[deepclutch]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Either way, it looks good , but my question is , will it last? For ex, its wheel bearings are rated for 75kmph or so. If you drive it any faster, they will wear out pretty soon.

72kmph daily and nano's wheel bearings are off?I thought 70-80 are average speeds of cars driven in india irrelevent of whether the roads are good or not. :|

[srishiva]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

If you want to ride the emissions high horse, the nano'e emissions are supposed to be less than that of a two wheeler, ?

Supposed to be. The whole world is repeating this statement. What two wheeler are they talking? The earlier two stroke two wheelers? or the autos? This is just a start. Wait when they come out with the diesel.

[greenhorn]

Yes, whether the emissions are less remains to be seen. Tata has followed up on his promises so far on the nano.

Regarding the diesel, well, It isnt all that bad ...
Every_Miles_A_Memory
especially considering that this is not going to be a clattery old school diesel, rather a modern bosch turbocharged crdi unit...

[pulsar56]

Whatever bashing the Nano gets, my dad just updated me that he has booked one and I am having my fingers crossed to get one alloted in the draw! It is a great car to drive around in the city! (Next time, I don't have to drive almost 1000 KMs to have a car in my hometown to drive around! )

Happened to feel one at Chroma yesterday and I can say, I am impressed!

[YC.BALENO.CHD]

Originally Posted by greenhorn

especially considering the fact that the m800 and the omni which you speak highly of do not meet BS IV norms and will be phased out. What will families buy then ?

1) I never brought an Omni for comparison with the Nano and neither did I ever spoke highly of it nor I guess i will ever have to.

2) I never talked about emmission problems of the Nano, I just pointed out that to achieve a cleaner engine Suzuki did so without really having to cut costs or power or both for its Kb10 unit. And that is how a cleaner car should be made, not by making it lighter, giving it tyres that wont last 15k, and restricting the engine's power, just to add to the mileage figures or make it cleaner.

3) Let us not talk about what is going to happen in future, its been ages since Maruti is repeating the lines and its nothing new, so its still to be seen it Maruti really discontinues the 800.
As for meeting the emmission norms, its not a tough task to do, Remember alto and 800 have the same base motor, former being a 4 valve/cyl iteration of the latter's unit. And alto will be meeting BS4 in any case, the same 3 cyl engine had been on sale in many markets and some European country also was offering Subsidy on buying an alto with that engine because it was one of the cleanest cars with gasoline engines on the roads of that country. (sorry can't remember what country it was, I guess it was Switzerland but am not sure).


And even if Maruti really decides to discontinue with the 800, the alto std. is just 10-15K Rs. costlier, and people won't mind going for it. While Nano will still be bought by people who need a SECOND car for CITY USE and those who deserately need a car but wont go on the USED CAR way.



Regards.

[shortbread]

