[RX135]

Germans (and scandinavians) are best at producing excellent reliable mechanical systems. So, was DC (till late 80s). As electronics gadgets started sneaking in, quality started deteriorating. That happened in last 10 years or so (some of the innovations fall in this time period).

If you leave aside your car in particular (which is a disaster in each and every sense), many of the problems worldwide reported on Mercs are related to electronical components.

I know, you will not book another Merc as of now (can not guarantee that for long though. Things do change over years). But, do you think a neutral person reading your experience will think that passionately about all the problems? May be not. He will instead check with few other owners. Some of them will report problems, many others will go ga-ga over the car. I believe, you bought the car couple of years back, when you had most information available (except T-BHP).

If you were a potential buyer, you would have read the report and would have treaded very cautiously, but need not have changed the decision. People read about many Fiat ASS disasters, but still buy it and are passionate about their cars. (Fiat is purely an example. Don't read much into it).

[Revvmaster]

Originally Posted by ajmat

Some comments of RevvMaster's quotes:


"Audi has a setup that should rival Mercedes' in another 2-3 years. And to add to that, the new A6 and the A8 beat the pants out of the E and S class"

Only issue is that the dealer principals have no experience in retailing maintaining cars (Burman group). PS How do you repair an aluminium bodied Audi ?

ANSWERS IN CAPS. APOLOGIES.

WELL IT ISN'T ALWAYS ABOUT EXPERTISE.. .ITS ALSO ABOUT THE MONEY ONE GETS IN TO THE FIELD. BY GETTING THE BURMAN GROUP IN THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING THAT MERCEDES DID IN 10 YEARS IN A SPAN OF THREE OR FOUR... SETTING UP A WIDE SERVICE NETWORK. EXPERTISE CAN BE OBTAINED AT A COST AND SERVICE EXECS CAN BE TRAINED. IT ISN'T ALL THAT DIFFICULT. ALUMINIUM BODIES... THE RIGHT TRAINING AND EQUIPMENT CAN SOLVE THE PROBLEM.


"If I am DCIL today, i'd be extremely worried" Agreed
"But it seems that those who are DCIL aren't at all. You know what they say? We'll worry only from 2006 end onwards." Cannot comment - maybe CLS55 could comment as he is nearest the front line
"Get this, the Cayenne will steal sales away from the S-class" The Range rover is doing a better job of this

"Unbelievable but true. The A8 too will do the same" Depends on if they can get rid of the "poor mans mercedes/ overpriced VW" tag

THE CONTEXT WAS IN INDIAN TERMS. AND MAYBE TO SOME EXTENT EUROPEAN. THE AUDI A6 AND A8 HAVE RECEIVED RACE REVIEWS WORLD OVER... PUTTING THEM ABOVE EVEN THE LIKES OF THE 5, E, 7 AND S-CLASS. THE S IS GETTING OLD. YES THERE IS A REPLACEMENT IN 2006... BUT THE QUESTION REALLY IS... WILL IT HAVE THE GREMLINS LIKE OLD DAYS? ALSO THE COMPETITION HAS CAUGHT UP. OTHER BRANDS HAVE BEEN WORKING EXTREMELY HARD ON THEIR MARKETING SIDE AS WELL SINCE THE 90s. MERCEDES ISN'T ALONE. HARPING ON YOUR PAST ACHIEVEMENTS AND BEING INCOMPETENT IN PRESENT DAY TERMS DOESN'T MEAN ONE CAN GET AWAY WITH IT. NEITHER CAN MERCEDES.


"The 5-series and 3-series will create hell hath fury in the Mercedes showrooms" Agreed - but again Mercedes are slowly enhancing equipment levels in the E Class (sunroofs) / C Class - watch out for new engines and a new C Class shortly

THE NEW E-CLASS IS STUNNING. ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT. IT IS ON PAR WITH THE 5 SERIES IN TERMS OF PERFORMANCE. THE NEW C, IF AND WHEN IT DOES COME, SHOULD BE INTERESTING. TILL THEN THE A4 AND 3 WILL TAKE IT APART. IF NOTHING ELSE, SEE LAST YEAR'S SALES FIGURES FOR BOTH THE A4 AND 3 SERIES AND COMPARE IT WITH THE C.

