[joslicx]

Originally Posted by Fountainheader

The guy who buys a i20 Magna will get boot space and a fresher car. Maybe ICE and some irrelevant frills. So instead he'd go for the i10 Asta and for a lil more he'll get sunroof too! Voila! How is Hyundai going to address this issue ? Stop the i10 Asta ?

why should it be a problem for Hyundai so long its a Hyundai they manage to sell? i10 or i20 whatever the customer prefers They should be too happy to sell

[nithi]

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

Really? - lets see how they fared in the 6L+ segment

• Accent - good success (only competition at that time - ikon & corsa)
• Getz - failed miserably
• Verna Petrol - failed badly
• Verna Diesel - doing decent - no competition - lets wait what happens when Linea D & SX4 D gets launched
• Elantra - failed so bad - and they don't have a replacement yet
• Sonata - failed miserably

my friend, they are skating on thin ice here. Getz,Sonata are good cars. And you can be sure that i20 is going in that list as another good car failed due to overpricing.

IMO, Hyundai does'nt expect to sell i20 in large nos in India. They only plan to sell only 20K units in a year and that translates to only 1600 units a month. They will manage to achieve their target of 1600 units a month during the initial "Honey Moon" Period. And after an year or so, they'll give some discounts to maintain the figure. They don't care if we think it is overpriced or it will go the getz way. The car was designed and tested mainly for European market, where Hyundai will sell it happily at a very competitive price. But atleast in India, they could have put the kappa engine in the getz and priced it competitively. IMO, Hyundai, does'nt really care about Indian Market other than B segment.

Regards!

[Gangsta]

Originally Posted by aseem

Let me clarify, Accent during its day was selling at 6 lakhs ex showroom, there was no good competitor from Maruti (no SX4 or Dezire at the time) and Honda was expensive proposition. However as it became dated, and as competition increased they reduced the price of the car significantly. To the point its close to 5 lakhs now, however with better propositions in the market now, I really dont consider Ikon or Accent to be any good anymore. They are way past their prime and therefore I didnt include it in my list.

As far as Verna is concerned, it mainly sells because its Diesel. However it hasnt really set the sales chart ticking. The Accent during its day was much more popular in both Petrol and Diesel than Verna. Verna petrol is a dud, and diesel sells in ok numbers as MUL with SX4 or Honda City dont have a diesel in their lineup yet. With Linea launch and possibly SX4 diesel in the future, you would probably see even more dwindling sales for Verna.

Accent not to be good anymore? man check out the charts. they are still selling accent at a very good price as accent executive itself is a terrefic VFM pack for sedan.

Verna Petrol is not doing gr8 because of the fact that Verna D brought a revolutionary change in the performance of C-Class and Verna D itself killed Verna Petrol. Same with Accent CRDi, a revolutionary change in the diesel segment too. Even though the price is way too high for Verna D if compared to SX4 but still it will selling like a hot cake compared with SX4 in terms of number of sales.

Anyways, i don't wanna go offtopic... this verna, accent discussion ends here from my side. Cheers cheers:.

Originally Posted by vinayasurya

7% more weight or -9 bhp in maximum power doesn't matter much for the car buying public. If i20 can bring that premium feeling above its price, the normal car buyers are likely to overlook that -9 bhp engine or 7 % weight. Nobody is going to buy i20 to go race with Swift. May be i20 climb a slope 5 km/hr less than Swift but who cares. And those who care about engine more than anything else there is always the Palio 1.6 .

I really don't know why people are talking of Swift's engine again and again. Dingo Mingo guys, in city driving i20 will be better than swift because of the fact that Hyundai had revised the gear ratios. A normal customer wont buy i20 to race or something like that. The features Hyundai provided with slighly more price will surely overcome it's 1.2L engine. I had seen 100s of people around me who praise swift because of it's looks, and mainly it is a MARUTI and out of those 100s of people i found hardly 5-10% of them talks about "ACCELERATION" OR "PICKUP" not performance (performance includes not only drags) and hardly 2-4 people in my entire life, it's not percentage i'm talking about, it's the percentage who talks about it's performance. Enthusiasts are not included here who have a decent knowledge of handling, drags etc. etc.

