[Xeno]

Originally Posted by nik_kapur

Toyota seriously needs to start respecting India. They have been treating us an unimportant market for a while now and when things become tough, they are crying foil.

Toyota is actually one of the rare manufacturers who actually dish out the same cars offered in the states/Asia/EU. Not compromised cars like the swift, i10, datsun, wagonR, Scorpio which get zero stars in NCAP. Even their cheap etios got 4 stars in crash tests. I'd rather have a safe car than a snazzy gizmo filled tin coffin. Also from ownership reports the etios lasts equally well as its more premium offerings.

They don't sell us any old crap, all the engines offered in India are still widely sold worldwide including the states. The Corolla, Camry (also Camry Hybrid) bear the latest tech that's on offer.

The Innova engine 2.5 2KD-FTV was developed in 2001 which is the same age as the Fiat 1.3 Multijet which came around in 2003 and still is the most sold diesel engine in India.

Honda & Hyundai don't have large diesels on sale hence they are unaffected. The Santa Fe doesn't sell much anyway and the CRV is a pure petrol.

Toyota gave India the innova which is still unmatched in demand and usage even after a decade of introduction. It ages well, runs for lakhs and lakhs of kms without rattling. It requires much more energy to produce a new car than to keep an old one in a healthy running condition.

Forcing Toyota to abandon their strengths and try to dumb them down to the proposed category will fill the marker with cars that are compromised in some way or other to fit in the rules.

I own a 04 corolla and I see none of it's rivals during that time plying the roads today. Yet you'll see these first gen corollas running in pristine condition even today. That's enough respect from a manufacturer to give us quality not seen before while the rest dump us with stuff that is hard to keep after 5 years of good use.

[Turbanator]

Since we are expecting Toyota to adapt to local norms, then we should not expect any SUV's or MPV's or premium offerings. It's just best to sell small cars with small engine capacities since only those fit in local norms.

Toyota does not sell a single Diesel Car in North American market. They have some of best Petrol engines, what stops them in bringing those engines coupled with hybrids?

They don't have a diesel engine plant in India yet - only blue prints & approvals and that is what is hurting them probably more than anything else . Why don't they go back to their management and instead ask for Hybrids ? I know this is not simple but should they instead not use this an opportunity - all others have diesel engine plants in India and they can be first to set up some serious Hybrid stuff and given their size and excellent relations present government has with Japan they can surely get a lot of concessions. rather than crying and making noises and holding investments these guys should see this is an opportunity - who knows they can beat Suzuki 10 Years down the lane just because of Hybrids which is the future.

[landcruiser123]

Can we please not talk about technologies which are not coming to our country? The topic is on NGT's illogical ban on diesels with capacities more than 2000cc.

Our vehicle policy is outdated and the government doesn't do anything to enforce changes quickly. If it proved that diesel vehicles cause more pollution, you should have a plan to phase them out over a couple of years and also give monetary benefits for people selling their old diesel cars.

There's a nine year old Innova sitting in our garage. It has done only 63xxx kms. We intend to keep it for 15 years. Now, if we're forced to dispose the car next year, buying a City auomatic(dad wants AT) is going to be a huge financial burden.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

Toyota does not sell a single Diesel Car in North American market. They have some of best Petrol engines, what stops them in bringing those engines coupled with hybrids?

Lesser FE + The cost of a hybrid system will price these cars at par with diesel counterparts. Many Indians will go buy the diesel versions only.

[studentonwheels]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Our vehicle policy is outdated and the government doesn't do anything to enforce changes quickly. If it proved that diesel vehicles cause more pollution, you should have a plan to phase them out over a couple of years and also give monetary benefits for people selling their old diesel cars.

There's a nine year old Innova sitting in our garage. It has done only 63xxx kms. We intend to keep it for 15 years. Now, if we're forced to dispose the car next year, buying a City auomatic(dad wants AT) is going to be a huge financial burden.



Lesser FE + The cost of a hybrid system will price these cars at par with diesel counterparts. Many Indians will go buy the diesel versions only.

I agree. The government has to understand that not everyone cares about emissions when it comes to saving money. I fully agree with the owner who cares two hoots about pollution but wants to keep his reliable diesel ride simply because he would get next to nothing on trading it in, even though I am a die hard fan of petrol's over diesel engines and all for saving the environment. I don't know how much incentives the government can offer to companies making hybrid cars in order for them to bring down costs, if they want to go by that route. Toyota makes fantastic hybrids, but the Prius would cost INR 20 lakh plus in India. Here in the US you can pick one up for half that price fully loaded. I honestly don't hybrid car makers dropping prices in India in the near future.

