[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by nipcarlover

Petrol price cut by 3.05/litre, diesel up by 0.5/l.

Now they are talking + VAT. So in Kanpur (BS-IV) it is 79.00 after a 3.94 drop.

Originally Posted by DRIV3R

For a change, diesel powered vehicle owners can crib now. :P

Why, they are getting off lightly and are being subsidised by Rs.10+ per litre. Where is Mr Moily's Rs.5 (or even 3) hike!

[drmohitg]

Its funny to see a lot of posts on this thread also subscribing to the media portrayal of "poor middle class petrol car owners" of the country and the "Villainous rich businessman running on subsidized diesel". If you can afford a car then you can very well afford to pay for the fuel too, Rs. 5 here and there difference not withstanding. The cheapest car to buy in our market is still around 3L OTR or even more? ( discounting the Nano which anyways doesn't sell much).

[gsurya]

Originally Posted by CARDEEP

However, an important observation I made regarding domestic natural gas connection in NCR is approximately Rs.45 per kg, which means a domestic gas cylinder should cost under Rs.650. However, we are charged approximately Rs.850 for the cylinder supplied to our homes . Any reasons of the differential?

Bottling, distribution of LPG gas cylinders is costlier than distribution via gas lines direct to homes.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Its funny to see a lot of posts on this thread also subscribing to the media portrayal of "poor middle class petrol car owners" of the country and the "Villainous rich businessman running on subsidized diesel". If you can afford a car then you can very well afford to pay for the fuel too, Rs. 5 here and there difference not withstanding. The cheapest car to buy in our market is still around 3L OTR or even more? ( discounting the Nano which anyways doesn't sell much).

Considering your logic and quoted examples, if the "poor petrol bike" owner can pay afford to pay 5rs. more, then the "villainous rich diesel SUV" owner can surely afford to pay 10 rs. more.

Why expect one section to buy at market price and defend subsidies for the other, especially when they can very well afford to live without it.

[gsurya]

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

Even if take vegetables as an example: There is still plenty of veggies getting rotten and thrown but the prices are going through the roof. And the poor farmer is yet to benefit from all this.

And now thanks to Food security bill, More grains will be rotting in the Govt warehouses, Feast for the rodents.

US 'wastes' about 40% of the food it grows including those by the end users, in India its estimated to be about 30%. This is a global phenomenon & absolutely nobody has solved it completely due to sheer costs involved in it.

So lets not scapegoat the Food Security Bill for everything under the sun.

Our farmers are earning 3 times they were in 2004, thats also the main reason for the vegetable/grain prices going up. And this is also why we have record production of foodgrains this year.

The better their earnings, the more secure farmers will be & more land will be cultivated & more productively too. NREGA is also helping rural families feel more secure with supporting income.

Urban Indians are impatient & crib.. but we dont see & acknowledge the huge improvements in rural life in this last decade.

[deetjohn]

Filled petrol today morning. I got a little more than 10 L for 750 bucks. The gap between the two fuels is now approx. 20 rupees.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by gsurya

Our farmers are earning 3 times they were in 2004, thats also the main reason for the vegetable/grain prices going up. And this is also why we have record production of foodgrains this year.

It would be interesting to see how many times the middleman's income has gone up by since 2004 (including all income from hoarding). This bottleneck in the supply chain needs to be corrected, but this is way off topic for this thread.
Maybe we should just have a separate thread for the Food Security bill

[CARDEEP]

Originally Posted by gsurya

Bottling, distribution of LPG gas cylinders is costlier than distribution via gas lines direct to homes.

No setting of high pressure lines to transport natural gas over distances would require more initial capital outlay, as well as regular expenditure. The only legitimate benefit in piped gas, I feel is, avoidance of loss of metal cylinder (16+ kgs). Obviously there are few benefits to the customer as well, viz-
1. Chances of pilferage (claimed as spoilage by Gas agency) is lesser;
2. My family members who have piped gas connections claims that it results in lesser consumption;
3. It is lot safer than gas cylinder, as there are 3 points around your house where you can regulate gas supply (one at gas stove, one at the point where it enters your home & one around the gas meter, if I recall correctly). In case of any leakage, it can be shut down at any of these points & you are safe.

What these Petroleum companies claim is a sham, because if cylinder system is costlier why are they supplying CNG to CNG stations via cylinders mounted at mini truck (Tata 407 & other small trucks) in NCR.

