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Old 31st January 2021, 08:06   #6961
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

There's a mammoth amount of infrastructure development happening in India on a scale never before seen (involving expenditure very many times larger than the statue), and this will put us in a better shape in the years to come, from an economic PoV. Such as the dedicated freight corridors, Mumbai-Delhi Expwy, metro rail construction in several cities, etc. For instance, see:



For more links, see:
https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4499391 (The Official Fuel Prices Thread)

Last edited by Aditya : 1st February 2021 at 05:24. Reason: Quoted post and reply deleted
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Old 31st January 2021, 09:13   #6962
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by vharihar View Post

There's a mammoth amount of infrastructure development happening in India on a scale never before seen (involving expenditure very many times larger than the statue), and this will put us in a better shape in the years to come, from an economic PoV. Such as the dedicated freight corridors, Mumbai-Delhi Expwy, metro rail construction in several cities, etc.

Sorry to be butting in here but the mammoth amount of infrastructure development counts for nothing if that comes from squeezing the very people who you want to benefit from the development !!

Infrastructure development happened before also, its not something we are seeing this for the first time. But the day light robbery in the name of fuel has to stop somewhere.

My daily commutes or leisure might not have stopped since I can perhaps afford it but there are less fortunate I know, who have even stopped using their bikes !! Lockdown and the subsequent transport unavailability forced many to use personal mobility and that’s greatly hampered by rising fuel prices.

Heck, the public transport sector has been hit badly (at least in my city) and is directly hitting people who use them. Unscrupulous autos or taxis have been fleecing general public in the name of fuel prices when public transport is becoming untenable due to high fuel prices and freeze on fare revision.

It baffles me no end that we are paying through our nose to perhaps use some infrastructure in future when all we want is live our present decently enough to make a future life !!

Last edited by ABHI_1512 : 31st January 2021 at 09:15.
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Old 31st January 2021, 10:08   #6963
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Originally Posted by ABHI_1512 View Post

It baffles me no end that we are paying through our nose to perhaps use some infrastructure in future when all we want is live our present decently enough to make a future life !!
There is an argument for sacrificing a bit of our present for future. Almost all of us do that all the time. Any savings we do and invest them for future payoffs are from that perspective.

There can be little argument that India badly needs infrastructure. We neglected it for quite long time. If we don't do it things will break and we will be cribbing that things don't work in India.
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Old 31st January 2021, 11:26   #6964
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by PGA View Post
With economy chugging along nicely and stock markets chasing new highs in anticipation of explosive growth despite high fuel prices and no voices emanating from any direction, I wonder how many still feel that fuel prices will come down.
It should but not through a tax deduction. Considering the current fiscal deficit and the expenditure outlay, especially for defence and to the states, taxes will remain where they are.

On the other hand crude is pegged high currently, ideally it should we well under $50. A lot of hedge funds have parked money in commodities including oil. Plus there has been a lot of overreaction over the production cuts announced by Saudis. There should be correction shortly I think.

The big change will be when two major producers start pumping oil again. For the past two years Venezuela and Iranian oil were absent from the market. Moves are already being made to reverse Trumps stupidity at the behest of the Saudis. Countries and corporations are egging the new Biden govt. to start reversing this. Once this oil comes back (Iran has already started raising production, but Venezuela will take sometime) prices will fall.

Plus the shale industry is slowly adding more rigs and will pump more oil.

Oil is a heavily oversupplied commodity since 2015 because of the shale revolution. The only thing keeping prices from falling is the OPEC cartel cutting production. There is a lot of infighting in OPEC, because production cuts mean less market share and revenue. That's a discussion for another day.

A lot depends on how the current US govt handles Venezuela/Iran.
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Old 31st January 2021, 11:32   #6965
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by vharihar View Post

There's a mammoth amount of infrastructure development happening in India on a scale never before seen
The fuel taxes dont pay or rather should not be needed for 90% of the highways and infra structure being bhoot as they are built on a Build Operate Transfer Basis. In BOT, the operator or govt takes out a loan which will be repaid when toll collection starts. Don't understand, why fuel taxes should be used for it when we are already paying toll. Why should we pay twice ?

