[GTO]

So, was DC (till late 80s). As electronics gadgets started sneaking in, quality started deteriorating.

many of the problems worldwide reported on Mercs are related to electronical components

LOL! Thats exactly my point! Mercedes quality worldwide has deteriorated plentiful in the past decade! Not each and every Merc is falling apart, but the number is significant for Mercedes quality to have become the worst nightmare this company has ever faced.

People read about many Fiat ASS disasters, but still buy it and are passionate about their cars.

Absolutely no comments required. Fiat Sales speak very well of how many people are purchasing this brands products.


You want to know what influenced my decision? Let me tell you that I am a thrice over repeat Mercedes owner. And while I am no self-proclaimed "expert" on cars, I do know enough to tell a good car from a bad one. Of Course, there was no Team-BHP when I bought my car but then how many easy to access resources were there? Magazines were the primary opinion makers and let me tell you that NOT ONE of them reported on the service costs or the quality deterioration. Only Overdrive mentioned the paltry interior quality of the new Mercedes and once put in a small section on the W124 versus the new E Class.

As the humorous fact around the globe goes - Chrysler appears to have taught Mercedes more than vice versa. Chrysler has actually been ranked higher in quality levels from some surveys than have Mercedes! What bigger slap in the face to the 3 pointed star! Forget what Mercedes used to be, forget learning from the Japanese.

It has had the pain of learning from what used to be a third grade American car maker. Brand loyalty loss and Brand dilution - Thats what they are doing now. You would wait 10 more years before ? Hello, wake up..its already 10 years upward since the first disastrous twin-eyed E-Class was launched.

What ground breaking innovations are we talking about in the last ten years? Are Mercedes owners driving god-damned rocket ships or family/luxury sedans? Ask any sane person what he/she prefers between the two in an automobile? Innovation or reliability. Car manufacturers have a responsibility - And that responsibility denotes providing a quality good when you ask for a premium price. The base of quality is reliability which Mercedes could not provide to its new owners.I am an extremely intolerant when it comes to incompetence. And reliability is something that even the new Tata Indicas give you. Its a basic expectation of any new automobile.

Let me also inform you that 3 other purchase decisions (in addition to khandelwals) have been deferred in what is Team-BHPs fastest growing thread (in terms of views) yet. If you want the member ids, I would happily PM them to you. Though that was not the intention of this thread, it was certainly to spread awareness.

RX, I am not the only one with a wretched Mercedes. Where I am different is in being loud about it.

Its just an endless expense - A white elephant, shall we say? Karl Benz must be turning in his grave.

GTO

[GTO]

Merve_Extreme, what can I say?

1. The new Mercedes surely need malfunction displays that are capable of showing brake failures. God bless that display!

2. Yes, we are absolutely agreeable on the electronic problems and the resultant unreliability.

3. Of course the problems are manufacturing related. That is the original point of this thread.

4. How come we missed including Fiat in the list that has Rover and Daewoo. Well, we'll leave that for another thread shall we?

5. My Mercedes was a brand new example that was manufactured in the same facility with the exact quality standards (or the lack of it) as the other models.

6. I agree that the new Mercs have more airbags than the latest Accords. But arent the airbags also electronically actuated? Boy, dont we love Mercedes electronics!

GTO

[RX135]

Originally Posted by GTO

Let me also inform you that 3 other purchase decisions (in addition to khandelwals) have been deferred in what is Team-BHPs fastest growing thread (in terms of views) yet. If you want the member ids, I would happily PM them to you. Though that was not the intention of this thread, it was certainly to spread awareness.

I would love to know what they end up buying. Merc Quality standards going down is well known fact. But, then how does one justify ever growing sales of Mercs in US (where they have many other resources available)? If all Mercs were of that bad quality, the sales would have taken hit long back, since we are talking about 10 years time backwards.

Since you asked, electronic braking system (on S class) and ESP were developed in last 10 years. I don't claim them to be earth shattering.

[Revvmaster]

Originally Posted by RX135

Since you asked, electronic braking system (on S class) and ESP were developed in last 10 years. I don't claim them to be earth shattering.

Since these are two innovations you like to talk about, let's look at the dark side of it.

The Sensotronic Braking System. Equals Failures. Equals 1.3 million cars recalled.

The ESP. Developed when a certain "baby" Merc failed the now infamous ELK Test. Luckily for them, it happened before the car went to sale. Unluckily for them, they lost sales, lost some cred and loads of tosh.

If these are the innovations that take centerstage in Mercedes, hell, i'd rather buy a G-wagon. Far too little electronics and pure simplicity. Probably the most reliable Merc as well.

Revv

[Harrie]

Right said Revv. What the use is all those high tech gadgetry if the car is not able to perform its most basic function which IMHO is "Getting from point A to B in comfort" and maybe add "In style" to it too.

[RX135]

Revv,

Failures is something that we are talking about here. And having failures does not discredit innovation. A-class crossed 1M mark in 6 years of inception. And tell me, which other company does so much of research and comes up with something new because it failed in ELK test?

There have been instances of cars being recalled by many manufacturers (including Japs), not just Merc. And as you may have read in this forum earlier, customers did not face any hassle in Merc's recalls programs.

If situation on quality is so bad, Merc should have been history in last 10-15 years, which it did not.

We seem to assume now that every second Merc is going to fall apart on road, because some Mercs have had problems and GTO's Merc is a disaster. Which certainly is not the case.

[GTO]

I would love to know what they end up buying.

I would love to know too, and will update once their purchases have been confirmed. But I can assure you that it is not going to have a three pointed star.

Merc Quality standards going down is well known fact. But, then how does one justify ever growing sales of Mercs in US (where they have many other resources available)?

