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Old 27th May 2010, 16:13   #31
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Originally Posted by rajushank84 View Post
I learnt one thing with car dealers: Go alone or with any guy, will not get a test drive. Go with wife, will get test drive for sure!
Surprisingly i always go with my friends for a TD, i was never ever denied a TD.
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Old 27th May 2010, 20:14   #32
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Originally Posted by jesal View Post
indian car market is as BAD as it gets. india claims to be a real super power country where it stands no chance. the other smaller have better markets i am not sure about their laws but the fact remains that most of the world is way ahead of india. india is as good as pakistan, vietnam, and similar ones. india is basically a lot of money but poor brains. lots of courrupt people are never gonna let india go up

Completely agree with you Jesal.

Not only car dealerships, but every upmarket place you visit treats you differentially with respect to your attire (in India).
I took my Tissot watch to an authorized service center (together with B+W from US), and they first asked me to get the 'real owner' of the watch to sign the service receipt (all I did was dress in a regular tee + shoddy cargoes + worn out strap sandals)!! I had to convince them by showing my credit card + DL.

In US , I bought my first (used) car from a mitsu dealership - and they treated us the same they were treating someone buying a brand new car (and I was wearing something similar).

Indian market is the toughest one to crack - because as a car company you never know what would click and what would not! A sizeable chunk is left to fate + dealership behavior!

Last edited by Rehaan : 1st June 2010 at 13:11. Reason: Quoted post edited.
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Old 28th May 2010, 11:53   #33
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Originally Posted by jesal View Post
India claims to be a real super power country where it stands no chance. the other smaller have better markets i am not sure about their laws but the fact remains that most of the world is way ahead of india. india is as good as pakistan, vietnam, and similar ones. india is basically a lot of money but poor brains. lots of courrupt people are never gonna let india go up
You are deviating too far from the thread's topic. If you are so much fed up with India, please go elsewhere and live. End of discussion.

Last edited by clevermax : 28th May 2010 at 12:10.
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Old 28th May 2010, 13:31   #34
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Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
now the big question-what the hell do we people want in a car?

bigger or smaller engine?
Smaller engine of course.

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
brand or product?
Brand of course. Japanese can rob us in daylight, nobody cares you see. Whatever be the price, Jap cars are VFM. Go to Toyota USA or Honda Australia and see the Corolla or City respectively. Compare the equipment levels and the price with that of Indian models. Both the cars are priced much lower than their Indian base version siblings and the equipment levels put the highest spec Indian versions to shame. No complaints here.

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
country of origin or country of value based (straight H v/s tilted H)
See the above. The straight H is a Jap and the tilted is a Korean. How dare a Korean car can be better? Hyundai Genesis won the North American COTY (It cannot be true, maybe they bribed the officials), i30 won the Spanish COTY, first time ever by an Asian manufacturer (The officicals surely made a mistake there), i20 has a 5-star NCAP safety rating and the Jazz has only a 4-star rating (how dare the Koreans made a safer car than the Japs (before somebody comes up with arguments, I'm talking about the EU spec cars only)). When Hyundai deleted the curtain Airbags from the i20 CRDi, they don't care about safety of Indian people. Corolla Altis base version does not even offer Airbags, but who cares? Honda City offers side and curtain Airbags on the City in AUS at an on-road price which is lesser than the ex-showroom price of the base model in India. But hey, when you go under a truck, the Jap badge will jump out of the car and save you.

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
power or mileage?
We want both. But we care only about numbers. We don't know what is driveability or in-gear acceleration. Higher the number, the better.

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
comfort or safety?
Comfort, is there a question? Safety, what is that?

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
style or image?
Tricky question. Actually both.

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
price or after sales service?
Both here also.

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
resale value or depreciation benefits?