Janta here will see if swift has 6X kg less weight and 9 odd bhp more? come on aseem mate, hyundai havnt launched it to beat the hell out of swift in terms of performance. they have introduced a much better with big list of features. Janta in India gets excited just like they went crazy when sx4 was launched.

Originally Posted by cruiser_1982

Ha ha, thats quite a list there. Hyundai consistent on overpricing cars and making them fail in the country where it is manufactured. By manufacturing the car in India, they have brough down the total cost of a vehicle, but this difference is passed on only to the overseas markets and not for India. What an irony Hyundai is confused on how to place their products in the Indian market(Premium product or mass product)

Originally Posted by SkyWalker

Really? - lets see how they fared in the 6L+ segment

• Accent - good success (only competition at that time - ikon & corsa)
• Getz - failed miserably
• Verna Petrol - failed badly
• Verna Diesel - doing decent - no competition - lets wait what happens when Linea D & SX4 D gets launched
• Elantra - failed so bad - and they don't have a replacement yet
• Sonata - failed miserably

my friend, they are skating on thin ice here. Getz,Sonata are good cars. And you can be sure that i20 is going in that list as another good car failed due to overpricing.

Here is a revised list SkyWalker mate.

• Accent - good success (only competition at that time - ikon & corsa)
• Getz - failed miserably (Price Factor ofcourse)
• Verna Petrol - failed badly (Not Because of the price but just because of the presence of Verna D)
• Verna Diesel - doing decent - no competition? - lets wait what happens when Linea D & SX4 D gets launched (Do you think Linea launch will harm Verna D sales because of the fact we all know janta is least interested in buying a palio because it is a Fiat and Fiat has one of the worst A.S.S here in india), SX4 Diesel will be a good one, main thing is "PRICE" and "ENGINE". so, too early to comment on this part.
• Elantra - failed so bad - and they don't have a replacement yet (Oh common gimme a break). it failed due to it's price? I think you really need to look out WHAT IS ELANTRA? Even though janta havnt bought it, it is a super VFM pack in it's class. I owns a CRDi one and done 45k till date and this car havnt asked for a single penny. Mileage Very good for it's 2L engine, Performance? 255nm good torque and it's gearbox is good enough to churn out this torque to it's wheels. ABS + BAS + TCS + EBD + AutoClimate Control + Airbags + Big Space and bla bla bla bla bla. In those days even Diesel was cheaper than Civic i guess and talking of the spare parts, ofcourse cheaper than civic and corolla. So, what else you need? lolz Janta don't like it's shape.
• Sonata - failed miserably - haha Honda is there for this class. People wants a Premium Badge in this class and Hyundai don't have one.

They have done good with santro, i10, accent, verna.. Killed by Price.. Getz.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by Gangsta

Accent not to be good anymore? man check out the charts. they are still selling accent at a very good price as accent executive itself is a terrefic VFM pack for sedan.

Verna Petrol is not doing gr8 because of the fact that Verna D brought a revolutionary change in the performance of C-Class and Verna D itself killed Verna Petrol. Same with Accent CRDi, a revolutionary change in the diesel segment too. Even though the price is way too high for Verna D if compared to SX4 but still it will selling like a hot cake compared with SX4 in terms of number of sales.

Anyways, i don't wanna go offtopic... this verna, accent discussion ends here from my side. Cheers cheers:.




I really don't know why people are talking of Swift's engine again and again. Dingo Mingo guys, in city driving i20 will be better than swift because of the fact that Hyundai had revised the gear ratios. A normal customer wont buy i20 to race or something like that. The features Hyundai provided with slighly more price will surely overcome it's 1.2L engine. I had seen 100s of people around me who praise swift because of it's looks, and mainly it is a MARUTI and out of those 100s of people i found hardly 5-10% of them talks about "ACCELERATION" OR "PICKUP" not performance (performance includes not only drags) and hardly 2-4 people in my entire life, it's not percentage i'm talking about, it's the percentage who talks about it's performance. Enthusiasts are not included here who have a decent knowledge of handling, drags etc. etc.

