[carboy]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

when you want high GDP growth, cheap loans, infrastructure, welfare schemes somewhere money has to come from and easiest way is from fuel taxes.

:-) High taxes to have high GDP growth - what school of economics is this?

That aside, we have high taxes & low growth.

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

The government debt has increased tremendously in the last 8 years, some say 90% of GDP which may or may not be right and if government keeps subsidizing fuel it will not be good for economy.

Petrol & Diesel aren't subsidised & no one is asking to subsidise it either. I am not sure where you got that impression. You have created a strawman & destroyed it.
All we are asking for is to reduce fuel taxes to 2014 levels.

[M00M]

Petrol Diesel fuel taxes wont come down to 2014 levels. We have to forget those now. The world has moved on, lot of new variables and challenges currently local and global are ahead, call it a minor military face off with China, or Pakistan or Taliban or even if we are sucked into a NATO Russia face off which could trigger global war like scenario in the coming years. There could even be another pandemic type disaster or a disaster caused by rising oceans thanks to global warming or this barrage of dropping bombs on land in some part of the globe.

The GOI will need funds for all of this and a large chunk of funds will be diverted from the fuel taxes. Even the Oil Bonds issue is on going. We may further see some rationalisation in GST rates and rate cuts for development of new technologies which may need some hand holding for initial years. The worst come scenario where fuel prices will rocket up again, we may see a maximum upto Rs. 5/- cut in taxes both central and state combined, I dont see any other fiscal space for them to effect a larger cut. States and parties like AAP currently providing free electricity further adding to the problem as they will need taxes collected to be able to provide these freebies so the states will also not have room to provide tax cuts in excise duty.

Further GOI wants to promote EV and Green Hydrogen so best to gear up for these as the future transport "fuels".

[batish]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

Fuel prices do hurt and persistent rise will lead to more inflation but we all forget that when you want high GDP growth, cheap loans, infrastructure, welfare schemes somewhere money has to come from and easiest way is from fuel taxes.

Infrastructure? Please mention any three places which can be used without paying for it? For good roads - we pay toll which btw gets increment every year. Telecommunication Infrastructure - Do you use BSNL, infact anybody uses BSNL? Water infra, Transport Infra, Electric Infra - anything you are getting subsidy in? If yes, please do inform under which scheme.

The only place where money could be going is in schemes for BPL food schemes which is like visible. Ofcourse, there are hundreds of other departments but this is the only place it is visible. For others, we are paying for it.

easiest way is from fuel taxes.

It means there are other ways too. They should explore them for once BUT ONLY AFTER reducing taxes from fuel.

The government debt has increased tremendously in the last 8 years, some say 90% of GDP which may or may not be right and if government keeps subsidising fuel it will not be good for economy.

Debt increases or decreases, that is government's business. Not ours. Just because they cannot do it right, does not mean citizens need to pay for it through their nose.

For your information, subsidy on fuel was stopped years ago. I repeat, years ago. Just check how much amount they have collected in fuel taxes. You'll be amazed to see how many times govt could provide 'free' vaccination to their citizens.

Middle class or shall I say salaried class enjoyed since Independence at the expense of poor and corporates through subsidized fuel, food, education and are now unable to adjust to reality of economics.

Btw, middle class or shall as you say salaried class would still manage somehow, maximum effect of fuel hike falls on the poor. Fuel hike and Inflation are directly proportional. I don't think enjoy is the right term. Whenever you get time just wonder for once how much tax you have paid and what the government provided you in social security.

P.S: Price of Cylinder touched 1000 today. So do you think the people on whose expense we enjoyed since Independence, would be able to afford this?

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

Middle class or shall I say salaried class enjoyed since Independence at the expense of poor and corporates through subsidized fuel, food, education and are now unable to adjust to reality of economics.

Hey, pardon my ignorance, but can you please cite some authoritative sources which shows how much subsidy is being enjoyed by the salaried class in India. I really have no clue on how much subsidy is being given to us for fuel, food, education and god knows what else.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by FrozeninTime

The government debt has increased tremendously in the last 8 years, some say 90% of GDP

Is it? Then how?