Also what use of the Delhi Mumbai expressway or taj expressway to me when none of the infrastructure projects or expressways is being built in the Southern 5 states ?
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Old 31st January 2021, 11:45   #6966
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by vharihar View Post

There's a mammoth amount of infrastructure development happening in India on a scale never before seen
Can you substantiate this with numbers?

How much is being spent on infrastructure now & how was spent earlier (taking into account a natural increase)?
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:09   #6967
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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
Can you substantiate this with numbers?

How much is being spent on infrastructure now & how was spent earlier (taking into account a natural increase)?
Actively under-construction projects (along with links where you'll find videos and pics of actual on-site progress; or if you want, go to YouTube and search on your own, you'll find several videos as latest as from a week ago):

1500 kms Mumbai Delhi Expwy: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...km-u-c.2080171

889 kms Char Dham Road Project: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...es-u-c.2096951

1622 kms 4 laning of Mumbai-Goa-Tiruvanantapuram-Kanyakumari NH66: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...2164686/unread

575 kms Delhi - Amritsar - Katra Expwy: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...proved.2252308

Dedicated Freight Corridor (DFC): https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...or-u-c.1390460

Rishikesh - Karanprayag Rail Link: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...l-link.1140405

Kashmir Rail Link: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...il-link.594526

Metro rail in several cities: Drill down on the each city-specific link at: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/forum...ortation.1251/ (Metro rail projects are joint center-state projects, in most acses with 20%-20% center-state contribution and the rest on loan; and the projects are all actively monitored by the central govt on its PRAGATI portal and mtgs)

Indian Railway Rly Stn Redevp: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...pdates.1798510 (eg. Gandhinagar Rly Stn, Baiyappanahalli Terminal in Blore, Habibganj Rly Stn, there are several more)

Rly track doubling and electrification of several stretches nationwide: https://www.skyscrapercity.com/threa...ussions.638652 (once such works cross a certain threshold, they help in speeding up trains drastically; eg. a 24 hr Mumbai - Chennai train journey could come down to 16 hrs)

All these works are happening with serious speed and intent, with serious machinery deployed, on a never-before-seen scale. There are several more, I can't list them all here, but you can go and navigate up/down/laterally the links I have stated above.

The Skyscrapercity site is not limited to India. Its a worldwide site with projects for every country, and is maintained by infra nerds. Its NOT a govt mouthpiece. These above threads are complete with pics and videos by generic infra nerds who have no passion but just the thrill of seeing something getting built in their country

I'd rather see our tax moneys spent in such a fruitful manner even if 20% of it is gone away in corruption, rather than see 100% of it gone away in corruption and status-quo being maintained with no works happening.

Our cities are a mess, I agree, but that can't be pinned on the central govt. Its due to rotten municipal corporations nationwide.

Most of the infra works I've listed are happening away from cities (barring the metro rail projects).

The problem is that most people *fly* when they go from one city to another; and thereby miss spotting the number of works in process. Nor do they care to read up on such stuff, it's likely orthogonal to their area of interest. It's only when you go by *road* and keep your eyes open, that you can see the amount of infra devp happening in the hinterlands of our country. Or you need to have the unbiased enthusiasm to search and read up about such things.

Besides these, there are several state-govt sponsored infra works happening, such as:
Active projects in Mumbai:
- MTHL
- Mumbai - Nagpur Expwy

Active projects in UP (UP is turning out to be the expwy capital of India):
- Purvanchal Expwy
- Bundelkhand Expwy
- Gorakhpur Link Expwy
- Jewar airport in Greater Noida

Last edited by vharihar : 31st January 2021 at 12:10.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:14   #6968
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
Actively under-construction projects
How is this answer relevant to my question? I am asking in terms of comparison. All your answers tells is what projects are in construction now. It doesn't compare those to how much was constructed earlier.

Do you have an exhaustive list of projects done earlier which you can compare with this & say that one is more than the other (ignoring natural progression)? If not, better would be to compare money spent on infra currently as compared to that spent in a similar time period in a previous comparative term & show that it's comprehensively more (again taking into account natural progression).