Maruti understood the Indian car buyer mentality, that we care only about brand. They pioneered the trend of continuing age old models. Hyundai, Ford etc followed and voila. They succeeded. Hyundai has Santro, Getz, Accent etc sold alongside their worldwide replacements and for Ford, it's been the Fiesta (the original) in multiple forms (Ikon & Figo - (no offence to the cars themselves)). When the models are phased out in other countries, bring the die here, give it a new name and it'll sell for another decade

What more to tell about the maturity of the market?
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Old 9th June 2010, 09:50   #35
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Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
You are deviating too far from the thread's topic. If you are so much fed up with India, please go elsewhere and live. End of discussion.
i dint ask for your opinion firstly so dont give me one, im not the sorts who run away from problems. end of discussion there.
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Old 10th June 2010, 00:29   #36
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I guess manufacturers take consumers for a ride. But the Indian customer is gaining knowledge day by day. We are demanding. We want it all. Moreover, We buy plenty of diesels. That is the key for our market. No matter what car you make, ensure there is a diesel option available. It will give manufacturers much needed brownie points. The Indian car market is among the most competitive and complex because of the wide disparity in income groups, people's tastes, terrain etc.
As for the stuck up service some people reported they received, I have one experience to share. I have walked into a Skoda showroom when the new Laura TSI was launched and they were happy to show me the vehicle. Also got them to arrange a test drive the next day! In fact the only place where i actually had a fight for shoddy service was at the Park Sheraton in Chennai. They served me my drink after the guys next to me, and I had ordered much before them. Reason: They were foreigners. Point I am trying to make is that Skoda is an MNC and were nice to me. ITC Welcomegroup is an Indian brand and they sucked. So yes, to a certain extent our own people look down on us. We are like this only.
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Old 5th November 2011, 05:18   #37
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Default Re: The Big Question- Is The Indian Car Market The Toughest One To Crack On Earth?

Excellent observation SID,

What you are referring to IMO are the drawbacks of a growing Automobile market straight from the grass root level. We are come a long way and have a long way to go. Western countries had gone through a world war and have worked harder than us to understand machines and markets. This was in their culture.

As for us, we have grown straight from scratch, without most of us really putting an effort into the Automobile Industry. When we think of homegrown cars, only Tata, Mahindra and HM come to mind. That's 3 indigenous manufacturers in a market that's now one of the largest growing in the world.

This is also the reason we lack basic civic sense, responsibility and etiquettes. When you compare to the western countries, most of their generation which is now in their 60's, 70's have served in the military and rebuilt their country with their bare hands. Order, sense of responsibility and civic sense is in their blood. As for us, God bless Anna to save us.

Coming to our market, my personal observation is that when you purchase, say, a small entry level hatch, you would after sometime upgrade to a better one and so on....

About 15 or so years ago, there were very few newcomers in the markets, eg. Motorcycle/Scooter customers went for better Motorcycles/Scooters. So car buyers were pretty much the same lot that kept buying new cars.

Today, we have Motorcycle/Scooter buyers going in for cars, more college students buying cars, rural markets buying more and more cars. So the number of people buying cars is increasing and as a result we have a vast number of "noob" buyers in the market.

The sales figures of the last 10 years will confirm my point.

You cant really expect these people to be experts, its just a matter of time, as we grow richer and economically stronger, the automobile industry will grow and the "noobs" will become "pros".

I know what you mean by people talking numbers and judging cars, but bare in mind that those people are a minority and are there in every automobile market. Most of them belong to their own "bhedchaal" and have no experience or knowledge of owning and maintaining cars other than their own. Its just a failed attempt to "blend in" with the rest of us.
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Old 5th November 2011, 13:09   #38
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Default Re: The Big Question- Is The Indian Car Market The Toughest One To Crack On Earth?

Originally Posted by sidindica View Post
Recently, I was going through some posts about "underpowered" cars like punto, i20, fabia (1.2 litre) saying that seeing the specs on paper is a deal breaker (one post on VGT V/s FGT engine on punto diesel), some people saying that small engines are fuel efficient but not on big heavy cars, etc etc.

now the big question-what the hell do we people want in a car?

bigger or smaller engine?
brand or product?
country of origin or country of value based (straight H v/s tilted H)
power or mileage?
comfort or safety?
style or image?
price or after sales service?
resale value or depreciation benefits?

etc etc..

i think this writeup will clear some myths that still prevail in us.

fact one: the car's mechanicals:

we were all damn excited when the finance minister Mr. P. Chidambaram announced a tax cut for cars with petrol engines < 1.2L, diesel < 1.5L and <4 m in size. it sent manufacturers into a tizzy and they scratched their heads in wondering whether that is till possible or not.

yes, we think that FM had fault in this but remember one thing: the future is only smaller engines in big cars with DI and turbocharging. One reason-meeting of strict emission norms and increasing mileage.

