[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by GordonGekko

Why are you so hurt. Define relaible...because it leaves a lot of scope for definition. Since you seem to be the authority on this issue..please do.

Hurt ? No. Just surprised by your casual acceptance of issues in new cars.

Reliable - as in not breaking down and doing the functions expected of it without any issues. Good enough ?

Originally Posted by GordonGekko

What you get is what you pay. All cars are not built the same. No one is stupid enough to assume that you'd get the same quality in a $5000 car and a $50000 car,

Quality of materials, build, features, yes. I agree that these get better (usually) as you pay more. No issues with that. But is reliable-functioning also based on the cost of the car ? You pay 5L, you get cheaper interiors than a 10L car. Fine. But is it OK for the 5L car to break-down or require extensive repairs in the first few years ? No.

Originally Posted by GordonGekko

I think you have a well-maintained baleno, hence you are seeing things differently as these cars are great value for money in all aspects. Buddy, you got a deal. Not everyone does, not everyone can.

You know what, 2 weeks ago, driving home from work, my Baleno broke down - drive-shaft failure (there's another thread for that). It had just completed 5 years and all services done as per manual. Is it acceptable ? I am not sure. While we can argue that the breakdown happened only after 5years and 38K kms of usage, it still left a bad taste.

And as tech. improves over the years, should not the products be getting better instead of worse ? Taking the example of the brand I know most (Suzuki), the '99 M800 we have just sucks compared to the '85 M800 we had. I would think it should have been the reverse.

In '85, our M800 was driven 350kms from Gauhati to Sibsagar immediately after taking delivery. Butter-smooth, no issues. Today after 25 years, we see cars going up in flames on the few km ride from dealer to home. Acceptable bcos it cost only 2L ? No. Maybe only 2 cars of 25K caught fire, but still can we accept it ? Don't think so.

Cut to '99. The 2nd M800 taken delivery in Surat and driven to Ankleshwar. By the time car reached home, the rear Maruti-Suzuki logo was close to falling off. In another couple of weeks, the IRVM fell off (which I then glued using Super-glue and it stays put to this day). Acceptable because it was just a 2.5L car ? No, Sir.

[Devil on Wheels]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Gordon, thanks for your posts. You have proved what I said. Indian car buyer is too thankful to get a car with a boot for 5 lakhs. So the consumer believes that since price is so good, problems and niggles can be ignored. User believes that because he has not spent 10L but 5L, he is entitled to poor service and quality.

To be honest your first post on the thread came as a tight slap across the face. A bit of a wake up call.

BUT-

But in a country bereft with problems/sub-standard services at each and every possible level, there' a lot that every individual has to deal with on a daily basis just to ensure the basic necessities for his family are taken care off. You hardly have any time left for chasing/suing car manufacturers.

If anyone had the time and the necessary expertise, he/she should rather focus his attention on other more critical issues like, infrastructure, health care, education, corruption, etc. If we as citizens can make our politicians/beurucrats/Govt officers responsible for their actions, or rather the lack of it, everything else will fall into place.

Take the example of any organisation across the world, it is only as good as the guy sitting on the top.

In order to make these car manufacturers pay for the poor quality of their goods you need a very efficient legal system. India' legal system no doubt is just and honest, but currently it is grossly understaffed, look at the number of cases awaiting trial across India. Add to it the fact that the representatives which we elect to the national and state assemblies, in most cases do not want India legal system to improve, coz if the legal system started working efficiently most of them will end up with jail terms.

In a society you can not have one section being punished for its mistakes, while the other makes merry. Theoritically it might sound very convincing and pleasing to the ears, but practically its simply not possible.

[rahulch]

While the topic of this thread is specific to car buying, the problem is more generic. I believe the post below summarizes it well!

Originally Posted by anupmathur

In a country where running water in household taps is unheard of, where power failures are a daily occurrence, where 'roads' have foot-deep potholes, where pedestrians get run over on a daily basis on National Highways & Expressways, where half the nation defecates in the open, where most bureaucrats & elected politicians are horrendously corrupt and are above the law, where court cases come up for a hearing only after decades, ... the list is endless .... why single us out about car-buying tolerance?

We tolerate everything, no matter how gross, no matter how out-of-sync with the rest of the world!
Shrug your shoulders and say, "We are like that only"!

Where do we go from here?

[RX135]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Gordon, thanks for your posts. You have proved what I said. Indian car buyer is too thankful to get a car with a boot for 5 lakhs. So the consumer believes that since price is so good, problems and niggles can be ignored. User believes that because he has not spent 10L but 5L, he is entitled to poor service and quality.

Keeping aside our "Chaltaa hai" attitude, we are ultra price conscious. We expect manufacturers to give us the latest and greatest features, but we are not ready to pay price for that. Manufacturers oblige but not before cutting corners. When you use substandard parts, you get substandard results. There is price associated with quality. Of course, that does not mean a cheap car should break down or fall apart. We suffer from both lack of quality consciousness (as customer) and lack of quality (manufacturer).

[GordonGekko]

Originally Posted by RX135

Keeping aside our "Chaltaa hai" attitude, we are ultra price conscious. We expect manufacturers to give us the latest and greatest features, but we are not ready to pay price for that. Manufacturers oblige but not before cutting corners. When you use substandard parts, you get substandard results. There is price associated with quality. Of course, that does not mean a cheap car should break down or fall apart. We suffer from both lack of quality consciousness (as customer) and lack of quality (manufacturer).

I agree completely.

You want a 4 lakh car....we'll give it to you. Simple as that.

Just take the case of the nano. It's a "Car" and very cheap one too. People know what they're getting into, yet they make it look like they have been wronged....lol.

[pradipk]

Nice topic. I would like to give importance to the following too.