"The Boxster will literally lick the SLK apart" Ones a cruiser, ones a bruiser - both very different

I BEG TO DIFFER. THEY COST NEARLY THE SAME. PLUS THE SLK HAS UPPED ITS GAME IN THE NEW AVTAAR AND IS NOW LESS SISSY AND MORE OF A BRUISER IN CRUISER MODE. NOT VERY DIFFERENT. THE BOXSTER STILL SETS BENCHMARKS IN THIS CLASS. IN INDIA, IF ONE HAS 45-55 LAKHS TO SPEND ON A SPORTS CAR, THE STUTTGART SHIELD WILL REIN OVER THE 3 POINTED STAR. ITS MORE ABOUT SNOB AND BADGE VALUE HERE. PORSCHE COVERS THAT ASPECT AS WELL.

"And maybe the Z4 too will... someday" Outclassed by both so don't worry.

"The 750 and 760 Li will make mincemeat outta the S500". - Depends on pricing - S Class still has the advantage of space and presence. Remeber the S class have been with us since 1999, the BMw since 2001 Expect a new S Class in Frankfurt 2005


"The M-class is as good as dead." Oh no it is not - new one is pretty good all rounder
"the X5 and Cayenne will not let it survive here" - yes it will give competition but X5 is pretty cramped inside.

AGAIN... TELL ME OF HOW MANY X5s HAVE U SEEN ON THE INDIAN ROADS VIS-A-VIS THE M-CLASS. I REFER TO SALES IN INDIA WHEN I SAID THE M-CLASS IS AS GOOD AS DEAD. I AM SURE THERE ARE MORE CAYENNES THAN M-CLASSES AS WELL. MY CONTEXT IS INDIA IN THIS POST. THE X5 IS CRAMPED, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY IT IS MORE BANG FOR BUCK THAN AN M-CLASS. WORLDWIDE SALES FIGURES SHOULD SUPPORT THIS AS WELL.

"Now tell me one car that will really do well from the Mercedes stable? Sure they have the 3-pointed star, but other than a great spread of service centres..." The Eclass is a pretty good car despite conservative looks. C Class has no competition at present but next gen should resolve it

YES IN INDIA. BUT WHEN DOES THE NEW C COME?

"BMW will overtake Mercedes in terms of sales figures, it means BMW is doing something right that Mercedes ain't". " Product range is much younger than Mercedes also note that BMW include Mini which added 20% of its volume

THE FACT THAT THE MERCEDES RANGE IS OLDER THAN BMW GIVES IT NO EXCUSE TO PERFORM BADLY. MINI SELLS NO MORE THAN 15% OF ALL CARS. FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW THEN SMART SALES ARE INCLUDED AS WELL. THEN HOW IS ONE TO COME TO A LOGICAL CONCLUSION?

"I know of 7-series that conk-off .................. Still they are doing well". Cuz they have better reliability levels than Mercs.." - More robust electronics and very good customer care

I HOPE YOU MEAN THE BEEMER HERE...LOL.


"Right now, Mercedes needs a miracle to come out of its problems. 1.3 million cars getting recalled and not an apology from DC on their website? " actually, it would be cheaper if they apologised and did nothing - I think actions speak louder than words. They have acknowledged that electronics are the key problem. The recall is more a pro-active corrective action than a problem resolution for the E-class. they could have quietly done this on the sly whern the car is being serviced but they came clean

PERSONAL TOUCH IS A GOOD THING. BUT I GUESS WHEN YOU HAVE MEDIA OUTLETS LIKE THE NET, WHY NOT USE THEM?

"What kinda PR is this? ...............ywhere on their site to get their cars back" They contacted the customers directly. More precise and personal - why should they tarnish their name, also how many merc owners visit the website - I never visit the honda website except to see a new model

" I wonder how Rudra manages to serve an account such as this which has no concern for its customers." Other than GTO and some others mentioned, are you sure that 100 % of all customers are dissatisfied? Please note that 10 dissatisfied customers make 50 times more noise than 100 satisfied customers.

THIS IS PURELY FROM A PROFESSIONAL POINT OF VIEW. IT DOESN'T MENTION CUSTOMER VIEWS ANYWHERE.

GTO and co are rightly aggrieved - You will note that warranty repairs have been done without a quibble however, Merc need to do more in terms of looking after existing customers. They are working towards making the product right - the newer cars A, M, SLK, CLS and E show that they are on the right path.

BRAVE STATEMENT. I HOPE YOU ARE TRUE ON THIS COUNT. I WISH TO SEE DC COME UP AS WELL.