Do NOT go by what is written in the brochure about an engine capacity, power and torque and cribbing about underpowered 1.2 engines in big hatches. Remember in Europe, this is a common practice as these cars are volume sellers. The people in R&D are not fools that they can do anything they want. They design cars for a global environment, ours included and depending upon the requirements of the country, determine the engine size.

Our country is more of a mileage conscious country, not power. Where the hell are going to we race small hatchbacks? In chocked cities or highways full of trucks?

Now comes the question of diesel engines, FGT V/S VGT.

cars like-palio, ritz, swift, punto, 500 and vista are small, agile city hatches which are not meant to be raced. And if Swift DDIS owners are happy with the car's performance with an FGT, why the hell do we criticize the punto for being second grade? just because is it a FIAT product? Or just because are we expecting too much from them?

Work in an R&D team and then you will come to know how difficult it is to really tune the car for our market.

The fact is engine size alone on paper does not determine whether the car is worthy of buying or not. It is determined by how a car behaves on pressing the throttle and how is it easy to drive on city streets, which a majority of car buyers want. If you want to race a small hatch, then look elsewhere.

Now comes the question of fuel efficiency.

We need to educate people something called as driving etiquettes. The fact is actually all cars are reasonably fuel efficient but it depends upon our driving style, which majority of we Indians are not aware of.

The big cause-contaminated fuel, poor roads and infrastructure, poor traffic rules and laws, poor pedastrian safety measures etc.

we often criticise cars with low clearence due to our roads but fail to understand that we have to fault, not the car manufacturer.

Remember that cars with high ground clearence are less stable at high speeds as compared to cars with high GC. What we need is top class roads to enjoy cars with same global level spec as people in other countries enjoy it.

Now comes-price. we often cry that some cars are overpeiced, features not offered etc but are you aware of the term "bhedchaal"? majority of the people only buy cars just for the sake of brands without really digging deep into the goodness of the product.

I mean what the hell will you gain if you buy an accord over a sonata? status?

people say it is embarassing for us to go in a big car with a tilted H rather than a straight H or the car with a fiat badge rather than go with a toyota/ honda badge.

it is not a shame about what brand of cars do you purchase.It is about whether are you really enjoying the car as a whole or not.

take a proper test drive and decide that what best value you can get out of your vehicle rather than just blind-foldedly going for "brand" factor for the sake of avoiding "embarrasement".

There are lots of options out there than restricting ourselves to just a few brands.

Question of safety:

We cry that manufacturers are not providing us with ABS/ airbags.

the big question is- HOW many of us really do end up purchasing up cars with safety options?

all we care is about-price, price, discount, discount, resale value etc.. and not the product that you enjoy.

No salespersons are even aware of the functions of ABS/ airbags in mass market cars, all they care is maximum sale at the cost of safety. It is for this reason that old outdated models like:

maruti 800
zen estilo
old indica

and many more are existing confusing customers (two or more generations of the same model sold side by side).
why can't we be at the same level as other countries?

another big question-poor sales staff at all dealerships whether it is maruti or audi/bmw/merc many persons, I do not know how the hell are they recruited and without even basic knowledge of the product, working in the showrooms and misleading customers.

resale value- why do we ask this question when an average person drives the car for 5 years? This means that he is buying the car just for formality and not to enjoy the product.

After sales service-this is a debatable topic that even I cannot comment on, as opinions may differ. But yes, can we give a chance to the Koreans and Tata/ Fiat?
Unfortunately, Many of we people are not exactly maintenance savvy and when a major problem crops up, blame the manufacturer on the component design.
how many of us thoroughly read and go through the owners manual 2-3 times after delivery? most of us have never even opened it except to find the numbers of dealers.

It is cheaper to maintain a Hyundai premium car than a Honda, isnt it? So why can't some people try and enjoy sonata and tucson?

