[Mohan Mathew A]

Apparently tomorrow, 1st Nov, the price for both will increase by, about, another 50 paise
This has to stop

[xcentrk]

Originally Posted by vharihar

My my, your observation skills must be poor! Do you not notice the metro construction works going on in *all* Tier 1 and Tier 2 and most Tier 3 and Tier 4 cities? Do you not see the EV vehicles delivered as public transport buses (under FAME-II subsidy) in an increasingly more number of cities (several in Mumbai and Pune)? Do you not see the AC local trains introduced in Mumbai with more on the way?

Do you not read the news about 8-lane Mumbai-Delhi expressway under construction, the Trans-Haryana expressway u/c, the Chenab bridge u/c on the Kashmir Rail link u/c, the Zojilla tunnel u/c, the swanky redeveloped railway stations at Bangalore Baiyappanahalli, Habibganj, Gandhinagar, etc? I'm not going to repeat the full list. See this:

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5092359 (The Official Fuel Prices Thread)

Do you think these drop down from the sky in a jiffy? It takes work and time to build these. All countries have gone though this, you don't see it in those countries because they did it before you and I were born.

So please take back your statements about developmental investments and investments in public transport infrastructure.

You want to debate, be objective, rational and factual. If you want to opine without being factual, well, then I have no words for you.

This is common sentiment these days and I can't do nothing but laugh at this. Don't you think there were developmental activities happened in previous decades even when petrol prices were low? Infrastructure work is something that's happening ever since I remember. Not only this government, but previous government does the same. Don't you agree? And in order to do that, did they tax heavily on fuel?

All people now blinded by such insane logic. All these taxing for what? Building central vista? Posting insane number of ads in papers. social media and not doing actual work?

Do you agree the fact that LPG prices risen so much, people would go back to the older methods of cooking with wood?

Stopped taking my car and stopped travelling to friends place because of roaring fuel prices. And I'm not comfortable in taking my wife and kid in bike for such long distance. And mind you, I'm earning in 6 figures and if I can feel the pinch so hard, I can't believe the suffering of people below the strata. All this is justified because there were 6 lanes and some metro construction?

While I agree the post that you have quoted without any sources, but the answer you gave is nothing but same. Irrational. Look at all the governments from around the world. Most of them will not inconvenience their citizens to achieve something in their mind. After all the GST, Income Tax directly from my salary, I have to endure this fuel tax and I will be thankful for the government because they build a couple of infrastructure projects? No thanks. I want my regular grocery price to be reasonable, so I can lead a peaceful life. And fuel is so entangled with every commodity, so taxing it so much is never, ever justified.

We can all talk about whatever we want, but think from poor people's perspective before you support this inhumane price hike.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by xcentrk

This is common sentiment these days and I can't do nothing but laugh at this. Don't you think there were developmental activities happened in previous decades even when petrol prices were low? Infrastructure work is something that's happening ever since I remember. Not only this government, but previous government does the same. Don't you agree?

The current metro in Mumbai was built by the 2004-2014 Maharashtra UPA govt. The SCLR was built by them. The Worli Sea-link was built by them. The Eastern Freeway was built by them. All 3 of these ended up as huge time savers. Most new stuff I used to use all the time was built by them.

[superchamp]

Fuel Prices increasing impacts everyone. For reference see the chart below an year back

Current Petrol Price - 113.15
Difference from last year ~ INR 30

This was enough for a bike to run ~20 KM last year. Now you can get the bike to just start

[DigitalOne]

I follow infrastructure news like a freak . It is true that this government is doing much more than previous governments. You don't have to believe me, just listen to even opposition politicians speak about Gadkari, or read quarterly reports of L&T or other infra cos. I can quote examples but that will distract from my central point below.

Fuel taxes are NOT the way to fund this. High fuel taxes affect everybody. End users of this infrastructure have to pay for this, not every citizen of India. Increase the tolls, metro fares, ticket prices etc. Don't put this burden on someone who may never use this infra.

[DogNDamsel12]

Originally Posted by vharihar

My my, your observation skills must be poor! Do you not notice the metro construction works going on in *all* Tier 1 and Tier 2 and most Tier 3 and Tier 4 cities? Do you not see the EV vehicles delivered as public transport buses (under FAME-II subsidy) in an increasingly more number of cities (several in Mumbai and Pune)? Do you not see the AC local trains introduced in Mumbai with more on the way?