Janta here will see if swift has 6X kg less weight and 9 odd bhp more? come on aseem mate, hyundai havnt launched it to beat the hell out of swift in terms of performance. they have introduced a much better with big list of features. Janta in India gets excited just like they went crazy when sx4 was launched.





Here is a revised list SkyWalker mate.

• Accent - good success (only competition at that time - ikon & corsa)
• Getz - failed miserably (Price Factor ofcourse)
• Verna Petrol - failed badly (Not Because of the price but just because of the presence of Verna D)
• Verna Diesel - doing decent - no competition? - lets wait what happens when Linea D & SX4 D gets launched (Do you think Linea launch will harm Verna D sales because of the fact we all know janta is least interested in buying a palio because it is a Fiat and Fiat has one of the worst A.S.S here in india), SX4 Diesel will be a good one, main thing is "PRICE" and "ENGINE". so, too early to comment on this part.
• Elantra - failed so bad - and they don't have a replacement yet (Oh common gimme a break). it failed due to it's price? I think you really need to look out WHAT IS ELANTRA? Even though janta havnt bought it, it is a super VFM pack in it's class. I owns a CRDi one and done 45k till date and this car havnt asked for a single penny. Mileage Very good for it's 2L engine, Performance? 255nm good torque and it's gearbox is good enough to churn out this torque to it's wheels. ABS + BAS + TCS + EBD + AutoClimate Control + Airbags + Big Space and bla bla bla bla bla. In those days even Diesel was cheaper than Civic i guess and talking of the spare parts, ofcourse cheaper than civic and corolla. So, what else you need? lolz Janta don't like it's shape.
• Sonata - failed miserably - haha Honda is there for this class. People wants a Premium Badge in this class and Hyundai don't have one.

They have done good with santro, i10, accent, verna.. Killed by Price.. Getz.

Without going into too many details, here is a summary:

1) Accent is way past its prime and sells to a niche crowd who want low cost of running through CNG and a sedan and a low initial price. Nobody considers it a serious C segment sedan anymore. Its more like Indigo, Ikon competition now.

2) Verna Petrol didnt fail caz of Verna diesel. Its your presumtion, my view on this is, it failed caz it had competition from likes of City, SX4 and Fiesta in the segment.

3) Verna Deisel sells caz its the only Diesel in its class (C segment). Dezire has possibly taken away some customers, Linea Deisel too will take away some customers. The car looks a dud, handles like a dud, has low safety features and is exhorbitantly priced. The only saving grace is the engine. (Just my opinion and not meant to offend any Verna D owners)

4) Elantra failed worldwide with that model due to its odd looks even though it was a terrific VFM imo.

5) i20 however is far from vfm.

6) Gearing ratios argument is overrated imo. Why would you change gear to 3rd on 30kmph or 4th at 40kmph??? I guess those upgrading from M800 or Santro with low gearing ratios tend to do that. But most who have driven higher displacement petrol cars dont!

On NH8 I almost always change to 4th at 80 kmph. By that time I have had ample accerlation.

[raul]

Why are folks bending over backwards to justify why 80 bhp is good enough, folks who buy a slightly higher priced hatch are probably not looking for something that is good enough, they want more or else they would settle for something less, right?

A normal customer wont buy a car to race or something like that but then if that is the case why even have a discussion about bhp for any car other than a race car?

As the market evolves so does people's expectations and since this is not a cheap hatch there is little reason for it to be underpowered, at least the 1.4 should have been offered but now at 6.5 for the 1.2 the 1.4 would be 7 plus which is way too much for an i20. Of course some would pay that and more for the i20 as they post here, like folks here were justifying 8 lakhs for the Fabia on the feeble round of ill defined 'premiumness' but are they reflective of the market.

[SkyWalker]

@Gangsta - Sonata & Elantra - didn't complain they were overpriced. I just say they failed. Getz,i20&Verna CRDI are overpriced. Think i mentioned this in a previous message too.

Verna Petrol - sorry - cant buy your argument. Diesel sells coz its got a good engine and there's not much to compare to, but petrol is a dud in its class. There's no reason anyone would prefer it over a City, Fiesta or an SX4.