Earlier, there were subsidies for fuel. Now, govt's one of the main income is fuel. Almost 5 lakh crore is collected annually by central govt as fuel taxes. If more amount is spent for roads, toll is collected, and reached the roof. There is no reduction in personal taxes. Prices and so the GST tax collection is sky high. Even then, if the govt debt is increased, then it is financial mis management. Education does matter.

Middle class or shall I say salaried class enjoyed since Independence at the expense of poor and corporates through subsidized fuel, food, education...

Now only some corporates and businessmen are enjoying at the expense of all sorts of people. That's the difference.

(Another set of people enjoying now are the ones working and living abroad and seeing all the roof top claims. Come to India and see the reality.)

People have to open their eyes. Not to be blind believers.

People have to raise the voice against the fuel hikes. Don't fear the consequences or jail.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by M00M

Petrol Diesel fuel taxes wont come down to 2014 levels. We have to forget those now. The world has moved on, lot of new variables and challenges currently local and global are ahead, call it a minor military face off with China, or Pakistan or Taliban or even if we are sucked into a NATO Russia face off which could trigger global war like scenario in the coming years. There could even be another pandemic type disaster or a disaster caused by rising oceans thanks to global warming or this barrage of dropping bombs on land in some part of the globe.

You assume fuel taxes were increased only recently. The truth is that fuel taxes (and many other taxes) started getting increased from 2014 on. Most fuel tax increases came before 2019.

Originally Posted by M00M

Even the Oil Bonds issue is on going.

Oil Bonds are a non issue. The annual payment on Oil Bonds (which started around 2002) is around 15000 odd crores. The previous govt also paid oil bonds issues by the earlier govt. The Fuel Tax collection now is some 3 Lakh crore more per year as compared to 2014.

There are so many excuses being given, sometimes it feels pointless to argue.

[FiatDiesel]

Don’t know where we are headed with price rise in basic essential fuels. Some state government did reduced the taxes however given the politics even many states are not doing so. In MH buying petrol is like buying gold mixed sarbat. Activa used to get full with 250 worth of fuel, now it’s close to 500.
It’s shame for Union and state governments.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by FiatDiesel

Some state government did reduced the taxes however given the politics even many states are not doing so.

It's the Union Govt fuel taxes which have increased by around 28 Rs since 2014. Why should the State Govts reduce their taxes?

The reason why some states are able to is given here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5312141 (The Official Fuel Prices Thread)

[FiatDiesel]

Originally Posted by carboy

It's the Union Govt fuel taxes which have increased by around 28 Rs since 2014. Why should the State Govts reduce their taxes?

The reason why some states are able to is given here - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post5312141 (The Official Fuel Prices Thread)

Carboy, you are right however as common man, I expect either of the two should provide relief. While Union government relaxation doesn’t seems to be happening however in MH we do pay almost Rs 10 per litre more then some states. This difference easily saves 500 bucks per tankful.

[vharihar]

Originally Posted by carboy

It's the Union Govt fuel taxes which have increased by around 28 Rs since 2014. Why should the State Govts reduce their taxes?

The central govt carries a far greater burden than the states, and the spend targets are also much, much more under present central govt. For infra alone its a huge leg up compared to any other govt, I ain't going to repeat them, you can see https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/india...ml#post4990557 (The Official Fuel Prices Thread) (this list omits some other high-cost ones, such as the NHSRCL bullet train project, NCRTC Delhi-Meerut RRTS project, etc as I forgot to add them, both of these are in active construction, google them up).

Take Mumbai for example. The BMC is the richest municpal corporation. It ought not to beg to central govt for funds. You make it sound like the state govt (eg. MH in this example) is cash-strapped due to central govt, and hence can't reduce VAT. Well, if some states (that are not aligned with central govt) are cash-strapped, it's largely due to their own missteps, like Punjab doling our more-than-justifiable freebies (free electricity, anyone?), corruption, etc.