[ashlil]

I see many posts here that state that Toyota gives us international models. Really? Just compare the corolla that you get in India and the one that you get in US, especially the safety equipment list. The Indian models are international only in looks. Toyota has always provided us with premium priced dumbed down cars.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by ashlil

I see many posts here that state that Toyota gives us international models. Really? Just compare the corolla that you get in India and the one that you get in US, especially the safety equipment list. The Indian models are international only in looks. Toyota has always provided us with premium priced dumbed down cars.

Features wise yes, the Altis does not match the international variants. This is the only sore point. The funny thing is the older Altis was very well equipped and they didn't upgrade the new gen Altis to match international markets.

They did the same with the Camry initially by launching it barebones and within 2 years equipped it with every possible feature including 7 airbags.

The Innova has 3 airbags standard across the range with the top end Z getting 7 airbags.

This means that Toyota has realised their earlier mistakes so it's only a matter of time, the Altis comes with these features as well.

Other than the features, I don't believe there is any compromise in quality levels, or in manufacturing from what is available internationally.

[ashlil]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

This means that Toyota has realised their earlier mistakes so it's only a matter of time, the Altis comes with these features as well.

I am not sure they have realized their mistakes. I am inclined to believe that they take Indian market for granted. Sticking with corolla example, 13 lakh in US (price converted to INR) will fetch you CVT and even the base variant has 8 airbags, ABS and all other safety acronyms you can think of. The Indian corolla is near 15 lakhs and they grudgingly provide two airbags and ABS on the top model. The taxes may be more in India, but shouldn't the lower production cost reflect in the price?

And why should Toyota learn from their mistakes? We continue to adore their sub-standard South/South-East Asia specific products and we are queuing to pay premium price for their grossly un-premium cars.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by ashlil

I am not sure they have realized their mistakes. I am inclined to believe that they take Indian market for granted. Sticking with corolla example, 13 lakh in US (price converted to INR) will fetch you CVT and even the base variant has 8 airbags, ABS and all other safety acronyms you can think of. The Indian corolla is near 15 lakhs and they grudgingly provide two airbags and ABS on the top model. The taxes may be more in India, but shouldn't the lower production cost reflect in the price?

Comparing US prices with Indian prices is completely unfair. For the same price as a fully loaded Corolla in USA, you will get a Ciaz, top end BRezza or mid variant Honda City.

Forget Toyota look at BMW/Mercedes. A S-class in the USA costs the same as a fully loaded C class in India.

Indian prices are totally off and it is pointless comparing the 2 in price and features.

And why should Toyota learn from their mistakes? We continue to adore their sub-standard South/South-East Asia specific products and we are queuing to pay premium price for their grossly un-premium cars.

Just like how Honda learnt from mistakes.

We are getting the same cars as South east Asia. Renault, Maruti, Hyundai, Ford give us India specific cars with structural compromises.

The Etios in India still meets Latin NCAP safety standards.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

We are getting the same cars as South east Asia.

The Etios in India still meets Latin NCAP safety standards.

I was never a fan of Toyota despite getting to drive around the Fortuner quite a bit.

But have a new found respect for them ever since the Etios crash test. And the new Innova is truly a step in the right direction. It commands a premium alright, but that car made me feel the premium is worth it - unlike any other Toyota cars sold in India.

I believe that's the route Toyota should take. No compromise products built to international standards. In the process, if they need to charge a premium, let it be. People won't mind paying if the product is worth it.

[ashlil]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Comparing US prices with Indian prices is completely unfair.

Why? Just because BMW and Mercedes overcharge, Toyota also must overcharge? I fail to see the logic.

The fact of the matter is, Toyota were counting on making easy money by overpricing their two successful products, as is their birthright. And they would have made the easy money with ease, since we Indians love those "international" (read south/south-east asian) products. Now that the diesel ban affects the prospect of easy money, they feel betrayed and whine non-stop. I strongly feel that if the ban was imposed in the Europe (and soon it will be), they would have seen immense market opportunity to sell hybrids (that too priced low, e.g. Prius is priced 20 lakhs in UK and 38 lakhs in India). But since the ban was imposed in India, they have to now rethink about their investments.

[Turbanator]

Why? Just because BMW and Mercedes overcharge, Toyota also must overcharge? I fail to see the logic.

No , you should first study Tax Structure in India vs other countries, we have a Basic Excise Duty varying from 24-30 % , 2 % CST on Manufacturer and Dealer , 12-15 % VAT on Dealer to end customer sales and 8- 20 % Road Taxes . Once you do a little Math you will have an answer. Smaller cars where components ( not assemblies ) are produced ( not sourced ) in India will be cheaper so cars like SWIFT etc will be cheaper here than Europe even after adding all taxes. All High-value cars across different manufacturers will continue to be priced higher than other markets till the time there are numbers and component makers start producing these in India. Tell me who will produce DashBoard for Corolla in India, something which sells 500 a month and there is some interior change every year or two - a single mould to produce such component will run into crores.