As for Linea D - game has moved on and Palio is a 7 year old car. Linea is a better looking, better featured and better built car than its competitors and comes at much less price. Verna D topend model costs 10L OTR and dont even have airbags!!! But knowing its a FIAT - anything can happen. Only time will tell

[bimi]

Originally Posted by aseem

4) Elantra failed worldwide with that model due to its odd looks even though it was a terrific VFM imo.

If i am right you have travelled to US and driven all type of cars - but then you did not realise that Elantra was the top most selling for Hyundai in US and worldwide. Its the Elantra which has given them confidence to put up a factory in the US. But now, its been discontinued.

Sorry folks for veering off the topic. It was only a feedback.

Back to i20 - How do you guys rate the i20 ad?

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by aseem

3) Verna Deisel sells caz its the only Diesel in its class (C segment). Dezire has possibly taken away some customers

Not possibly, but surely Dzire has taken away the Verna customers. See last month's sales figures - a combined sale of around 1000 units for Verna+Accent, and 6500 units for Dzire+SX4! Assuming a sale of 1000 units of SX4, 5500 units of Dzire is sold last month.

Because of recession factor? May be - people nowadays not willing to pay too much as premium, and settles with low-cost models with adequate features. Keeping that in mind, i20 will not have many takers from B-segment, but some C-segment buyers may settle with i20. Let's wait and see.

[manish7]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Not possibly, but surely Dzire has taken away the Verna customers. See last month's sales figures - a combined sale of around 1000 units for Verna+Accent, and 6500 units for Dzire+SX4! Assuming a sale of 1000 units of SX4, 5500 units of Dzire is sold last month.

Because of recession factor? May be - people nowadays not willing to pay too much as premium, and settles with low-cost models with adequate features. Keeping that in mind, i20 will not have many takers from B-segment, but some C-segment buyers may settle with i20. Let's wait and see.

Right, most of i20 buyers are the ones like me deciding between Sedan & premium hatchback. We want a good car, but we are still sensitive about high premium and cost of maintenance (so Fabia goes out). IMHO, the electric OVRMs, cooled glove-box and Music system are quite an overkill -- more of gimmics I'd say. I would rather put my own music system as per my taste and budget. Electric OVRMs are quite pain and take much more money to replace (most insurance companies doen't pay for them) when they are broken - which is quite common in city traffics and given nasty kids in parking lots of multiplexes and apartments.

I (and I think most of us) would have jumped at i20 under these two condtions -

(1) Current i20 Asta priced around 5.5L to 5.7L max on-road.
(2) Asta priced at 6.3L to 6.5L with 1.3 or 1.4 Diesel engine.

6.36 on-road for i20 Asta are way too high with just 1.2L petrol engine. Linea has shown that it is posssible to build excellent cars with competitive pricing! Linea quality is really awesome!

How I wish Palio SDX had more features, or GP coming soon in the market!! AMEN!

[S_budhiraj]

Guys It seems to be a hot discussion hapenning over here.

Well I do accept that people here don't take the cars for their Gear Ratios, Handling and Driveblility but the Brand Image, sales guys and those misleading comparo charts do.

(I myself had experienced so many times that people come at showrooms and believe what the sales guys says. The sales guy from Maruti would any day attract a buyer by saying it has more power and lesser price and Its a Maruti as well)

No matter Hyundai is second largest seller in India, it still cannot touch Maruti for its brand Image.

Everyone here accepts Hyundai overprices their cars.

I20 is the great product but its the Swift which is the Benchmark in the Country for these Big hatches, every person who wants to upgarde to the big hatch sees the swift as the target, every college going boy wants swift for flair in hatches and as for the features there are hardly any ZXI's as compared to Vxi's despite being terrifc VFM product.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Because of recession factor? May be - people nowadays not willing to pay too much as premium, and settles with low-cost models with adequate features. Keeping that in mind, i20 will not have many takers from B-segment, but some C-segment buyers may settle with i20. Let's wait and see.

Let me clarify: by low-cost model, I didn't mean that i20 is a VFM here. It's not at all a VFM. I was saying that Dzire eats into Verna share because of the current financial conditions. And such a scenario may benefit i20 - but only by the C-segment buyers, not from the B-segment buyers. That's all.