1. How many buyers buy based on their own likes? - Very less.

As per our economy (please no figures from financial reports) even today also, car is a "BIG Thing". Mostly buyer will have only his hard earned money, the rest is based on the inputs given by friends/relatives or so called Hype. I have came across many examples where even people won't buy a car of their own color choice considering the "resale value". If 2-3 input comes like "parts are very costly" or "higher on maintenance side" or "this color will not give good resale" buyers simply change their mind.

In general a person will not buy even vegetables given by the subjiwala (where the purchase price is 5 rupee), rather he will try to hand pick by their own and will spend lakhs of Rs for the model which he really don't like but make their mind to like just because of above mentioned feed back from others. Forget about the Tolerance of average Indian buyer.

[blue_pulsar]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Indian car buyer is too thankful to get a car with a boot for 5 lakhs. So the consumer believes that since price is so good, problems and niggles can be ignored. User believes that because he has not spent 10L but 5L, he is entitled to poor service and quality.

Hi tsk, its not exactly like that. You see, ultimately what you pay is what you get. I'm sure all car companies give us the best they can to beat the competition. For e.g, we have the good quality i10 which is selling well. On the other hand, we're having the Swift at 5L ex-showroom which provides airbags, ABS+EBD, climate control etc etc which is selling well too. So, manufacturers have to cut corners right? Ultimately, it is personal choice on what you can compromise.

Also, the Indian market is opening up slowly to the likes of Beat, Figo etc. Even the i20 for that matter. I hope you agree with me.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by RX135

Keeping aside our "Chaltaa hai" attitude, we are ultra price conscious. We expect manufacturers to give us the latest and greatest features, but we are not ready to pay price for that. Manufacturers oblige but not before cutting corners. When you use substandard parts, you get substandard results. There is price associated with quality. Of course, that does not mean a cheap car should break down or fall apart. We suffer from both lack of quality consciousness (as customer) and lack of quality (manufacturer).

I humbly disagree. We pay the highest prices for cars in our country even when they are locally produced. Its simply because of the automobile manufacturer lobbying else I for the life of me cannot believe that Hyundai spends more than 3 lakhs in building a Santro or Maruti which charger more than 3.5 lakhs for the WagonR.

Local production should be cheaper, even more so in India because the labour is cheap. An Accord in the US costs 20,000$ even though they have to pay the salaries of the assembly line workers in dollars, pay through their nose for transporting the cars and then provide strict warranties and road side assistance and also care for the strict environment laws. All we need in India is some money and a corrupt bureaucrat, which are found aplenty.

[Devil on Wheels]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Local production should be cheaper, even more so in India because the labour is cheap.

It is cheap my friend, but the cost of a car or any other product, almost doubles by the time it completes it journey from the factory to the consumer. Thanks mainly to the distribution network, advertising, *** and taxes.

But then this story remains constant across the world, unless you are living in a socialist economy.

And BTW where exactly is the American Car industry these days???

Lastly and most importantly, if the American manufacturer' pay their expenses in $, they also get there revenues in $. There something called PPP (purchasing power parity) responsible for your perception of the dollar.

In fact its these phoren manufacturers who should ideally be selling cheaper cars, coz in most cases they bring only selected products to india. Products which have already sold a few hundred thousand units, if not millions. Which means they would have already amortised their R&D cost and depreciated their Capex. But they still sell cars at a premium over their indian counterparts (Tata & Mahindra) and still end up with their P&L statement in red (well not all but most).

Who is smarter the Indian consumer who patronises anything Phoren or these phoren owned and phoren controlled companies.

The Govt of India needs X amount of rupees to run its show which comes primarily from taxes. Tax payers can be devided into two categories: Consumer (which is us) & manufacturer (which is the companies both phoren & desi). If the companies dont pay taxes, because they havent earned profits, the Govt still needs Rs. X. And who pays for the shortfall????

Jago India Jago!!!!

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Devil on Wheels

Lastly and most importantly, if the American manufacturer' pay their expenses in $, they also get there revenues in $. There something called PPP (purchasing power parity) responsible for your perception of the dollar.

Its fine but then again, the cost of the American Accord in $ converted to rupees is still almost half the price at which it is sold here.

[RX135]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Its fine but then again, the cost of the American Accord in $ converted to rupees is still almost half the price at which it is sold here.

One of the factor playing there is HUGE sales volume compared to the Indian car industry. Economy of scale helps to a good extent there. Moreover, when several parts are imported (with good amount of taxes on them), costs are going to northwards.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by RX135

One of the factor playing there is HUGE sales volume compared to the Indian car industry. Economy of scale helps to a good extent there. Moreover, when several parts are imported (with good amount of taxes on them), costs are going to northwards.

Accord was just an example I took because it a volume product in US. What do you have to say about Santro and WagonR? Arent we being overcharged?

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Saw a post today that reminded me of this thread! In a new car, the bonnet release lever fell came apart 5 times in 4 months! And the mirror glass comes out when it goes into potholes. The glass inside the mirror tends to fall out when the car hits hard potholes.

But still the owners assures that the plastic although feel horrible initially, its loveable once you get the hang of it.

Note- Not mentioning names on purpose. But if you are reading, i think its being too tolerant to put back falling plastics in a new car! The image wreck that can cause if it happens when friends/ family members are around!

[Devil on Wheels]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Accord was just an example I took because it a volume product in US. What do you have to say about Santro and WagonR? Arent we being overcharged?

Exactly my point, my friend.

Look up the ownership pattern of both these manufacturers.

[mxx]

3 points here w.r.t general Indian market
1. Lack of awareness and knowledge
2. Too preoccupied with brands than product.
(I am referring to non-premium cars, when it comes to premium cars like merc, bmw brand loyalty plays a factor all around the world not just in India)
3. Yes, too tolerant