Last edited by carboy : 31st January 2021 at 12:18.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:22   #6969
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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
How is this answer relevant to my question? I am asking in terms of comparison. All your answers tells is what projects are in construction now. It doesn't compare those to how much was constructed earlier.

Do you have an exhaustive list of projects done earlier which you can compare with this & say that one is more than the other (ignoring natural progression)? If not, better would be to compare money spent on infra currently as compared to that spent in a similar time period in a previous comparative term & show that it's comprehensively more (again taking into account natural progression).
Go thru those links. Some of those links date back to 2005. You'll see the amount of works that happened then and the amount of works nowadays. You'll get an idea.

To put things in perspective: The 1st phase of Mumbai Metro (Line 1) of a very short 11 kms length or so took 7 years to complete. This despite the country having the expertise and experience of Delhi Metro.

More:
Alleppey bypass in Kerala started in 1980 and it took a Nitin Gadkari to complete it now in 2021 (see https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/stree...ml#post4989448 (NH66 / NH17 Mumbai Goa Kanyakumari 4-lane road project updates))

Ditto with the Kollam byepass in Kerala.

Ditto with the Atal Tunnel that opened up in 2020.

Sir, kindly don't expect me to spoonfeed you with data, I've given you the pointers. If you're genuinely interested, you're welcome to browse and judge for yourself.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:24   #6970
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

Grumping about higher fuel prices only to waste a bulk of it inching ahead in the great Indian traffic crawl, engines wearing out before reaching 1L on the odo. Clogged EGR from low rpm driving and/or painting the roads black by flooring the pedal, only to brake for the cow or the 2 wheeler.

About 2L cars and 10L bikes sold every month, adding to the existing traffic(= chaos) and with no proportional lane expansion happening, air quality levels and average speed numbers are not gonna improve.

Looking forward for the EV regime. At least we won't be wasting fuel when waiting for the VIP to pass.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:36   #6971
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

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Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
Go thru those links. Some of those links date back to 2005. You'll see the amount of works that happened then and the amount of works nowadays.
Is that list an exhaustive list of all infrastructure projects done from 2005 onwards? If not, it doesn't answer my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
To put things in perspective: The 1st phase of Mumbai Metro (Line 1) of a very short 11 kms length or so took 7 years to complete. This despite the country having the expertise and experience of Delhi Metro.
And it's been 6 years after Metro 1, but no 2nd Metro has been completed yet. So I am not quite sure what your point is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
Sir, kindly don't expect me to spoonfeed you with data,
If you make a claim, you need to substantiate it. I am not required to make an effort to prove it for you. Nor do I need to disprove it.

For e.g. if I want to say that Smith is a better batsman than Kohli, I can't just put up Smith's records & claim he is a better batsman. You need to compare both people's records to claim that.


The simplest way you can do this is to give the amount of money spent on infra in the last 6 years & compare it with the amount of money spent on Infra in the 6 years preceding that & show that it's substantially more (after accounting for inflation & natural progression).

Last edited by carboy : 31st January 2021 at 12:39.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:48   #6972
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Default Re: The Official Fuel Prices Thread

Too much mental gymnastics in this thread to find reason based justifications for tax policy.

The Reasons for taxes going up on fuel is because it is the only politically neutral way to raise revenue. The empirical evidence shows that nobody is raising this issue in politics or civil society.

Nor is there any slump in demand due to high cost of fuel. At least not enough to cause government to reduce taxes on fuel.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:51   #6973
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Originally Posted by carboy View Post
Is that list an exhaustive list of all infrastructure projects done from 2005 onwards? If not, it doesn't answer my question.
I have no desire to convince you. You're welcome to go and judge as you please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
And it's been 6 years after Metro 1, but no 2nd Metro has been completed yet. So I am not quite sure what your point is.
Looks like you're not familiar with Mumbai. A short 11 kms Line 1 took 7 years to complete. Thereafter 8-10 additional lines of a total length 200+ kms are in active construction all over Mumbai, for the past 6 years or so (all thanks to Devendra Phadnavis).