The takers of the i20 will be more of a confused buyer like:

1) whether to go for a low end C- segment car or a high end B segment car
2) whether to go for feature-rich C-segment car or feature-rich B segment car.

[joslicx]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Let me clarify: by low-cost model, I didn't mean that i20 is a VFM here. It's not at all a VFM. I was saying that Dzire eats into Verna share because of the current financial conditions. And such a scenario may benefit i20 - but only by the C-segment buyers, not from the B-segment buyers. That's all.

The takers of the i20 will be more of a confused buyer like:

1) whether to go for a low end C- segment car or a high end B segment car
2) whether to go for feature-rich C-segment car or feature-rich B segment car.

I think all C segment cars have even a bigger moster to fight for now - The Linea. Fiat has just priced it to kill all your Vernas and SX4s and Citys and Fiestas! City might still survive but others should be very very wary of Linea.
i20 is less of a challenge for them for now at least!!!

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by joslicx

I think all C segment cars have even a bigger moster to fight for now - The Linea. Fiat has just priced it to kill all your Vernas and SX4s and Citys and Fiestas! City might still survive but others should be very very wary of Linea.
i20 is less of a challenge for them for now at least!!!

Can you explain why i20 is less of a challenge by Linea?

I think i20 is among the cars that may be hit by Linea. Because even though both benefit from the novelty factor, Linea at around 6L - 6.8L gives stiff competition to i20 which comes around 5.7L - 6.5L.

[GTO]

Woohoo! Lots of action in here. Great discussion guys.

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

Let's see what we get extra in i20Asta over Swift VXi for the price difference of 1.5l

We have to realise this : How many customers are willing to pay a whopping 1.5 lakhs extra, even if the features (presumably) are worth it? An S-Class or Landcruiser may be worth every penny of the asking price, how many can stretch? Lower down the food chain, I see the Accord & the Altis as offering simply the best value. How many takers again?

Hell, a majority of the car buying junta even skimps on ABS to save 20,000 rupees! Note this is a life saving feature I am talking about. And you are talking of a lakh odd here? That is HUGE money in the hatchback segment.

Let's also not forget that you can get amongst the most competent diesel hatches like the Swift VDI & the Tata Vista for same / less money than the base i20.

However, my point was the car which won the segment was not having the biggest or the highest bhp engine.

True. Let's look at it this way then. How many big hatches with puny engines have been successful? Not the Indica 1.2 nor the Getz 1.1 nor the Palio 1.1? Of course, the Indica is best bought diesel while the Palio was a flop anyways. But a supposedly premium hatch surely deserves better than a 1.2 L engine shared with its sibling that costs 2 lakhs lesser.

They will add the 1.4l engine at some premium to i20 1.2 Asta, and make further models.

This is exactly my problem. The 1.2 is priced so damn high, what room have they possibly left for a 1.4? Or a potential best-seller diesel? 1.4 for 7 lakhs? Diesel for 8 lakhs? So long, i20!! If the 1.2 was priced better in the first place, I wouldn't even be typing this post.

BTW, I did check out the i20 last evening. In a nutshell, fabulous looking (as I have always insisted) and outstanding quality. The build & quality is stuff that the Swift can only dream about (the Fabia is better in outright quality though). However, the engine was a disappointment (in consideration of its so-called premium positioning). It may just about manage its job in the city. On the open road, it is a DUD! A BHPian commented in another thread of how a diesel Swift left him (in an i20) for dead at a 100 kph....I can see why. A premium hatch got to drive like one. And sadly, the puny engine stops it from performing like one. Does the Indian car buyer appreciate a premium car with a not-so-premium engine? Nope. Just ask Skoda Fabia 1.2.

True, but so did the sales of every competitor in that segment (unless it was too small to be useful for trends). There was general decline in car sales over months in that category

Incorrect assumption. Look at the sales charts, the Civic fell more than the overall segment. Again, I reiterate that the Civic had 15+ months of straight month-on-month decline. It had nothing to do with the segment for the first 8 - 10 months of lost sales. It was the price & the product. Only the last 4 -5 months of decline have been due to economic reason.

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

So, for the regular car buyer, what good is 120bhp in stop-go traffic of Bangalore, esp if it comes with a lag ? What he needs is low-end torque and driveability.