YcBaleno,

• Buying a second hand car is a lot cheaper than buying a new one, For 1 lac you can buy a second hand 800, for 2 lacs a second hand WagonR, for 3 lacs an Ikon, so tell who's lapping up all the new cars from the showrooms then??? Its futile to debate whats better, a new Swift or a second hand Honda City. I thought i already mentioned this point.
• The first preference of most Indians especially first time car buyers is to buy a new car, the very reason one is seeing the mad rush for booking forms. I'm not saying that for the same money a person buys any new car he cant get something better second hand. The pride and satisfaction a person haves in taking delivery of a brand new car from the showroom far outweighs the perceived vfm factor in a second hand car. Otherwise all these people would have opted for second hand 800/Altos/Ominis. No they wanted a new car and Tata gave them one.
• This is the most affordable car for the said two wheeling families. The step from a 50k bike/scooter to a 1.9 lac 800 is a whole, whole lot dearer than from 50k to 1.3 lacs. Yes its still a long way off but its the best shot any car maker has given them. Maruti couldn't and wouldn't do this despite being in the trade for 3 decades.
• As to how they will afford a new car now, well now the Nano has made it a whole lot easier by taking of a whopping Rs.1000 of the monthly installments if they had to opt for a 800, what was till now the cheapest car in the market. For reference consult earlier post.
• We Indians have the uncanny talent of making the most of what we have, whether its fitting a whole family into a two wheeler or juicing the maximum power out of a 1.3 Esteem. We ply on the highways with scooters seating 5, overloaded autorickshaws, Trucks carrying four times their payload, in this scenario the Nano will do Prretty well whether its to do your shopping or carry a family on the highway.
• The 800 might 'look' much more safer to you but the fact is its not, the car has the weakest A,B & C pillars in the business and would not pass any modern crash test bar the ones the Indian Govt. has in place. One cant blame the 800 because it was designed in the mid 80s, but its the Govt. fault in their ignorant and partial attitude allowing Maruti to juice as much money as it can from the model.
• The last car I will want to do 100 km/h will be the 800 let alone 140km/h.
• Do you seriously think us clever bhpians (like you said) cant find a solution for installing a sun visor on our own!!!
• The 800 has two discs in the front and more boot space, like i said before I shouldn't be surprised as it costs 60k more. None of the test drive reports have come back saying that the Nanos brakes are inadequate, but yes having two discs in the front will only make it better. What about the fact that the Nano has far more passenger space than the 800 or even the Alto, I don't see you mentioning that fact. That in itself is a major plus. Let me stress on another important factor that it still a safer car than the 800. Oh yes even you cant deny the fact that the Nano is a far better looking car than the 800. All this and its still 60k cheaper than the 800 (Im luvin this )
• All companies make a hype about their products, its called business, whether its toothpaste, atta or cars. Honestly there has been far better marketing efforts from two wheeler companies than what Tata has done with the Nano. I haven't seen a TV ad for the Tata Nano yet, have you??? As far as the media is concerned, if they decided to make Nano their headlines (a round of applause for mamta aunty), well sod it, why blame Tata for that.
• There are lots of pictures and videos on the net showing the Nanos engine, trust me nobody's hiding it from you YcBaleno.
• Let me reiterate the fact again that Tata is not a charitable institution, they make cars, try and cut costs, market them and sell them, because they are in the business of selling cars. If someday a NGO decides to make a new car at 70k so that you can buy it on the road for 1 Lac, puts in a 100 bhp engine so that you can clock a quarter mile in less than 10, gives better mileage and cheaper running costs than Bunty's papa's chetak, comes with all round airbags, 500 litre boot space, till then mate the best thing you have is a Nano. Oh yes the NGO should be shush about it and not tell anyone so that there is no hype.
• The AStar's K12M, brilliant engine, let me know when they pop it in the 800 and sell it for 1 lac!!
• One thing we both agree on YcBaleno, is that it will make a nice little second car as well.

[YC.BALENO.CHD]

[*]Buying a second hand car is a lot cheaper than buying a new one, For 1 lac you can buy a second hand 800, for 2 lacs a second hand WagonR, for 3 lacs an Ikon, so tell who's lapping up all the new cars from the showrooms then??? Its futile to debate whats better, a new Swift or a second hand Honda City. I thought i already mentioned this point.

Agreed. What I said was that the section who deperately wanted a CAR always had the used cars for them. Those who wanted a New CAR, were those who did not desperately needed a CAR (used or new) so for them Nano is a good/only buy.

[*]The first preference of most Indians especially first time car buyers is to buy a new car, the very reason one is seeing the mad rush for booking forms. I'm not saying that for the same money a person buys any new car he cant get something better second hand. The pride and satisfaction a person haves in taking delivery of a brand new car from the showroom far outweighs the perceived vfm factor in a second hand car. Otherwise all these people would have opted for second hand 800/Altos/Ominis. No they wanted a new car and Tata gave them one.


Again agree to almost all. However, the mad rush for the booking can only be attributed to the hype that surrounds the product and not all those who are booking the car, are the people who were dying to get a new car since ages. Let the hype die down and regular production begin, the mad rush will die for sure.