Do you think these drop down from the sky in a jiffy? It takes work and time to build these. All countries have gone though this, you don't see it in those countries because they did it before you and I were born.......

You want to debate, be objective, rational and factual. If you want to opine without being factual, well, then I have no words for you.

A lot of the projects that you are mentioning are not undertaken by the Government on their own. Developmental activities in any case are the active job of public sector undertakings like NHAI for Roads, PGCIL for Power transmission lines, etc. However, they don't build only based on taxpayer's money, rather such building of infrastructure is done through borrowings from multilateral development banks like World Bank, IMF, AIIB. The Kolkata Metro has the investment of JICA, for example. Similarly, roads are now built through public private partnerships, and the concessionaire raises the funds through tolls. This is called the Build Operate Transfer model.

Additionally, the government has massive plans for asset monetization of public infrastructure owned by the central government or in plain English what we call selling of Railway assets, energy assets, GAIL, HAL, roads, airports to private sector for drawing outlandish profits.

Fuel import is a reality. India still doesn't have the capacity or technology to deploy renewables, therefore, the deployment of EV that runs on fossil fuel does nothing for environmental commitment. So by imposing huge taxes and duty to develop infrastructure is a hogwash. It only lays bare the vulnerability of any government to contain fuel prices and inflation and take care of its citizens.

Honestly, some of the logic that I have read on this thread about India covertly building its defence systems and therefore,the opposition also staying silent, is ridiculous at best and hilarious, at worst! Fact is we are a subject of the boiling frog experiment and won't see it unless.. I don't know unless what since we still don't see!

[SLK]

Originally Posted by DigitalOne

Fuel taxes are NOT the way to fund this. High fuel taxes affect everybody. End users of this infrastructure have to pay for this, not every citizen of India. Increase the tolls, metro fares, ticket prices etc. Don't put this burden on someone who may never use this infra.

I hope at least one thing all here would agree, that the money is needed! The mechanism for collecting, which seems to be heavily tilted towards fuel, is questionable, I agree.

Ok, I'm not trying to get into a debate here, but lets say govt. is able to find a way to cut fuel taxes and put some burden on things you mentioned: tolls, metro fares, ticket prices (or other similar things). Do you think the share of taxes for this group of primarily car owners will increase or fall? and who will bear the bigger brunt then?

I'm not justifying anything, just saying its not very simple, its a very complex problem to take so much money from Indian middle class, so everyone (both center and states) are just not doing anything, at least this way they can blame this increase on the international price change (+ the center/ state debate). If they make it so clear and charge this money from tolls/ metro fares/ train tickets, it will look like a bigger robbery than what it looks now.

Now, if some (or many) believe this money should not be collected at all, I'm not here to debate that.

[Ford5]

Scouting for a pre owned car to save some money is also pointless now.. Even if prices come down for a bit, they will shoot up again as much after a short time.

[theqca]

The interesting thing is - not a single political party seems to be promising low fuel prices if voted into power.

To me in the current scenario, that seems like a no brainer.
Just promise to reduce fuel prices by about 40% and you'll be the PM for a long time. Even a so called elitist townie pseudo secular whatever chap like me who's never voted in his life would stand in that line all day if needed and vote!

I also agree with you guys when you say you are feeling the pinch. Inspite of us earning a sufficient amount of money we are feeling the pinch. Imagine the plight of people who are not so fortunate.

[Exhuberance]

Without getting into the debate of this govt. v/s that govt. - I am certain that high fuel prices are here to stay. In fact just read a FT article that repeats the case for high fossil fuel prices -
“So, if governments are serious about climate change, the focus cannot just be on legislation that shifts supply. They must tackle demand. High energy prices, even if unpopular with voters, will be needed if we are to have any chance of meeting the ambitious energy targets set by governments.”

Which brings me to wonder - has anyone in this forum changed substantially their fuel consumption habits?
I read some posts about people using their fuel efficient cars more often than the gas guzzlers or driving more sedately. But are we consuming significantly less now, like have people on this forum started making an extra effort to take public transport or car pool?

