cabs run on is the cheapest engine oil which would outlast the drain interval by several thousand kilometers, normal pump diesel fuel and would never see authorized workshop even for the major engine works. How many rally cars would survive driven with a torn air filer and sub standard engine oil? Why do you even want to compare a petrol rally car and a diesel ill-treated workhorse of an engine?

I am not for a moment saying that the engine is more reliable than the esteem engine but that fact that little 1.4 diesel has never got its due. Its much more reliable than you think.

I have seen well cared for Indica's running absolutely fine at over 1.5 lakh clicks. Even on the forum, TSK's Indica ran for more than 88k's kilometers before even the clutch was changed.

[raj_5004]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

A lakh in 2-3 years... dude you need a reality check... they do atleast a lakh kilometers in a single year to be even economically viable. 1 lakh kms in 2-3 years.... I can only say your uncle is under utilizing his fleet and is running in losses.
I wont elaborate but in Delhi, Indica cabs can be hired for around 5-6 Rs a km with A/C. 1 Lakh kms == 6 Lakhs rupees - (cost of fuel + driver + maintenance) == 6 Lakhs - 3 lakhs ( assuming 3 Rs in the per kilometer cost of fuel, driver and maintenance) == 3 lakhs.
Cost of new Indica 3.5 - 4 lakhs.
Where is the profit?

are we talking about the economics here or the reliability??

by the way, you dont need to worry, my uncle is managing his business pretty efficiently.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by mclaren1885

Ever seen the number of blown Indicab's in the ghat sections around Kar, TN, Kerala?

I recently did Coimbatore - Pondicherry - Chennai - Krishnagiri - Bangalore - Chamrajnagar - Sathyamangalam - Coimbatore and did not get to see one.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I have seen well cared for Indica's running absolutely fine at over 1.5 lakh clicks. Even on the forum, TSK's Indica ran for more than 88k's kilometers before even the clutch was changed.

Mine has done 122K now and is running fine. Clutch change at 107000 kms. No changes to shock absorbers, just bushes replaced once.