[*]This is the most affordable car for the said two wheeling families. The step from a 50k bike/scooter to a 1.9 lac 800 is a whole, whole lot dearer than from 50k to 1.3 lacs. Yes its still a long way off but its the best shot any car maker has given them. Maruti couldn't and wouldn't do this despite being in the trade for 3 decades.


again agreed, but for a guy who cant possibly afford a 1.9 lakh rs. car, there are not many chances he'l be able to buy one for 1.4 lakhs.
Also, considering that some part of the mentioned section would had very well gone for a used car if they really NEEDED a car, and I am stressing on the NEED part because IF need arises people do sacrifice the pleasure of a NEW CAR and buy an old one to meet the needs.
So this is what Nano will be addressing to, and I had mentioned it in my first post itself, that the only first time car buyers who'l be buying the Nano will be those who had 1.3 lakhs but did not wanted a used car.

[*]As to how they will afford a new car now, well now the Nano has made it a whole lot easier by taking of a whopping Rs.1000 of the monthly installments if they had to opt for a 800, what was till now the cheapest car in the market. For reference consult earlier post.


I have gone thru the calculations, but If am not wrong, 800 is still available for the an EMI of 2699 as compared to NANO's approx 2500rs, ofcourse for a longer tenure, so that way, it wont be that difficult.

[*]We Indians have the uncanny talent of making the most of what we have, whether its fitting a whole family into a two wheeler or juicing the maximum power out of a 1.3 Esteem. We ply on the highways with scooters seating 5, overloaded autorickshaws, Trucks carrying four times their payload, in this scenario the Nano will do Prretty well whether its to do your shopping or carry a family on the highway.

Now this is an excuse, am really sorry to say, if you think that if some of us are foolish enough to do the above mentioned things and that justifies the lack of highway capability of the Nano, its time you acknowledge the drawback. Sorry for being rude.
[*]The 800 might 'look' much more safer to you but the fact is its not, the car has the weakest A,B & C pillars in the business and would not pass any modern crash test bar the ones the Indian Govt. has in place. One cant blame the 800 because it was designed in the mid 80s, but its the Govt. fault in their ignorant and partial attitude allowing Maruti to juice as much money as it can from the model.

Agreed but to half of it. Yes, the basic structure of 800 is old and dated and in time of a crash it will be worse than a Nano, but what about the active safety? The brakes of the nano are inadequate and talking of the press/journos you may be surprised that OVERDRIVE found the servo assisted brakes in top models more worrying than the base model, and they did felt the brakes to be quite less than adequate.
[*]The last car I will want to do 100 km/h will be the 800 let alone 140km/h.

Now again to make things look prettier for nano you just reffered to half of my earlier post. Agreed, 100km/hr is not very safe in 800, what about the accleration? Its you who talked about the highway adventures of Nano, do you think a 60-100 timing of around 26 seconds is adequate? As compared to 800's 13 seconds its exactly double of it.
Further talking about 140kmph top speed of 800, a baleno manages a top whack of about 180kmph, how many balenos you ever see doing that kind of speeds often? Its not that one needs to accelerate that fast or be as fast, its just that one knows that if need arises, one can accelerate faster and touch a higher speed than he normally does because his car is capable of doing so, same can't be said for the nano.
[*]Do you seriously think us clever bhpians (like you said) cant find a solution for installing a sun visor on our own!!!


Again, that is an excuse. Ofcourse, there is a solution to almost anything, you are scared of 800's safety at 100kmph, which isn't unusual, being a Bhpian, have you or any of us installed servo assisted brakes on the 800, when its easily possible and not expensive as well.