Quote:
Originally Posted by carboy View Post
The simplest way you can do this is to give the amount of money spent on infra in the last 6 years & compare it with the amount of money spent on Infra in the 6 years preceding that & show that it's substantially more (after accounting for inflation & natural progression).
I've done better, I've pointed you links with on-site videos and pics. I'm sure money spent is also a good FoM (figure of merit), but I dont have the data handy, nor do I find it worth my while to dig it up and spoonfeed you.

Besides, money spent could be a trillion dollars but if there's corruption and its all siphoned away with 0 progress on the ground, would you still deem it as fantastic progress just bcoz a trillion dollars were spent on it? Hence, money spent alone isnt a good FoM. A better way to judge is actual works on the ground.

Last edited by vharihar : 31st January 2021 at 13:01.
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Old 31st January 2021, 12:55   #6974
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Let me clarify:
As I've stated in the past, I'm not supportive of fuel tax increases. But if the present govt tells me that the fuel tax hike is temporarily needed (say for 1 year) to compensate for the shortfall in tax collection due to Covid in 2020 and in order to continue to keep infra expenditure high, then I'm inclined to believe it. This govt has earned my trust (by a huge margin, over any other govt), precisely due to the infra works that it has actually demonstrated and is demonstrating on the ground. So I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt.

The purpose of my past few posts was just to negate the claims made by some that "Oh, what infra works have happened in the present regime? Its nothing unusual, its the same as any other regime." I just wanted to negate that claim, giving solid proof in the process.

Last edited by vharihar : 31st January 2021 at 12:57.
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Old 31st January 2021, 13:17   #6975
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Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
I have no desire to convince you. You're welcome to go and judge as you please.
Yes, and my judgement is that infra hasn't really increased that much
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
Looks like you're not familiar with Mumbai.
But, I am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
A short 11 kms Line 1 took 7 years to complete. Thereafter 8-10 additional lines of a total length 200+ kms are in active construction all over Mumbai, for the past 6 years or so (all thanks to Devendra Phadnavis).
Yes, they are in construction. Till they finish, we cannot really say how much time they take to construct. So you cannot really judge if it's faster or slower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
I've done better, I've pointed you links with on-site videos and pics.
Not really. All you have done is give some clips of Smith batting & added a couple of clips of Kohli batting & you expect me to believe one is better than the other.
What would be the right way is to compare their averages & other stats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
I'm sure money spent is also a good FoM (figure of merit), but I dont have the data handy, nor do I find it worth my while to dig it up and spoonfeed you.
I said this before. If you make a claim, you need to substantiate, else it's dissmissable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
Besides, money spent could be a trillion dollars but if there's corruption and its all siphoned away with 0 progress on the ground,
That's true for both cases, innit? Unless you can show data that there was 0 progress on the ground in one case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
would you still deem it as fantastic progress just bcoz a trillion dollars were spent on it?
I am not say it's the only way, I am suggesting you a way better than your way which is mostly meaningless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
Hence, money spent alone isnt a good FoM. A better way to judge is actual works on the ground.
Yes, absolutely. That would work. Do you have an exhaustive list of work done on the ground in either case with a way to compare them?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
But if the present govt tells me that the fuel tax hike is temporarily needed (say for 1 year) to compensate for the shortfall in tax collection due to Covid in 2020 and in order to continue to keep infra expenditure high, then I'm inclined to believe it.
But this isn't temporary is it? In the first few years itself after 2014, fuel taxes were raised some 15-20 times. Even when oil costs were at their lowest point, fuel taxes were at their highest. This whole thread - look at the comments in it in the last 4-5 years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vharihar View Post
The purpose of my past few posts was just to negate the claims made by some that "Oh, what infra works have happened in the present regime? Its nothing unusual, its the same as any other regime." I just wanted to negate that claim, giving solid proof in the process.
Unfortunately, it's not been negated & nor have you given any solid proof.

Last edited by carboy : 31st January 2021 at 13:22.
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