[shadows123]

Originally Posted by Alive2Drive

Hi All,

A quick update !

The goverment plans to increase diesel prices post the monsoon session on 7 sept.

Another great move to burden people further.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/16243315.cms

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@shadows123; Where is ths subsidy on Diesel. You have also got taken in by the propaganda. The total taxation customs, excise, etc. still exceeds the 'so called subsidy'. o they are taking more than what they are giving back.

I hope but have grave doubts about the pricing being made more realistic. You are paying in any case be it through the price, inflation, taxation or rupee depreciation.

You cant really consider taxation,excise as taking back! IOC is still a publicly traded company despite being puppets at the hands of the govt and just because govt charges taxes on fuel doesn't mean IOC reaps its benefits! And moreover, We aren't rich in those attractive natural resources(read Oil) to let go of the taxes because we are importing more than exporting basically so the logic of giving more isnt really valid(just do a random split of the fuel price, State Govt bags the max amount followed by fuel price lol followed by central excise, vat etc) , So if at all any , you cant say there is no subsidy as far as IOC is concerned.

The problem i have is state govts(I am looking at you KA) charges this exhorbitant taxes and when there's a price rise, then they immediately put their hands up and claim its the fault of the centre..Well how about reducing taxes for a change?

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by shadows123

You cant really consider taxation,excise as taking back! IOC is still a publicly traded company despite being puppets at the hands of the govt and just because govt charges taxes on fuel doesn't mean IOC reaps its benefits!

as far as I am concerned as a Citizen of India, I do not differentiate. I look at what I pay, what is the ultimate share of taxation, be it centre or state or whatever and that is it.

One reason of this convoluted approach is that while they are able to show the excise etc as revenue, the 'subsidy' is not directly accounted for. No.2 is everywhere incl the accounts of our govt.

[kicksperliter]

Originally Posted by revv_maniac

Increase the LPG, Diesel price and decrease the Petrol prices moderately, so that all 3 of them are in tandem respectively.

First of all, NO offense to the comment I am jolting down here.

Increase LPG? Increase? Diesel? does anyone thing its exponential impacts on our daily life's? Does anyone think about, who all gets impacted? How literally YOU as a common man gets impacted?

NO. NOT AT ALL. We don't think to such extend.

Increasing in diesel: Diesel consumption in our lone country is 43%, LPG is ~23-24%, Kerosene is 1.7% and 26% is petrol consumption according to report provided by Oil corp sometime back, which was published in National Weekly.

Those are just the stats.

Increasing in Diesel: Diesel consumption is NOT ONLY Private cars, but Commercial Vehicles (such as Road Transport, Rail Transport, Commercial Goods Vehicle, Agricultural Vehicles, Power Generators, Defense Vehicles)

Increasing in diesel, will impact Road transportation - Impact on YOU? Hike in travel expenses, be it local or national, Hike is Railway tickets, hike in Auto fares, EVEN Middle or Lower INCOME GROUP is AFFECTED BADLY. Railways which is on the edge of Profit making company, will get huge loses. Primarily Rail transportation is used by Middle or lower income group, hence increase in hike in rail roads is COST ON COMMON man, who will reduce travel, impacting railroad business. Development becomes NIL.

Will impact Commercial Vehicles transportation, Where in proportionally increases steep hike on ur DAILY Commodities, Vegetables, Groceries think what not, even your baby's diapers, furniture's, fruits, increase all are impacted. A Water Tanker full of water would now cost around ~1000-2000, which will also be hikes to ~3000.

Your daily consumption of vegetables becomes a pain, and burns your pockets and savings considerably ON A DAILY Basis.

Impact on Agriculture, more farmers who rely on meager income from Agriculture would be wiped literally of their whatever mediocre bank balances they would have.

UPON on these getting Affected, we talk ABOUT INCREASING LPG? Then middle income and lower income group goes back to stone age for using Kerosene in their kitchens to survive.

Looking at the Stats, INCREASE in LPG or DIESEL, will not make petrol users happier, They are also the ONES who is affected.

Just imagine the repelling affect in increasing LPG and Diesel has on one's life?

I am not telling Diesel prices for PRIVATE Car users be the same. But, de-regulating the Diesel for Private and Commercial, Creates A NEW UNDERWORLD Diesel MAFIA, who smuggle commercial diesel and sell to Private vehicle users at little higher rate than the DE-REGULARIZED Diesel.

With NO increase in Salary for a common man, such hike's and impacts will affect entire Family.

JUST my Thought. Don't be Voting your voices for Increase in DIESEL, Increase in LPG, without keeping in my its rippling effects on Common man like us.

[sgiitk]

@kicksperliter; I thin you have fallen for sweet talk lock stock and barrel. I hope you agree that the price od crude is going up exacerbated by the rupee sinking.

So if you do not increase the price of goods then you increase the budget deficit, fuelling inflation, drop in your currency, and so on. So you are still paying but in another form. Pick up any book on Supply Side Economists and you will know.