Originally Posted by carboy

The reason why some govts are able to reduce is very simple. Union Govt has increased fuel taxes like crazy from 2014 on. So they have a lot of revenue. They siphon back more of that money to states they prefer (which is what is the meaning of Double Engine ka Sarkaar - they advertise it in their pre-election speeches saying the states will get more spending from the Union Budget if they have a double engine Sarkaar.). So those states have spend less from their own pockets for their project. So they can afford to reduce taxes. The Single Engine State Sarkars do not have the same luxury

This is bogus, total speculation. What "double engine ki sarkaar" usually means is like-minded thinking and hence quick approvals and good cooperation between central and state govt in projects. A classic good example of this is central-govt and UP. A classic bad example of this is central govt and MVA govt in MH, where ever since MVA govt came to power, the MVA govt has created hurdles on the MH side of projects like the bullet train project (where land acquisition is going smoothly on the GJ side but not on the MH side) as well as the Delhi-Mumbai expressway (same situation). There is no evidence of "double engine ki sarkaar" implying selective financial aid. Kindly do not build a false and unsubstantiated narrative simply to suit your position.

Indeed, an example of non-selective approval is the case of central govt (ie. NHAI) funded projects in KA state like Blore-Mysore expressway, Blore-Chennai expressway and Blore STRR even when the HDK/Congress govts were there. These were approved by the present central govt before Yedyurappa came to power.

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

The semiconductor mission : it is a Rs 76000 crore "plan" (read fresh carrot) spread over 6 years and YET to see a start date. I belong to the core semiconductor industry. Most of the 76K Cr is notional spend. Not really tangible spends out of guvs fat pockets. Yes, some subsidies here and there, but mostly convoluted and restrictive procedures, without direct consultations from the real industry pundits. (I still remember Make in India, Startup India, FAME, ESDM; new year, new plans!)

Infra spend : Significant visible implementation has happened. However, I live along one of the most hyped NHs and it is a living example of how a NH should not be built. Heard of flooded NH/flyovers, please? In the race to tick off the list, there are grave dilutions. Anyway, the union budget allocates that, has been allocating that spend anyway, since the last several decades.
...
Covid : Yeah, right! It is all about proving how the world followed wrong methodology....in everything that is against the narrative. Suffering : False, Oxygen : False, Deaths : False, Guv paid for all vaccines : FALSE!

I am also in the semiconductor industry, closer to fabrication actually (modeling and design enablement). On what basis do you say intangible spends? The PM and Ashwini Vaishnaw have gone on record stating that they'll go beyond $10B if need be. Never before has such a sincere effort been put in getting semicon mfg in India. Sure, $10B is still small compared to infra spend, so that wasn't the best example. And FAME spend has already happened to a great extent. The best example is still infra spend, which is huge by this govt.

You mention "Heard of flooded NH/flyovers", I'm sorry, no I haven't heard. I'm sure flooding is more common within cities than on NHs. In any case, even a few NHs do suffer from flooding, I'm sure those are fixable and don't take away credit from the fact that infra spend is big.

You mention "the union budget ...has been allocating that spend anyway, since the last several decades." Yeah right! Allocating and perhaps siphoning it away! Since 2015, there's been a paradigm shift by an order of magnitude in the seriousness and intent with which projects are getting executed, with big machinery thrown in. I ain't going to repeat it, you can see above link.

BTW, the government did pay for Covid vaccines for those who went to govt clinics/PHC's. You and I didn't go there so we probably didn't see it being free. But there are several I know who went to a PHC and got their shots for free. And this is the right model.

Originally Posted by lapis_lazuli

That is not an excuse to LIE, announcing "enhanced excise is a buffer, to be decreased when prices shoot up" (whenever oil prices went down)! and yes, don't forget the relentless insult to intelligence: "fuel prices are deregulated". Elections, anyone?

But yes, the center could release the GST due to states. That too, is doable for sure!

Agreed.

Net, net, I agree taxes should be reduced, by both central govt and the state govts. For a start, by the state govts (like MH) that havent done so as yet.

[carboy]

Originally Posted by vharihar

The central govt carries a far greater burden than the states,

I don't think so. And if they aren't able to handle the burden, they need to quit & let someone else who can handle it take over.

Originally Posted by vharihar

Take Mumbai for example. The BMC is the richest municpal corporation. It ought not to beg to central govt for funds.

What did it beg?

Originally Posted by vharihar

You make it sound like the state govt (eg. MH in this example) is cash-strapped due to central govt,

I explained the reason how double engine works different from single engine. And the reason for higher Union taxes is double engine.

Originally Posted by vharihar

and hence can't reduce VAT. Well, if some states (that are not aligned with central govt) are cash-strapped, it's largely due to their own missteps, like Punjab doling our more-than-justifiable freebies (free electricity, anyone?), corruption, etc.