TO SUM IT UP, I STILL HOLD THAT MERCEDES IS A BIT TOO UNCONCERNED AS FAR AS THE INDIAN OPERATIONS ARE CONCERNED. THE RIVALS ARE READY TO BITE THEIR NECK OFF. ITS ONLY THAT AS OF NOW THEY ARE CONCENTRATING THEIR ENERGIES ON SETTING UP OPS. ONCE THAT IS DONE, MERCEDES SHOULD FIND IT TOUGH. UNLESS THE MARKET EXPANDS PHENOMENALLY AS WELL. NOTE, WHEN YOU BUY A TOP NOTCH BRAND, YOU LOOK AT SERVICE AND RELIABILTY LEVELS AS WELL. AND IN A MARKET WHERE THE CUSTOMER WANTS SOMETHING DIFFERENT FROM HIS NEIGHBOUR/RIVAL, THERE WILL BE PEOPLE WHO WILL JUMP SHIP ONTO THESE NEW BRANDS IN INDIA. ITS EARLY DAYS FOR THESE BRANDS... BUT CLEARLY DCIL SHOULD BE WORRIED AND RIGHT AWAY TAKE THE APPROPRIATE STEPS TO COUNTER THIS DEVELOPMENT.

Revvmaster

[ajmat]

Rather than make a quote more quotes. Let me reply to the debate

Re: Audi setup - are you sure? Expertise and competency cannot always be bought. Most successful car dealers have been in the business already -all depends on how much audi invests in dealer development. Re: alu body - is it worth investing in the equipment when they will sell 40 /50 year – welding aluminium is a different vball game

Re: A6/A8 – Rave reviews yes- do they translate into sales – I rest my case – may not happen – see what happened to the Palio over here ! I do concede th world has caught up and one should not be complacent

Re: the C - it is expected that it will lose out to the A2 and 3 towards the end of its product life. BTW – can you quote sales figures and source for last year ? Next C due in 2006/7

Re: boxter – basic marketing error – never segment by cost/ segment by customer profile – Boxster is for outright driving pleasure. SLK is a practical tool which had boot space and proper roof. There is overlap – depnds on what the buyer wants. BTW CAR magazine felt the old 320SLK a better choice than a boxster (marginal though!)

X5 – being in Bangalore, I cannot comment – but people in that segment look for the “latest” - M class was over priced no doubt but since the X5 and Cayenne have come in – imports have been liberalized. As for Bang for Buv k – the ML 270 is cheaper than an X5. The M has outsold the X5 in the US because it is larger. Next 2007 X5 will be bigger .Let us view the worldwide sales

Re: Sales figures – I read the FT reports which reported Merc getting beaten in sales by BMW. It clearly stated that Mini was included in this figure. However, mercesed never included Smart or Chrsler which operated seperately until now

”PERSONAL TOUCH IS A GOOD THING. BUT I GUESS WHEN YOU HAVE MEDIA OUTLETS LIKE THE NET, WHY NOT USE THEM?” Because they believe in effective communication to resolve problems, not publicise them – at least they are open and not in denial

THIS IS PURELY FROM A PROFESSIONAL POINT OF VIEW. Could you define “professional point of view in this context without data / facts ?

[adityakhandelwal]

[quote]

But, do you think a neutral person reading your experience will think that passionately about all the problems? May be not. He will instead check with few other owners. Some of them will report problems, many others will go ga-ga over the car. I believe, you bought the car couple of years back, when you had most information available (except T-BHP).

umm no I have cancelled my original plan of booking an ECLASS petrol

[lamborghini]

Hey Aditya,
We also own an E class but the 270 CDI.
It is quite cool but most of these problems have been happening in the C Class.
I think the E class should be okay but an Audi A6 or BMW 5 series are better options.

[manticore]

Originally Posted by RX135

I do understand the rational behind your thinking. But, I had intentionally quoted some innovations which happened in previous 2 decades. Unfortunately being "the first", these innovations also invariably face initial reliability hiccups, which is why so many issues are reported against Mercs.

RX135, there is no doubt as to MB's innovative capabilities, having introduced many features that have found their way on to numerous other cars as well. But there was a time, when MB's used to be over-engineered and nothing could ever go wrong with them. It is this perception about MB that people still have and what encourages them to buy the same. But I dont see any reason why the customer, who is paying upwards of Rs 25 lac for a car has to be MB's guinea pig, in the sense they have to suffer the initial quality hiccups. We must get what we paid for, right?