When he is paying a premium price, only a "satisfactory" rating is not enough. The key words that make something premium are "good" or "excellent". And Hyundai could have easily offered a bigger engine that gives far superior low-end torque, driveability & highway performance for the same money.

Originally Posted by gunbir

Sadly, every new non-Maruti launch is the feeding ground for bashers.

You have obviously missed the Indian car scene prior to making such large sweeping statements. It would help if you check out the overall response to the last Hyundai launch : The i10. I insist that it is the best small hatch you can buy for 4 odd lakhs in India today. And I have been equally critical of the Swifts lousy quality. About time that you let this unjustified opinion go.

Originally Posted by StarScream

GTO, we are veering off-topic.

Let me put it in a simpler way. Are Honda cars in India overpriced? Of course they are. Honda knows they can get away with charging a premium for their quality, durability, resale & brand value. In the same breath, I'd add that customers (myself included) have no problem paying the premium for the resultant peace-of-the-mind factor. There are obviously many, else so many Honda / Toyota products wouldn't have been stellar successes.

Do they have the right equipment for the price? You gotta be kidding me. Anyone who sees the standard fitment on the ANHC, Civic or Accord will know.

Originally Posted by joslicx

Should it matter if a car is percieved as "failed" ?

If it has actually failed, YES. Simply because 99% of flop models have terrible resale too. Forget FE & service costs, resale is the single largest cost of ownership for 9 out of 10 owners.

There is a thread on fabia in the experiences section and most people who own one are happy with it!

That argument doesn't count for peanuts. Grand Vitara owners as well as Ford Fusion owners are an incredibly happy lot too. They will still have to suffer in terms of resale, parts availability etc. What's the point?

Originally Posted by nithi

IMO, Hyundai does'nt expect to sell i20 in large nos in India.

And after an year or so, they'll give some discounts to maintain the figure.

They don't care if we think it is overpriced or it will go the getz way. The car was designed and tested mainly for European market, where Hyundai will sell it happily at a very competitive price.

IMHO, it is Nithi who has hit the nail on the head, and not us. Hyundai could care less if the i20 flops in India. As a production center for the i20, Hyundai will be able to make the car at a competitive rate and export it to more profitable markets.

Originally Posted by raul

Why are folks bending over backwards to justify why 80 bhp is good enough, folks who buy a slightly higher priced hatch are probably not looking for something that is good enough, they want more or else they would settle for something less, right?

Spot on! A premium car is supposed to be premium in every way. That is the most basic requirement of a premium car.

like folks here were justifying 8 lakhs for the Fabia on the feeble round of ill defined 'premiumness' but are they reflective of the market.

Now that you mention it, I recollect having exactly the same discussion at the time of the Fabia launch. We all know how that panned out. My predictions:

- Once the new launch dust settles down, the i20 will become a market dud.

- Hyundai will offer massive discounts to meet local sales targets. This is when existing owners will suffer on account of resale.

- Hopefully, Hyundai corrects its prices and launches a super diesel / bigger petrol for a reasonable asking price.

[lancer_rit]

Originally Posted by GTO

Woohoo! Lots of action in here. Great discussion guys.

We have to realise this : How many customers are willing to pay a whopping 1.5 lakhs extra, even if the features (presumably) are worth it? An S-Class or Landcruiser may be worth every penny of the asking price, how many can stretch? Lower down the food chain, I see the Accord & the Altis as offering simply the best value. How many takers again?

I just wanted to highlight that i20 Asta is the highest spec model, and it should be compared to Swift ZXi, its highest model. If Swift VXi has to be compared, the right one to be compared is i20 Magna.
At ex-showroom level, ZXI -> Asta has a premium of 50+k.
I would have preferred if Hyundai launched more than 2 models, so that customer wouldn't be forced to settle for base version, or highest option at a high price.

Originally Posted by GTO

Hell, a majority of the car buying junta even skimps on ABS to save 20,000 rupees! Note this is a life saving feature I am talking about. And you are talking of a lakh odd here? That is HUGE money in the hatchback segment.