Market dynamics are such that the product is only one component of success. Having that three pointed star on even substandard products is a huge advantage. Their marketing department is working stronger than ever. Another major factor is the expanding model range.

If you can tell me two innovations during the last decade, I can detail 10 during the days of the real Mercedes! How come reliability was not so much of an issue then?

Reliability has been lost not due to innovation, I mean what is the innovation in quality of plastics inside the car? As has been outlined before, its due to the $$$ factor.

GTO

[GTO]

We seem to assume now that every second Merc is going to fall apart on road, because some Mercs have had problems and GTO's Merc is a disaster. Which certainly is not the case.

Let me remind you that quality surveys are not made on GTO's merc alone. Consumer reports had about 2000 - 3000 cars as a sample before branding the Mercedes C, E and S Class as "Unreliable cars that you cannot count on".

GTO

[RX135]

Market dynamics are such that the product is only one component of success. Having that three pointed star on even substandard products is a huge advantage. Their marketing department is working stronger than ever. Another major factor is the expanding model range.

But do you think, cautious US and European customer would buy a substandard car at higher premium just because of name or marketing? I don't buy that.

If you can tell me two innovations during the last decade, I can detail 10 during the days of the real Mercedes! How come reliability was not so much of an issue then?

So can I. but they were mainly innovations on mechanical front. Not electronic.

Reliability has been lost not due to innovation, I mean what is the innovation in quality of plastics inside the car? As has been outlined before, its due to the $$$ factor.

Have no idea about what went wrong with plastics. Is it the same in new A, E C, S and M class cars?

[RX135]

How much of local content goes into Mercedes in India? Any info on that?

[GTO]

So can I. but they were mainly innovations on mechanical front. Not electronic.

LOL!! I can assure you that the real Mercedes had loads of electronic gadgetery - Traction control, airbag systems, fuel injection management systems etc

But do you think, cautious US and European customer would buy a substandard car at higher premium just because of name or marketing? I don't buy that.

Yes! Thats the beauty of a three pointed star. Also do some research from reliable sources and see how Mercedes is worried about its brand loyalty - primarily due to quality issues.

When I am paying a premium price for a car, I do not expect a risky science experiment!! Like mentioned before, I am not buying a space age rocket ship but a luxury sedan. Innovation in my car means nothing to me if it cannot be used.

GTO

[Revvmaster]

RX 135... u seem like someone who has a soft corner for Mercs... i appreciate that.

However i don't appreciate their unreliability. People all over the world, more so in lesser developed countries spend the better half of their life, saving up, before they buy that classy D-segment car.. ala Merc/BMW/Audi etc. So when you finally realise your dreams, only to have your car AC knock off in the first year, the electronics refuse to work, the engine refuses to crank.. .hell won't u feel cheated off your money. I don't know if u own a Merc, but if u do, would you love to live with a fear that says "Good morning RX135. Today which part of the car would you like should fail."

Mitsubishi have had recalls. The new gen Accord has had recalls. So have Toyotas. Yes Japs have had recalls as well. But do people really adore Japanese cars, baring a few, to the extent that they admire a brand like Mercedes? If this company has invented the car, done several innovations and steered the car towards what it is today, its goof ups will not be spared.

I am a BMW fan. And a major one. But if i am saving up today to buy one tomorrow, only to know then that the car has tons of problems... hell i would be disappointed but i sure wouldn't buy it. And if i bought it.. i'd definitely feel cheated. Its as good as your spouse whom you dedicate a lot to, cheat on you.

25 lakhs isn't a small amount. And at that price people really would like a car that is perfect. If that were so, Porsche would have topped JD Power surveys, but it isn't. Because people expect more out of it than it delivers. And we all know that Porsche delivers in tons.. yet it isn't enough to satisfy its clientele.

People still buy Mercedes because they love the brand for what it stood for. They have been dreamers and savers who finally have the ability to buy one. If every potential customer were to know about Merc's reliability issues, the company would have shut down. The fact that they don't (most of them) is what is keeping Daimler Chrysler alive.

And look at Mercedes... look at the lineup. They have an A, B, C, E, S, R, CLK, CL, CLS, SLK, SL, M, G class. To add to that, the Smart Four-Two, Four-Four and coupe/convertibles. Then there is Chrysler and its never ending lineup. Mercedes does innovate, but does it concentrate? Were it just to focus on a small but dedicated lineup, their problems would be a fourth of what they suffer today. Its also the same reasons why BMW has started suffering quality issues off-late. An expanding lineup.

I hope Mercedes and their upcoming generation cars really up the ante. Otherwise a day when a company like Toyota takes over Mercedes won't be far.

Revvmaster

[GTO]

How much of local content goes into Mercedes in India? Any info on that?

I dont care whether its 0 or a 100%. I am paying any less than other international counterparts and expect the same quality.

But then quality is a problem with Mercedes anywhere, isnt it?

GTO

[tsk1979]

GTO, have you ever though of going to consumer court with the repair documents and then demanding compensation from mercedes in lieu of your days in workshop and also asking them to double the warranty time since the car is defective. You definately have a case here.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by Revvmaster

I hope Mercedes and their upcoming generation cars really up the ante. Otherwise a day when a company like Toyota takes over Mercedes won't be far.

Yes, I do have soft corner for Mercs, for BMWs and Porsches. I do have it for all fine engineering that goes inside a German/European car. (And again, Honda's do make fine engines). It might change only if I own a Merc myself and get sc*** up like GTO.

I am sure, the D-day which you've forecasted for Merc is not in near future. And if that really happens, it will be saddest moment in car history (at least for me).

It would be great to revisit this thread after 5 years down the line and see which way things have progressed. DC has already pulled up their socks and have focussed back on quality. I'll still put my money on Mercs.