Basically these Navratanas are the ones which are uncompetitive to private players, because of their personnel expenditure, & fleece the consumers to show profits (pay dividend to government, every year) despite claiming losses on account of subsidies. These are not working on the very principles these were formed for.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

Considering your logic and quoted examples, if the "poor petrol bike" owner can pay afford to pay 5rs. more, then the "villainous rich diesel SUV" owner can surely afford to pay 10 rs. more.

Why expect one section to buy at market price and defend subsidies for the other, especially when they can very well afford to live without it.

Please read back my post and do not change what I say. Beats the purpose of quoting a post. I said poor car owners. Bikers I can sympathize with. Car owners I cannot. At the same time diesel cars are far more in hatchback segments as an absolute number. Many of them might be covering large distances of 50+ kms to commute daily. For them too any increase in diesel prices by 10Rs will hurt. More so when they paid a premium in terms of taxes and prices for these diesel car.
The premium cars are hardly enjoying any subsidy because more than 99% of them do not even run the amount of kms needed to break even the cost differences between there petrol counter parts. Its just the media's way of sensationalizing reporting where you show yourself as Anti rich and the sentiment finds a lot of followers. I would never accept that a car owner, petrol or diesel, can complain about price rise. You may not like paying more, but its not going to push you into financial bankruptcy.

Anyways this same line of discussion always follows any price hike or reduction. The bottomline is prices will increase with each passing year since the fuel we use is limited in stock. If you cannot cope with the rising prices then start finding alternate arrangements whether it is the public transport or the car pool method.

[saket77]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

I would never accept that a car owner, petrol or diesel, can complain about price rise. You may not like paying more, but its not going to push you into financial bankruptcy.
Anyways this same line of discussion always follows any price hike or reduction. The bottomline is prices will increase with each passing year since the fuel we use is limited in stock. If you cannot cope with the rising prices then start finding alternate arrangements whether it is the public transport or the car pool method.

Do you really think that the main reason for price hike in fuel is because of fuel being limited in stock?

The main cause of increase in fuel prices is not that they are depleting fast, but more due to our own economic woes. I had not factored that within a few days, when INR was trading around 54-55 per USD would go as high as 67. The insane multi-level taxation system on fuel adds to it.
And mind it, its not only fuel prices that we are paying higher than yesterday. Due to the cascading effect, everything in the market is expensive. And frankly speaking, my salary is not increasing at this rate. My EMIs are now higher, my building maintenance has become expensive, vegetables & food items have become expensive, electricity rates have been increased 3 fold and whichever medium I choose to commute has become expensive. What are the alternate arrangements that you suggest? Buses and public transport? I have spent some years in Delhi, which in the country has slightly better public transport system.
But there are 28 other states in the country and hundreds of cities which do not have efficient public transport system. I do not want to risk my life in that overcrowded auto or bus. Due to the state of current law & order, I would never let my wife take a public transport here.
I do not want to take this discussion to political levels, but the insane decisions of the Govt. have forced us in this situation that the common man is now reeling under the various effects of inflation. And I am not a Govt employee who has his salary adjusted for inflation in form of DA and other allowances.
We have all rights to complain as a car or a bike owner. I am not advocating that diesel price should be increased since it will add to further price rise, but this cross subsidization of diesel from petrol buyers must stop as it is grossly unethical. Further, the Govt. should review its taxation policy to bring the taxes down which will take care of the matter. Now don't anyone tell me that this will result in lower revenues for the Govt. Be it, there will be less money to be siphoned off by the Govt by making those scams. A useless minister can have a few vehicles less in his convoy.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Please read back my post and do not change what I say. Beats the purpose of quoting a post. I said poor car owners. Bikers I can sympathize with. Car owners I cannot. At the same time diesel cars are far more in hatchback segments as an absolute number. Many of them might be covering large distances of 50+ kms to commute daily. For them too any increase in diesel prices by 10Rs will hurt. More so when they paid a premium in terms of taxes and prices for these diesel car.

other guys were discussing bikes too, but ok, I change it back to what you said. poor petrol car owner according to your post. It doesnt change what I have to say.
If petrol buyers (bike or car) are able to afford a 5 rupee hike, diesel buyers should be able to afford a 10 rupee hike too.