[*]The 800 has two discs in the front and more boot space, like i said before I shouldn't be surprised as it costs 60k more. None of the test drive reports have come back saying that the Nanos brakes are inadequate, but yes having two discs in the front will only make it better. What about the fact that the Nano has far more passenger space than the 800 or even the Alto, I don't see you mentioning that fact. That in itself is a major plus. Let me stress on another important factor that it still a safer car than the 800. Oh yes even you cant deny the fact that the Nano is a far better looking car than the 800. All this and its still 60k cheaper than the 800 (Im luvin this )


Yes, nano does have more passenger space, but with no boot space, do you think it will go on any long trips? Unless the luggage follows in another nano I guess it wont be very comfortable, and as long as its not going to be used for long trips, who will actually need that wee bit extra headroom and little more legroom at rear for short city rides? Further, its not just the boot, you don't even have a simple glovebox, fancy carrying the documents in the door pockets or keeping them in the boot.
As for looks, its subjective issue and I for one belong to the group that hate cars with unusally tall stance and in your face styling.
[*]All companies make a hype about their products, its called business, whether its toothpaste, atta or cars. Honestly there has been far better marketing efforts from two wheeler companies than what Tata has done with the Nano. I haven't seen a TV ad for the Tata Nano yet, have you??? As far as the media is concerned, if they decided to make Nano their headlines (a round of applause for mamta aunty), well sod it, why blame Tata for that.

now you are talking, yes, thru Nano, Mr.tata is just trying to create excitement in the market and making them believe that nano is a miracle and that its a revolutionary product, and we have many of us being trapped for it, like it happens when a two wheeler manufacturer gives adds about 150kmpl from 100cc bikes, Nano being a bit more large scale, Hence, my calling it a humbug.
As for the tv add, It has already got enough publicity on TV as well, so might be TATA had cut costs here as well.
My Poor Jokes apart, what you have to say on the full page coloured adds in the newspapers? Heck, even my local departmental, medical and stationery store are sporting advertisements for nano, and selling booking form!! Now, is it anything less that a TV comercial?
[*]There are lots of pictures and videos on the net showing the Nanos engine, trust me nobody's hiding it from you YcBaleno.

unfortunately there are none of them of the time, major publications were test driving the car, not to mention they were briefed about not mentioning much about the short comings.
[*]Let me reiterate the fact again that Tata is not a charitable institution, they make cars, try and cut costs, market them and sell them, because they are in the business of selling cars. If someday a NGO decides to make a new car at 70k so that you can buy it on the road for 1 Lac, puts in a 100 bhp engine so that you can clock a quarter mile in less than 10, gives better mileage and cheaper running costs than Bunty's papa's chetak, comes with all round airbags, 500 litre boot space, till then mate the best thing you have is a Nano. Oh yes the NGO should be shush about it and not tell anyone so that there is no hype.

To make it simpler, nano would had been revolutionary IF it had better brakes, basic features like glovebox and sun visors in base model, if it was as quick or a little less quicker than the 800, had a reasonable luggage space to go with that passenger space, and would had still retailed for a price of about 1 lakh (ex-anything) and that would had been revolutionary.
[*]The AStar's Kb10. . (splash has K12), brilliant engine, let me know when they pop it in the 800 and sell it for 1 lac!!

They do not need to, 800 is dated beyond doubts but still capable to give tough times to an overhyped and grossly under-developed car like nano in the long run.
And what will you like to say about the mass cost cutting tata has employed? The tyres wont last above 15-20k for sake of economy, you have only three nuts in the wheel!!! and the reason tata gives that it will be easier to change the wheel in case of puncture!!!
[*]One thing we both agree on YcBaleno, is that it will make a nice little second car as well.

Yes, no second thoughts about that,[/list]

[YC.BALENO.CHD]

This is one aspect we had not been discussing in this thread lately.


Tata Nano Lx- Rs.1,80,000 (approx) Delhi
Maruti 800 Ac-Rs.2,00,000 - 15000(disc.) = Rs.1,85,000 (approx) Delhi.


Both the cars have aircon, Nano has front power windows.