How much Far Loan waiver was given by UP? Was it 35,000 crores? Is that more or less than electricity freebie?

[M00M]

Originally Posted by carboy

I don't think so. And if they aren't able to handle the burden, they need to quit & let someone else who can handle it take over.

You sound really naive my friend, elections dont happen every month and the cost of one election is far far too much and when the Govt is functioning there is no reason to resign. If you dont agree with their work that is a different topic. Anyways everyone has a point of view and the way you want your point of view to be heard and respected, kindly respect the same of others as well, and there are specific MOD regulated rules regarding political conversations so kindly dont go about comparing MH and UP and so on and so forth, as the comments will be deleted and you may get an infraction.

Coming to your rather nonchalant response, if the previous Govt were so capable why did we have incursions on our borders even after which the infrastructure was not developed over there and in the villages in the last 70 years ? Please step out of this mindset that the present Govt is not doing anything or is having step treatment to some states because the media can type anything in a democracy but not everything written is true and definitely has some mirch masala to it. Just for an example I would like you to get into your car and drive to any interior village in GJ - there are proper smooth roads even in the villages, and in MH you dont even have good roads in a city like Mumbai, its nothing but shame and disappointing that the financial centre of the country has potholes worse than the moon.

Originally Posted by vharihar

Net, net, I agree taxes should be reduced, by both central govt and the state govts. For a start, by the state govts (like MH) that havent done so as yet.

My friend its pointless to argue with people or to show people the right or the wrong, everyone has their views, present Govt is spending way way more and doing way more road building, micro chip push, and many other correct and required things. Funds are needed for these pushes including green hydrogen etc, so definitely easy commodities like petrol diesel will be taxed. They are also "nudging" us to forego our reliance on petrol diesel and to move towards battery and hydrogen or any other alternatives. It is just a transition phase also aimed towards meeting our climate objectives. All said and done taxes should be reduced but I do not see that happening at any point of time, what goes up in India hardly comes down especially petrol diesel prices so its time we enjoyed our vehicles, till the EV onslaught and the green hydrogen onslaught starts soon enough in a few years.

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by carboy

I don't think so. And if they aren't able to handle the burden, they need to quit & let someone else who can handle it take over.

Can't believe that people are defending the government, and that too very selectively. Tax on something is okay if it is by a certain government, say central, but the same people turn the argument around and say it is unfair if it is done by the state!

I don't see the benefits of taxation, except maybe for government officials who are never held accountable for their dismal performance which has led us to this state. There is a complete thread on emigrating to a foreign country where someone suggested that the government collect money (I would call it a tax) for every person that settles abroad. I have a better suggestion - provide an incentive to foreign governments to hire all our government employees (making sure that any benefits to the foreign nations that these government employees may have worked into the rules while they were "working" for India are thoroughly scrutinized). We will be able to immediately lower all our fuel prices (and everything else).

That we, supposedly educated citizens, are arguing here over taxes shows that the government has not been transparent about how it is spending our taxes. I remember that the railway budget was merged with the general budget to hide the fact that more than 80 percent of railway revenue goes to pay railway employees' salaries, perks, and pensions - and we know how badly the Indian Railways are run, this even after the fare increases for "improving" the railways.

What is happening here is the same thing that we've seen with the BMTC, the Bengaluru bus services provider. They provide the worst possible service with ever increasing fares, splurge on unnecessary items like electric buses and Volvos, but are apparently making a profit. I don't remember if any of the employees were laid off during the pandemic when no bus services were provided. Every now and then they win some award given by their colleagues (some collection of similar tax funded bus service providers across India) and the circus goes on.

Yes, I'm sure petrol should be priced at Rs 1000 or even Rs 5000 per litre to make India a Singapore. But will our government be able transform India? I have my doubts, given past performance data.

[airbus]

Meghalaya diesel rate yesterday = ₹88.47 per litre

[mvadg]

Originally Posted by airbus

Meghalaya diesel rate yesterday = ₹88.47 per litre

What!? No. Can't be. You must have read the fuel pressure. Or there's some bug that put the fuel pressure into the price field. On second thought, can we lay a pipeline from Meghalaya to Bengaluru? Or even short circuit the supply lines going to Meghalaya and divert them to Bengaluru? Wishful thinking? Obviously.