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I believe that's the route Toyota should take. No compromise products built to international standards. In the process, if they need to charge a premium, let it be. People won't mind paying if the product is worth it.

Add the trust they have gained with their good ASS support.

I think that is where Skoda, Volkswagen falls short, the ASS.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by ashlil

Why? Just because BMW and Mercedes overcharge, Toyota also must overcharge? I fail to see the logic.

The fact of the matter is, Toyota were counting on making easy money by overpricing their two successful products, as is their birthright. And they would have made the easy money with ease, since we Indians love those "international" (read south/south-east asian) products. Now that the diesel ban affects the prospect of easy money, they feel betrayed and whine non-stop. I strongly feel that if the ban was imposed in the Europe (and soon it will be), they would have seen immense market opportunity to sell hybrids (that too priced low, e.g. Prius is priced 20 lakhs in UK and 38 lakhs in India). But since the ban was imposed in India, they have to now rethink about their investments.

Why single out Toyota? Honda CR-V is priced at 33 lakhs in India. VW sells the Jetta at 26 lakhs in India. Hyundai sells the Creta at 18 lakhs. For that money you can get a Santa Fe in USA.

Comparing with USA prices is a complete moot point. Let's not go off topic with irrelevant comparisons.

The Pruis is a full fledged CBU and not just for India, but worldwide no country makes the Prius except Japan. The Camry Hybrid on the other hand is locally assembled which results in the Camry Hybrid being cheaper than the Prius in India.

What we get is a mix of global/south east asia and local products from Toyota. Honda is doing the same. Do you see Amaze, Brio and City in USA? Are they global products? I don't see the problem with us getting cars that are sold in other countries and meet all the safety regulations there.

It's better than the likes of Maruti, Hyundai, Renault who compromise on structural components just because India doesn't have the regulations in place. Then there's the silly sub 4m segment created in India. I'm glad Toyota chose not to offer that here.

My point is simple, I don't see anything wrong that Toyota is doing here. Their business strategy is different from others. Where other manufacturers are focusing on lower segment small cars, Toyota is looking at the higher segment. And for no real fault of theirs, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and other makers are getting penalised.

[ashlil]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Why single out Toyota? Honda CR-V is priced at 33 lakhs in India. VW sells the Jetta at 26 lakhs in India. Hyundai sells the Creta at 18 lakhs. For that money you can get a Santa Fe in USA.

Why single out Toyota? Because they are whining loudly, as if they did a favor to India by gracing us with their presence.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Comparing with USA prices is a complete moot point. Let's not go off topic with irrelevant comparisons.

It was not a moot point. The point originally was that we get "international" cars only in looks, even though we pay more.

Originally Posted by Vid6639

My point is simple, I don't see anything wrong that Toyota is doing here. Their business strategy is different from others. Where other manufacturers are focusing on lower segment small cars, Toyota is looking at the higher segment. And for no real fault of theirs, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW and other makers are getting penalised.

My point is also simple. I don't see anything right in Toyota's whine. Their business strategy is faulty. Where other manufactures diversified their product portfolio, Toyota decided to stick to two cars only. Now that the ban affects those two cars, they act all hurt. They are being penalized for their faulty strategy.

Originally Posted by Turbanator

No , you should first study Tax Structure in India vs other countries, we have a Basic Excise Duty varying from 24-30 % , 2 % CST on Manufacturer and Dealer , 12-15 % VAT on Dealer to end customer sales and 8- 20 % Road Taxes . Once you do a little Math you will have an answer. Smaller cars where components ( not assemblies ) are produced ( not sourced ) in India will be cheaper so cars like SWIFT etc will be cheaper here than Europe even after adding all taxes. All High-value cars across different manufacturers will continue to be priced higher than other markets till the time there are numbers and component makers start producing these in India. Tell me who will produce DashBoard for Corolla in India, something which sells 500 a month and there is some interior change every year or two - a single mould to produce such component will run into crores.

Tax structure alone does not account for the huge difference in ex-showroom price. Also, are you saying that the Prius is sourced (not assembled) in the US and UK and that is why it is cheap there?

[Aaron:)]

A lot has been said about this topic and here's my few cents -

First of all, Toyota's reaction is completely valid. The ban on diesel engines above 2000cc is completely unjustified. The government needs to come up with better and more scientific solutions to curb pollution. A poorly maintained small taxi would emit much more pollutants than a big diesel car that conforms to the emission norms set in place.

I also feel that the government's recent moves could be the result of some lobbying by some manufacturers. How Mahindra had the 1.99l engine ready and the Ciaz/Ertiga being classified as a hybrid.

Also, a company like Toyota or Mercedes cannot react the same way as Mahindra. They cannot spend millions on R&D just to develop engines that conform to the ever changing rules in India.