Now add Rs.8000 for power windows with Central Locking (autocop) and maruti 800 Ac costs around 1,90,000 (showroom)


Now for the difference:

Maruti 800 advantage:

Bigger wheels and wider tyres,
More than three times larger the Boot space,
Auto Levelling Front Headlamps
Disc Brakes upfront
Better stability due to larger wheel base and lower C of G
Better Performance.
Better After-sales Support
Cheaper Spares
Easier to access Boot And Engine
Proven Reliability
Twin Wipers
Glove box
Sun Visors


Nano Advantage

Body Coloured Bumpers
Tad Higher Fuel Economy
Better Crash Safety
Tad more space at rear, more headroom but an average Indian Measures around 5'7'' and so he will be as comfortable in an 800 as well.



While LHS ORVM for 800 costs Rs.40, the provision for fitting the same is not available for Nano, plus Getting the bumper painted costs. a mere Rs.1000 for the 800.
While one may install any sound system in an 800, music lovers will be dissapointed in the Nano as no arrangement has been made to accomodate the same.

Nano is a 4 door while 800 is a 5 door.
Further the front seats have been scluptured in a unique way in nano which allows for knee reccess for the rear passengers. However, in a rear end collision crash test it was found that the same was a big disadvantage for the safety of rear passengers.

So, net difference results into a mere Rs.15000 (approx). Still think nano is VFM and revolutionary?

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

2) I never talked about emmission problems of the Nano, I just pointed out that to achieve a cleaner engine Suzuki did so without really having to cut costs or power or both for its Kb10 unit. And that is how a cleaner car should be made, not by making it lighter, giving it tyres that wont last 15k, and restricting the engine's power, just to add to the mileage figures or make it cleaner.

but by selling the car at twice the price of the nano, its obvious which market segment they plan to cater to. The emissions of the nano are just a consequence of its relatively modern design. I doubt if any of the cost cutting associated with it was done with a view for emission reductions.

That said, anyone can make a cleaner engine given a bigger budget. given a bigger budget, one could probably design an even cleaner engine. But thats not the point here. The point is that this 1 lakh car will have emissions less than more expensive cars , as well as less expensive bikes.

3) Let us not talk about what is going to happen in future, its been ages since Maruti is repeating the lines and its nothing new, so its still to be seen it Maruti really discontinues the 800.
As for meeting the emmission norms, its not a tough task to do, Remember alto and 800 have the same base motor, former being a 4 valve/cyl iteration of the latter's unit. And alto will be meeting BS4 in any case, the same 3 cyl engine had been on sale in many markets and some European country also was offering Subsidy on buying an alto with that engine because it was one of the cleanest cars with gasoline engines on the roads of that country. (sorry can't remember what country it was, I guess it was Switzerland but am not sure).

maruti could have introduced the newer head on the 800 and the kept the 1.1l engine in the alto, but they would rather sell us the more expensive cars if one wanted a better engine. having the same block is one thing, but does maruti offer it to you ?

[sanagg1]

I am sorry to point out
a)15000 deducted for disc brake again shown advantage for M800
b) No score for design and looks ?

P.S A very thought provoking discussion thanks alot for both YCBaleno and shorbread amd not to forget greenhorns etc.

[musicmanaman]

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

This is one aspect we had not been discussing in this thread lately.


Tata Nano Lx- Rs.1,80,000 (approx) Delhi
Maruti 800 Ac-Rs.2,00,000 - 15000(disc.) = Rs.1,85,000 (approx) Delhi.


Both the cars have aircon, Nano has front power windows.

Now add Rs.8000 for power windows with Central Locking (autocop) and maruti 800 Ac costs around 1,90,000 (showroom)


Now for the difference:

Maruti 800 advantage:

Bigger wheels and wider tyres,
More than three times larger the Boot space,
Auto Levelling Front Headlamps
Disc Brakes upfront
Better stability due to larger wheel base and lower C of G
Better Performance.
Better After-sales Support
Cheaper Spares
Easier to access Boot And Engine
Proven Reliability
Twin Wipers
Glove box
Sun Visors


Nano Advantage

Body Coloured Bumpers
Tad Higher Fuel Economy
Better Crash Safety
Tad more space at rear, more headroom but an average Indian Measures around 5'7'' and so he will be as comfortable in an 800 as well.