Manti.

[Revvmaster]

Originally Posted by ajmat

Rather than make a quote more quotes. Let me reply to the debate

Re: Audi setup - are you sure? Expertise and competency cannot always be bought. Most successful car dealers have been in the business already -all depends on how much audi invests in dealer development. Re: alu body - is it worth investing in the equipment when they will sell 40 /50 year – welding aluminium is a different vball game

Re-Re: What expertise and competency are we talking about here? Getting people trained at Inglostadt shouldn't be a problem for a company flush with funds like the Dabur group. The funda is simple. If Audi wants to catch up with Mercedes it needs dealers who have more than just competency and expertise... the ability to garner funds in the shortest possible time. Simple business strategy.

Re: A6/A8 – Rave reviews yes- do they translate into sales – I rest my case – may not happen – see what happened to the Palio over here ! I do concede th world has caught up and one should not be complacent

Re:Re: Why don't we do a check on this. CAR, your fav mag in May 2004 did a road test and were nothing short of stunned by its ability to give the E and 5, finally a tough fight. Our local BSM and OD had similar views.

Re: the C - it is expected that it will lose out to the A2 and 3 towards the end of its product life. BTW – can you quote sales figures and source for last year ? Next C due in 2006/7

Re:Re: Source is Autocar. Can't seem to find it right now... but will source it once i get my hands on it.

Re: boxter – basic marketing error – never segment by cost/ segment by customer profile – Boxster is for outright driving pleasure. SLK is a practical tool which had boot space and proper roof. There is overlap – depnds on what the buyer wants. BTW CAR magazine felt the old 320SLK a better choice than a boxster (marginal though!)

Re: Re: You are again mistaking a European market approach for an Indian one. Raise your hands, those who with 55 lakhs and a sports car to buy... choose between a Merc or a Porsche in your garage. Driving dynamics, qualities though slightly different don't necessarily mean people will opt for one over the other on that basis alone. India as a market is still to reach that maturity even if the person on the other side is moneyed. Boot space and proper roof... except for a hard-top roof that once below had space only for a toothbrush, it isn't very different from the boxster. Are magazines wasting their time then pitting the Z4, Boxster, SLK and S2000 together for a showdown?

X5 – being in Bangalore, I cannot comment – but people in that segment look for the “latest” - M class was over priced no doubt but since the X5 and Cayenne have come in – imports have been liberalized. As for Bang for Buv k – the ML 270 is cheaper than an X5. The M has outsold the X5 in the US because it is larger. Next 2007 X5 will be bigger .Let us view the worldwide sales

Re: Re: Cheaper than an X5 3.0i right? But look at what value the X5 3.0D brings over the ML 270. 200 horses versus 160 respectively is just one of them.

Re: Sales figures – I read the FT reports which reported Merc getting beaten in sales by BMW. It clearly stated that Mini was included in this figure. However, mercesed never included Smart or Chrsler which operated seperately until now

”PERSONAL TOUCH IS A GOOD THING. BUT I GUESS WHEN YOU HAVE MEDIA OUTLETS LIKE THE NET, WHY NOT USE THEM?” Because they believe in effective communication to resolve problems, not publicise them – at least they are open and not in denial.

Re: Re: I still maintain... but i guess any further discussion on this matter will only result in a deadlock. 1 all.

THIS IS PURELY FROM A PROFESSIONAL POINT OF VIEW. Could you define “professional point of view in this context without data / facts ?

Re: Re: Professional equals work life. I am purely quoting Rudra's experience in dealing with Mercedes India. Data/facts here become non-existent.

Keep Revvin (TM)

Revvmaster

[Rtech]

The fact is, a company can offer whatever he wants in a car, be it the latest, never seen before gadgets. But in the end, they have to work. The customer has to be safisfied! This is obviously not the case for GTO and many others like him (forums dedicated to low DC quality issues are all over the web).

Saying that they are the first to offer gizmo's hence you should expect problems is NOT an excuse. If they don't know how to make it work, leave it off the car for the moment!

[Harrie]

Right said Rtech. What the heck reasons apart when i am paying upwards of 25L for my car, I expect it to work for my money's worth! Agreed I have always fantasized about owning a three pointed star but not anymore. I would rather buy the Accord V6. With the current accord we have the service bills hardly go beyond 4-5k at the most.