Unfortunately we Indians are not even aware at the basic level of car knowledge (general car buying people) and even I feel that Team-bhp has to try even harder to campaign and educate Indian car buying public the importance of products and safety.

I don't know whether I have written an appropriate article, some may call it biased, some may like it or not but I personally feel that Indian car market is the most difficult to crack it on earth. Just because we expect again and again without going deeper into the product.

(Disclaimer: This write up is not meant to offend any existing or prospective car buyers/ sellers/ owners/ dealers/ salespersons etc, but just my opinion and truth that I have seen).

I would like you members to contribute with your humble opinions and how we can as a forum of 41,000 and growing members can help manufacturers and encourage them to come up with the same spec cars as abroad.

MODS: If my way of writing has errors, kindly correct them.
these are exactly my thoughts poured on paper with government norms on engine displacement and car size you see most cars to be hatchback to save on excise, the reason more diesel cars have lower displacement engines and with turbo to give power, is due to government excise above 1.3l engines.

thanx Sid
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Old 6th November 2011, 01:55   #39
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Default Re: The Big Question- Is The Indian Car Market The Toughest One To Crack On Earth?

OK.. I understand the need why a small car (< 4m length)must have an engine under the capacities mentioned. But why do the 'longer' cars have to make do with the same bloody engines? I mean cars like the SX4, Linea, New Fiesta, Dezire can very well exceed the engine size requirements of their small car siblings and become much lesser stressed engines at all speeds.

>4m Petrol cars first:

When will car manufacturers understand that if a Dezire is priced more than a Swift, and is heavier than the Swift, and sometimes may have to haul weights unthinkable on the Swift, then it might need some extra power + torque low down for those requirements.

All the others have done this one right. But only Maruti has the confidence which allows them to sell everything they manage to make.

A bigger engine might not necessarily mean lower fuel efficiency. With better low end torque, the car may as well be equally fuel economical in the city as well as on the highway. If the SX4 petrol can pass emission norms, a detuned 1.5 Dezire Petrol can do that as well.

Thats actually the reason I feel for Toyota for screwing up Etios Petrol NVH and interiors. They have a great product in the Etios and they are just ruining it for themselves.

Thats where Honda has always excelled because they got their engines right on both the City and the Jazz. The city, has always been succesful and if not for the insane pricing, Jazz would have been a success from day one (assumption based on the current waiting period). The City was an aspirational car all these years just because Honda had done all things right for its Indian customers. In fact, the City did exceedingly well in the C segment till the day another car which got its basic right was not launched. That would be the Vento.

I am not commenting on the Indigo petrol since they hardly sell any.

Coming to >4 m length Diesels.
SX4: The VGT 1.3 MJD should have gone in the Dezire's engine bay. Not the SX4!! Thats too much of a compromise for a car you are paying over 10 Lac(for the variant with decent safety features). Totally unacceptable. The pricing is considering the fact that a Manza which has much more space, equipment and basically the same engine sells for > 1.2 lac less. No wonder not even a Diesel can help SX4 gather the no.s.

New Ford Fiesta: Whats with Ford now? Which duties were they trying to save when they downsized the 1.6 TDCi to the 1.5? Did they totally forget about the length bit? At the price they are selling their car, the least they could have done is give the car the engine it deserves. Maybe then it would have done better no.s than it does now.

Linea : Well, the 1.6 Mjd would have made it a unique product in the market. Maybe it would then successfully outsell the HM Ambassador. Maybe even cars like the New Verna Diesel or the Diesel Vento. I understand that even the old Verna never sold >1500 units on its old gen. I cannot understand why everyone apart from the Fiat India administration can see potential in this one. Bosses of Fiat India should go car shopping sometime.
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Old 6th November 2011, 07:11   #40
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Default Re: The Big Question- Is The Indian Car Market The Toughest One To Crack On Earth?

India may be amongst the most difficult markets to crack - no doubt about it.

Generally speaking, we Indians typically want Everything for Nothing and in No time at all!

But hey, as a consumer, I am happy to see the way these manufacturers are rising to the challenge!
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