Agreed. I am all for safety features being standard. That's why i posted on the Linea thread, that I was disappointed that Fiat only offers Airbags as an option on the highest variant ? Making it a truly optional and premium need :-( Other than that, the Linea pricing is brilliant (though the detuned 1.4l engine may have some of the same issues which i20 1.2l has)
If i20 Asta high-end variant was not launched, a lot of people (bhpians included) would heavily criticize the lack of this feature and that (as borne in new car launch threads ...). So they did good to launch a fully loaded version. They needed to provide more variants though!

Originally Posted by GTO

Let's also not forget that you can get amongst the most competent diesel hatches like the Swift VDI & the Tata Vista for same / less money than the base i20.

Swift VDI is formidable. Maruti does not launch a Swift ZDI so that Dezire sales are not cannibalized. Tata Vista should also be a hot seller, but somehow, not taken off as expected. i20 does have a tough job against Swift ...

Originally Posted by GTO

True. Let's look at it this way then. How many big hatches with puny engines have been successful? Not the Indica 1.2 nor the Getz 1.1 nor the Palio 1.1? Of course, the Indica is best bought diesel while the Palio was a flop anyways. But a supposedly premium hatch surely deserves better than a 1.2 L engine shared with its sibling that costs 2 lakhs lesser.

You are right, the above cars didn't succeed. So, having a small engined car for exploiting excise benefits, does not by itself make it a success either :-)
BTW, i10 Kappa (1.2l) Magna engine variants are pretty expensive - just 1l lower than i20 Magna.

Originally Posted by GTO

This is exactly my problem. The 1.2 is priced so damn high, what room have they possibly left for a 1.4? Or a potential best-seller diesel? 1.4 for 7 lakhs? Diesel for 8 lakhs? So long, i20!! If the 1.2 was priced better in the first place, I wouldn't even be typing this post.

Well, Hyundai did do certain adjustments in i10 when Kappa was launched. As an example, let's see what maybe possible (ex-showroom).

i20 Magna -> i20 A & B
i20 A = i20 Magna - 40k (more or less bare)
i20 B = i20 Magna
i20Asta -> i20X & i20Y
i20X -> i20Asta - 30k (less features)
i20Y -> i20Asta7

Now i20X -> i20X 1.4l (+60k) i.e. i20Asta + 30k
i20Y -> i20Y 1.4l (+60k) i.e. i20Asta + 60k

Above is just illustrative based on what they did for i10!
Or just go for 1.4CRDI. For (say) 60-80k factoring in excise benefits, they maybe able to launch diesel variants.

Originally Posted by GTO

Incorrect assumption. Look at the sales charts, the Civic fell more than the overall segment. Again, I reiterate that the Civic had 15+ months of straight month-on-month decline. It had nothing to do with the segment for the first 8 - 10 months of lost sales. It was the price & the product. Only the last 4 -5 months of decline have been due to economic reason.

I get what you are saying about the 15 month declining trend of Civic sales. This is true. OTOH, Civic still was the best seller in its segment (albeit with significantly lower numbers probably reflecting lesser value to potential buyers) till Altis was launched. In the initial 1 year or so, it clocked 1000+ sales which was probably only due to the product redefining the segment though prices were with Honda premium - later on the sales reduced a lot as novelty wore off, and demand corrected. Like I mentioned, it still was the bestseller in the segment which means it outperformed competition.

Originally Posted by GTO

IMHO, it is Nithi who has hit the nail on the head, and not us. Hyundai could care less if the i20 flops in India. As a production center for the i20, Hyundai will be able to make the car at a competitive rate and export it to more profitable markets.

Spot on! A premium car is supposed to be premium in every way. That is the most basic requirement of a premium car.

That is true. i10 is for the masses, and i20 is positioned to be a premium hatch segment from Hyundai.
IMO, what is 'premium' itself is relative, and I see every 'premium' car manufacturer providing a range of engine options, the lowest of which can't be called 'premium' in the way we discuss here. So, Hyundai is doing what everybody else also does! They should launch additional engine options, yes.
But let's say we take the 'premium alround' definition, then would i20Asta with 1.4l engine at current price have been a good offering in your view ? Would that be the right 'premium' positioning for i20 from Hyundai ?