[shadows123]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@kicksperliter; I thin you have fallen for sweet talk lock stock and barrel. I hope you agree that the price od crude is going up exacerbated by the rupee sinking.

So if you do not increase the price of goods then you increase the budget deficit, fuelling inflation, drop in your currency, and so on. So you are still paying but in another form. Pick up any book on Supply Side Economists and you will know.

Thank you! Totally agree woth this!! Either way we are gonna be the losers no 2 ways about it.

Originally Posted by sgiitk

as far as I am concerned as a Citizen of India, I do not differentiate. I look at what I pay, what is the ultimate share of taxation, be it centre or state or whatever and that is it.

One reason of this convoluted approach is that while they are able to show the excise etc as revenue, the 'subsidy' is not directly accounted for. No.2 is everywhere incl the accounts of our govt.

Agreed, The taxation structure shouldn't be of concern to us. But ultimately, the centre govt has to compensate IOC for selling diesel below market price as IOC is still answerable to the remaining shareholders except govt. So, all in all, they have to shell money to IOC which negates the very purpose of taxes and which cannot be used for other purposes(ok they dish out freebies for getting some party to bend over backwards for their cause but still ).

If at all, they are going to deregularize, i think GST like uniform taxation is a must with low taxes. Not the ridiculous taxation system which is there right now(1Re metro tax per L of fuel in Bangalore Bloody hell ).

FYI i have no affiliation towards Congress or P.C . Hate both of them for pushing India to the brink despite the so called "Boom period".

[sgiitk]

Agree. Will we rather have an Economy like Germany (totally supply side, i.e. Hayekian), or Italy. Also, remember UK used to be Keynesian till Maggie took over. In the US when Bush and Obama tried to be Keynesian the Tea Party Movement was born.

To put in bluntly Earn before spending, or Spend hoping that the earning will go up!

The biggest sufferers of high inflation is the retiree and the aam admi ((their savings lose value). The smarter chaps can compensate using the Stock Market, Commodities, etc over the long term.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@shadows123; Where is ths subsidy on Diesel. You have also got taken in by the propaganda. The total taxation customs, excise, etc. still exceeds the 'so called subsidy'. o they are taking more than what they are giving back.

I hope but have grave doubts about the pricing being made more realistic. You are paying in any case be it through the price, inflation, taxation or rupee depreciation.

You have read my mind! I was about to comment along similar lines.I have been looking for someone on the forum who can guide me in some research I want to do.sorry to be a bit off topic but I want to start a thread and figure out the total tax paid by a person to the government. Lets say someone whose take home is 50k p.m. I.e. income tax,tax on fuel,electricity, service tax, sales tax.all kinds of tax!!!!! Is there a source where I can find taxes levied on food, automobiles, electronics etc etc.

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@shadows123; Where is ths subsidy on Diesel. You have also got taken in by the propaganda. The total taxation customs, excise, etc. still exceeds the 'so called subsidy'. o they are taking more than what they are giving back.

I hope but have grave doubts about the pricing being made more realistic. You are paying in any case be it through the price, inflation, taxation or rupee depreciation.

You have read my mind! I was about to comment along similar lines.I have been looking for someone on the forum who can guide me in some research I want to do.sorry to be a bit off topic but I want to start a thread and figure out the total tax paid by a person to the government. Lets say someone whose take home is 50k p.m. I.e. income tax,tax on fuel,electricity, service tax, sales tax.all kinds of tax!!!!! Is there a source where I can find taxes levied on food, automobiles, electronics etc etc.

[shadows123]

Hike in petrol, diesel prices likely after Friday: An increase in petrol, diesel, domestic cooking gas (LPG) and kerosene prices looks "imminent" after the Finance Ministry said it has no money to provide for fuel subsidy. "This (hike) is imminent. There is no question of holding back now," a top oil ministry official said today. In all possibility, prices may be increased after the current monsoon session of Parliament ends on Friday.

No money for subsidy but money for "Mission to Mars" ?? ..surely govt has better excuses than this!!!!

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by kicksperliter

JUST my Thought. Don't be Voting your voices for Increase in DIESEL, Increase in LPG, without keeping in my its rippling effects on Common man like us.

1. Lets just deregulate diesel prices and,
2. For any public transporter (Indian railways) diesel can be offered via a separate supply chain if it isnt already.
3. For private transporters, the hike should impact in terms of per capita transport price. But they will just use it as an excuse for a price hike. So might be better to give them some benefits in tax returns on basis of diesel receipts.
4. LPG hikes need to be done in small spurts. or just put a limit on subsidised cylinders to 4 per house per year. 5th cylinder onwards at market price.

Originally Posted by drsingh

Lets say someone whose take home is 50k p.m. I.e. income tax,tax on fuel,electricity, service tax, sales tax.all kinds of tax!!!!! Is there a source where I can find taxes levied on food, automobiles, electronics etc etc.