A previous gen Mercedes? Yes I would close my eyes and buy it with the knowledge that they are all but a tank. Present one? Nah... Not for me. I expect my cars to work for the money i put in them.

[ajmat]

Whooo boy – am enjoying this even if this is off-topic – Moderators – please feel free to stop me !

Originally Posted by ajmat
Rather than make a quote more quotes. Let me reply to the debate

Re-Re: What expertise and competency are we talking about here? Getting people trained at Inglostadt shouldn't be a problem for a company flush with funds like the Dabur group. The funda is simple. If Audi wants to catch up with Mercedes it needs dealers who have more than just competency and expertise... the ability to garner funds in the shortest possible time. Simple business strategy.

AM – So you mean Audi is too chicken to commit more funds and use other peoples money?

Re:Re: Why don't we do a check on this. CAR, your fav mag in May 2004 did a road test and were nothing short of stunned by its ability to give the E and 5, finally a tough fight. Our local BSM and OD had similar views.

AM- Tough fight but who was the winner ? I don’t recall BSM / OD comparing the E and the 5 other than passing comments – they did unfairly compare the V6 S class vs the V8 Audi A8 and V8 BMW 735 and come to conclusions – no one tested an S500. My favourite “ CAR” tested an S600 vs the 760 – guess who won !

Re: Re: You are again mistaking a European market approach for an Indian one. Raise your hands, those who with 55 lakhs and a sports car to buy... choose between a Merc or a Porsche in your garage………….., it isn't very different from the boxster. Are magazines wasting their time then pitting the Z4, Boxster, SLK and S2000 together for a showdown?

AM – Can we have a show of hands ! Have you driven them to understand that there is a difference? (I’ve driven a Boxster on track and an old SLK 230). If you look at the conclusion, the mags tend to state these are different horses for courses

Re: Re: Cheaper than an X5 3.0i right? But look at what value the X5 3.0D brings over the ML 270. 200 horses versus 160 respectively is just one of them.

AM - Is 40 bhp more + less space worth 10 lakhs more ? I rest my case


THIS IS PURELY FROM A PROFESSIONAL POINT OF VIEW. Could you define “professional point of view in this context without data / facts ?

Re: Re: Professional equals work life. I am purely quoting Rudra's experience in dealing with Mercedes India. Data/facts here become non-existent.

AM – Rudra – want to be a spectator or a gladiator ?

BTW – RM - nothing personal against you – if we meet – would gladly buy you a beer !

[RJK]

GTO,
Just one question. Whats making you keep the car inspite of all the troubles its giving you? You surely can't stick your policy of keeping it till it fall aparts 'coz by then half of your earnings would have gone in the C then

[GTO]

Revv and Ajmat,

Do you guys mind taking your related yet off-topic discussions to another thread?

Thanks

GTO

[GTO]

Just one question. Whats making you keep the car inspite of all the troubles its giving you? You surely can't stick your policy of keeping it till it fall aparts 'coz by then half of your earnings would have gone in the C then

A lawsuit! I dont tolerate bull**** in any area of my life. If you deliver a defective product/service to me, you better as hell make up for it. I have left my car with them for enough chances and they yet have not been able to set it right.

GTO

[RX135]

Originally Posted by Rtech

The fact is, a company can offer whatever he wants in a car, be it the latest, never seen before gadgets. But in the end, they have to work. The customer has to be safisfied! This is obviously not the case for GTO and many others like him (forums dedicated to low DC quality issues are all over the web).

I agree, but only partially. You dont improve unless you innovate. (Air bags were actually fatal in beginning). Reliability of electronic gadgets has always had a question mark. But, then not each and every Merc is falling apart. No one would have bought if even 20% were falling apart. But, the sales have actually risen (even in US). People are used to "perfect" Mercs, and can not tolerate anything less than that. Hence, so much of publicity with problematic Mercs. I am not being insensitive to GTO's car problems, but I would not form an opinion purely based on that.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by GTO

A lawsuit! I dont tolerate bull**** in any area of my life. If you deliver a defective product/service to me, you better as hell make up for it. I have left my car with them for enough chances and they yet have not been able to set it right.
GTO

I am curious, why dont you get that wretched car replaced with new one? Is DCIL refusing to do that? Going by car service history, I think, you deserve another car.