While LHS ORVM for 800 costs Rs.40, the provision for fitting the same is not available for Nano, plus Getting the bumper painted costs. a mere Rs.1000 for the 800.
While one may install any sound system in an 800, music lovers will be dissapointed in the Nano as no arrangement has been made to accomodate the same.

Nano is a 4 door while 800 is a 5 door.
Further the front seats have been scluptured in a unique way in nano which allows for knee reccess for the rear passengers. However, in a rear end collision crash test it was found that the same was a big disadvantage for the safety of rear passengers.

So, net difference results into a mere Rs.15000 (approx). Still think nano is VFM and revolutionary?

The space inside the Nano is a whole lot more compared to the M800, Nano is easier to get in and out as well, and feels much bigger on the inside even when compared to cars in higher segment. Space and sitting comfort wise Nano is miles ahead of the M800, however that is the only area where it is ahead, according to me.

[muni]

@greenhorn: I know you own a Tata Product and also understand you try to play the devils' advocate for Tata. A bit too much like Karan Thapar . My personal experience having swift zxi and vista quadra in our family is that the Vista is better in terms of quality as a whole, space, comfort and VFM. Better does not mean that it does not have problems does it . I dont think you are a Tata basher and lets stop on this here.

Coming to the topic, Maruti 800 has seen the daylight for quite some time and let us give it some rest. Dont build a case so much for the 800 so that the maruti guys get serious and continue selling this old wine for another decade or so.

Nano deserves the hype it is getting and over time, when people start owning them, all the issues that are being discussed will have some meaning i.e, positive or negative.

One thing you guys should not forget is that they have an excellent looking car with oodles of space. Going forward, the car will have a diesel engine and if things go right they might give you more safety features with an economical price.

It will EVOLVE and lets give it some time.

[tifosikrishna]

There's been discussion going on about the availability of good second-hand cars at the NANO price point, however one issue that's been overlooked is the hassle of buying a second-hand car because of absence/negligible presence of organized market to cater to the demands of majority of second-hand car buyer.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a second hand car from a unknown seller because I am not sure of its value, however good it may appear. You are not sure about the odo reading/service records/previous history (read accidents) and the list can go on and on...

Hence, I would say that availability of pre-owned cars at 1 to 1.5 lakh price point will not be a major deterrent for target segment of NANO buyers.

regards
tifosi.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by tifosikrishna

Hence, I would say that availability of pre-owned cars at 1 to 1.5 lakh price point will not be a major deterrent for target segment of NANO buyers.

To add to it, 1.5L is only initial cost involved. Any higher segment car would be much more expensive to maintain and run. You may get a 12 year old Mercedes for 4 Lakh, but it will still be expensive to run and maintain than any other new car costing 4L.

[YC.BALENO.CHD]

Originally Posted by sanagg1

I am sorry to point out
a)15000 deducted for disc brake again shown advantage for M800
b) No score for design and looks ?

P.S A very thought provoking discussion thanks alot for both YCBaleno and shorbread amd not to forget greenhorns etc.

Actually let me clarify the point, it wasnt the disc brakes i was mentioning, from 'disc' i meant discounts. Sorry for the confusion.

The space inside the Nano is a whole lot more compared to the M800, Nano is easier to get in and out as well, and feels much bigger on the inside even when compared to cars in higher segment. Space and sitting comfort wise Nano is miles ahead of the M800, however that is the only area where it is ahead, according to me.

Yes, I had earlier as well acknowledged this plus point of nano, as for ingress and all, its definately better, but what will anyone do of that little more space at rear when he won't be able to travel alot in that car due to a under-powered engine and the absence of a boot. However, a plus point is a plus point, and no doubt nano has an upper hand in terms of passenger space, and this is the only major thing going for the Nano.

Regards.