As for myself, I only consume less now because of WFH else there has been no change in my consumption habits. Even if WFH stops it may take a price level of 300-400 per ltr before I switch from my car to say a 2-wheeler for my office commute.
With COP26 starting, maybe the forum should also discuss what can the individuals like us do to reduce our carbon footprint.

[SLK]

Sorry for posting again! - my edit window on the previous post expired.

Some people interested in reading may want to read the government's financial statements here: https://www.indiabudget.gov.in/annual_final_stmt.php

Originally Posted by theqca

To me in the current scenario, that seems like a no brainer.
Just promise to reduce fuel prices by about 40% and you'll be the PM for a long time. Even a so called elitist townie pseudo secular whatever chap like me who's never voted in his life would stand in that line all day if needed and vote!

There are fewer people in India who can potentially understand the economy/ economics. Many/ most on this tread are capable of that if they read and understand mechanisms, rather than reading news articles and watching TV debates.

I hope no one votes like that on such fake promises, because this isn't possible (fuel goes down something else will go up).

[careind]

I just checked the petrol price graph here
https://www.mycarhelpline.com/index....=808&Itemid=91
Petrol has been increasing 100% every decade, at least in the last 15 years. Why should it be different now?

April-03 Rs 33.49
Apr-13 Rs 66.09

June-04 Rs 35.71
Apr-14 Rs 72.26

Apr-11 Rs 58.5
July-21 Rs 99.86


Having said that, fuel tax/excise has been a cash cow since time immemorial. Just wishing that it would drop out of the budget is just that, a wish. We were discussing about infrastructure for public consumption. But the defense spending, and the infrastructure work in the border has enormously increased in the recent years.
India still had sukois and MIG which were at least 2 decades old. What is the cost of modernizing the army, that too with such hostile neighbours and within a short time?
In addition to that the Government is under enormous burden with the Corona issue. On the one hand all businesses have taken a beating and the revenues are down. So exports are hit and Dollar/INR ratio has jumped. On the other hand there is a huge additional cost of vaccinating the entire population. Where is the additional money coming from? Cannibalizing on existing schemes to an extent and cash cows.
I think currently the only available cash cow to milk is Fuel/Excise tax, which has been the way since a long time.
As long as there are no major financial scams, trivial claims of new parliament building or Advertisements not withstanding, we shouldn't look at serializing issues with a tunnel vision and understand that India was never a benefit state and has been/is infact a state with a VERY deficit budget. So any emergency ( like Corona disaster, modernizing Army, Building infrastructure in the border ) happens, the additional cost would invariably hit the tax paying public in different forms.
And it is going to happen, when hostility of China creeps up beyond the threshold anytime in the near future and blows up.

[n33rav]

Miss those day badly when few rupee diesel price hike used to stop the wheels of heavy vehicles. It didn't hampered nations progress nor it was called antinational back then.

[fawad0222]

Friends, I can understand your pain fully as I am a part of this mass suffering but let's take deeper understanding of all sorts of mess we are in today.
It is the inherent weakness of the democracy, where we elect government on the basis of the one who crosses the hurdle first, no matter how many absolute numbers of votes he gets out of the total. Also in this ballot system, it is expected that people are really aware of their rights and really can take a sensible, informed and reasonable decision. But in reality this is not the case in our country. The truth is that even in a country like US people had a black president just now and still there has been no lady President. So this system of electing government is fraught with dangers and that's what has been happening in India , may be, right after first 15 years of independence. We the majority of our country are not ready to take this responsibility yet and might not be may be for another few decades.
Till then we must ride our car er luck ��

[ABHI_1512]

Originally Posted by theqca

Just promise to reduce fuel prices by about 40% and you'll be the PM for a long time.

Absolutely right you are, I suppose someone did that already some time back, so that’s not on the list anymore !!

This thread has now some real fun replies, I leave it to the fellow member’s imagination to see through. Someone is saying taxing the fuel is okay since leakage is negligible, now that’s a theory I would like to get some more information. Seems like, there’s no end and age to learn and I am willing to learn some more about the economy and why the fuel needs to be taxed so much, will keep an eye on this thread every now and then.

P.S- Mods may delete if found unnecessary to this thread.