For somebody with a gross income of 6L per year:
monthly gross - 50,000
take home = 47,500 (assuming investment declaration at 1L & interest on housing loan at 1L)
less:
property tax
road tax
tax on fuel
VAT (on all purchases)
service tax
educational cess
toll on roads/ highways
etc

why dont they just give us income tax relief for all these taxes we pay?

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

1. Lets just deregulate diesel prices and,
2. For any public transporter (Indian railways) diesel can be offered via a separate supply chain if it isnt already.
3. For private transporters, the hike should impact in terms of per capita transport price. But they will just use it as an excuse for a price hike. So might be better to give them some benefits in tax returns on basis of diesel receipts.
4. LPG hikes need to be done in small spurts. or just put a limit on subsidised cylinders to 4 per house per year. 5th cylinder onwards at market price.

For somebody with a gross income of 6L per year:
monthly gross - 50,000
take home = 47,500 (assuming investment declaration at 1L & interest on housing loan at 1L)
less:
property tax
road tax
tax on fuel
VAT (on all purchases)
service tax
educational cess
toll on roads/ highways
etc

why dont they just give us income tax relief for all these taxes we pay?

I want to know more details. Like out of the 20 rs I pay for a chips packet.how much goes to the government.

Its a simple question but with a very complicated answer.lots of research.

Where do I find taxation details?

[paperweight]

There is no such thing as a free lunch. The Government cannot subsidize diesel and cooking gas unless something else is taxed. What they have done with the diesel and cooking gas subsidies is very, very wrong and they have used populist sentiments to give people something that is ultimately paid for by other people. I think the English would say they robbed Peter to pay Paul. Now they are in a bind as Peter hasn't any more money and Paul needs more money - the oil companies are going in for short term borrowings. As far as the petrol car owners are concerned, they never had any subsidy and on the contrary they paid upto 50% of their cost of petrol in the form of taxes to the Centre and the States - exception being Goa. As far as the diesel owners are concerned, they received an excise subsidy at the time of purchase of their vehicle and then a subsidy of more than Rs 20 per litre all through the life of their ownership. That is quite contrary to the spirit of the meek inheriting the Earth.
The solution? Difficult today because they Government was busy giving free lunches for votes - but it has to happen - gradually let the diesel prices reach the decontrolled price and reduce taxes on petrol to allow petrol to reach the decontrolled price of diesel - they come from the same crude stock - International Crude price + transport + refinery costs = cost of diesel or petrol or kerosine, etc. Gradually remove excise anomalies to ensure diesel and petrol vehicles are sold at par and gradually because you don't want to hurt the auto industry. Problem is the extent of diesel usage - all trucks, buses, railway locomotives, gensets for mobile telephone towers, irrigation pump sets and the list goes on and on. But it still has to be done - there is no such thing as a free lunch.

[drsingh]

This clipping is from today's paper.it looks like the government sells diesel at a little loss.
Does the price paid to refinery include taxes on the refinery?

[sgiitk]

Maybe this time something happens. Oil Ministry is bust (looks like PC is refusing more dole), IOC is bust, so maybe they will be forced to increase the prices across the board, and finally pick up the courage to face Mamata after the 7th.

One thing for sure, the moment Diesel goes up a bit, the markets will respond very positively!

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by paperweight

There is no such thing as a free lunch. The Government cannot subsidize diesel and cooking gas unless something else is taxed. What they have done with the diesel and cooking gas subsidies is very, very wrong and they have used populist sentiments to give people something that is ultimately paid for by other people. I think the English would say they robbed Peter to pay Paul. Now they are in a bind as Peter hasn't any more money and Paul needs more money - the oil companies are going in for short term borrowings. As far as the petrol car owners are concerned, they never had any subsidy and on the contrary they paid upto 50% of their cost of petrol in the form of taxes to the Centre and the States - exception being Goa. As far as the diesel owners are concerned, they received an excise subsidy at the time of purchase of their vehicle and then a subsidy of more than Rs 20 per litre all through the life of their ownership. That is quite contrary to the spirit of the meek inheriting the Earth.
The solution? Difficult today because they Government was busy giving free lunches for votes - but it has to happen - gradually let the diesel prices reach the decontrolled price and reduce taxes on petrol to allow petrol to reach the decontrolled price of diesel - they come from the same crude stock - International Crude price + transport + refinery costs = cost of diesel or petrol or kerosine, etc. Gradually remove excise anomalies to ensure diesel and petrol vehicles are sold at par and gradually because you don't want to hurt the auto industry. Problem is the extent of diesel usage - all trucks, buses, railway locomotives, gensets for mobile telephone towers, irrigation pump sets and the list goes on and on. But it still has to be done - there is no such thing as a free lunch.

The last time there was a substantial increase in diesel price,there was a big standoff with transporters and farmers.

Subsidy removal to these sections and industry will be extremely difficult to achieve . Believe it or not traders of all kinds will Jack up prices for everything blaming it on diesel prices.

It happened when vat was implemented.I specifically remember dairy producers association increased prices by 15 percent even though vat didn't apply to them.