Moreover, who says petrol cars dont cover commutes of 50+ kms? It is not really the prerogative of diesel cars only. And I hope you are aware that diesel cars have always been costlier due to associated production costs and not due to the price of the fuel itself. If any other manufacturers are charging a premium over and above the difference, they are taking advantage of the pricing situation. It is almost like saying that the same Amma idli canteen sells the same idli to one person at 2 bucks and to another at 1.50. Just an example to state the obvious.

The price hikes for petrol also hurt the petrol car owners. So just because it will hurt diesel car owners, it does not justify the subsidy. If they really want to, they can reduce taxes on all fuels and then let market dynamics decide the way ahead.

What I do not understand is your quote that diesel prices should not be increased because 10 Rs hike will hurt people. I would appreciate if you could explain that point further. This is applicable for all fuels and commodities and not specific to diesel. What special halo do diesel car owners come with that they feel the hurt more than anyone else, be it a petrol car owner or bike owner or anyone else on the street?

[ecosport]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

What I do not understand is your quote that diesel prices should not be increased because 10 Rs hike will hurt people. I would appreciate if you could explain that point further.

This claim is due to a myth propagated by diesel subsidy appropriators to further their agenda. Somebody in this forum had earlier busted that theory by using hard facts (read numbers). In real, transportation costs account to only a minuscule of a commodity's price. And within the transportation costs, there are other factors like truck price, maintenance costs, salaries etc, and fuel costs is just one of them. In effect the difference due to fuel price increase of Rs 5, would hardly affect the price of the transported commodities by 1-2%.

Everybody cried hoarse when diesel price was hiked by Rs 5, like hell is going to break loose. Nothing happened.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by saket77

The main cause of increase in fuel prices is not that they are depleting fast, but more due to our own economic woes. I had not factored that within a few days, when INR was trading around 54-55 per USD would go as high as 67. The insane multi-level taxation system on fuel adds to it.

We have all rights to complain as a car or a bike owner. I am not advocating that diesel price should be increased since it will add to further price rise, but this cross subsidization of diesel from petrol buyers must stop as it is grossly unethical.

Originally Posted by selfdrive

If petrol buyers (bike or car) are able to afford a 5 rupee hike, diesel buyers should be able to afford a 10 rupee hike too.

Moreover, who says petrol cars dont cover commutes of 50+ kms? It is not really the prerogative of diesel cars only. And I hope you are aware that diesel cars have always been costlier due to associated production costs and not due to the price of the fuel itself.

What you say is right. Any price increase hurts and the reason for price increase may be multiple, some under our control and some not. But what is appalling is to see this war or statements filled with anguish that Diesel car owners are having a field day. We are not focused on making the overall pricing correct. Or introducing changes in our public transport and roads to ensure lesser fuel wastage. But we all are ready to jump on fellow motorists that they are enjoying while we suffer. And what follows are those emotional portrayal of a poor car owner who is having difficulty to make ends meet due to increase petrol prices. And the diesel car owners are put into this group of "rich, powerful people" who are hellbent on crushing the aam aadmi!

[ecosport]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

But we all are ready to jump on fellow motorists that they are enjoying while we suffer. And what follows are those emotional portrayal of a poor car owner who is having difficulty to make ends meet due to increase petrol prices. And the diesel car owners are put into this group of "rich, powerful people" who are hellbent on crushing the aam aadmi!

It is all because of cross-subsidy. High petrol prices sustain the diesel subsidy. In fact, every time I fill a liter of petrol in my car, I am also paying about Rs 10* for somebody else's diesel. Shouldn't all those on bikes, Altos, Santros, i10s and Wagon Rs be worried about having to pay a part of the rich men's diesel bill?

* That's an approximation, substitute with any number greater than zero as you like.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by ecosport

It is all because of cross-subsidy. High petrol prices sustain the diesel subsidy. In fact, every time I fill a liter of petrol in my car, I am also paying about Rs 10* for somebody else's diesel. Shouldn't all those on bikes, Altos, Santros, i10s and Wagon Rs be worried about having to pay a part of the rich men's diesel bill?
.

This point has been much discussed in this Forum in multiple threads. And it has been explained many times that it is not really loss on sale of diesel. But under recovery. So I am not even going to get into all of that again.
That subsidized diesel you seem to be worrying about is also ensuring cheaper electricity and cell phone coverage etc. The same costlier petrol is also ensuring that you get your LPG at a cheaper rate. We can go on and on cross ranting on this but its not going to solve anything.