[YC.BALENO.CHD]

Originally Posted by ottocycle

Voted to TATA Nano.

Simple Reasons:
2. Tata nano is like a 16 year old teenager and has immense opportunities to improve. M800 is like a 65 years old person, has achieved enough in his past, but doesn't have breath to hold any longer.

Agree. And looking at Europa versions/concept there is no doubt Nano will witness many upgrades.

But am talking about the current scenario. Maybe, gradually Nano might evolve into a worthy challenger to Alto but these are assumptions and future predictions. My posts are more in tune with the current scenario.

Originally Posted by longhorn

Contrary to what some people have mentioned on the thread, the M 800 was not phased out because the engine cannot meet Euro IV norms. If that were the case, the Alto would have been phased out as well. This itself speaks volumes about an engine designed about 3 decades ago. Maruti has decided that its no longer prudent to make investments in a product that is on its last leg. They have willfully decided not to upgrade the 800 and its product life cycle would come to an end when Euro IV norms kick in for the rest of the country, if not earlier.

Exactly.

Regards.

[supremeBaleno]

The only reason for the Nano kicking up such a big storm in India/globally was the price. Making a 1-lakh car (or $2500 car as it is known outside India) was surely akin to a miracle, when the nearest competitor was at double or more that price. Ofcourse there are other good things about the car, but the main USP was the price.

I am not sure what the OTR of a Nano is today, but I remember seeing 2lakh+ prices (one of them being 2.4lakhs or so) mentioned in some of the owner-reviews on the forum, which is double or more than originally claimed. If the price is indeed 2 times more than what was initially mentioned, I see more value in opting for an M800 than owning something that looks like an Estilo, has not proven its reliability and sounds like an auto-rickshaw.

Will the Nano enable the bikers to move to cars at this price, which was supposedly the motivation for Tata to come up with this car ? I don't think so, because if that were the case, they would have moved to M800 long time ago.

Actually, the biker-redemption thing will never work. Even if the Nano were to come at 1lakh OTR, you won't have all the bikers ditching their bikes for the car, because of other things like operating expenses being more for a car, starting with fuel cost - 15kmpl vs 60kmpl is too much to bridge.

Does it make a VFM-buy for someone who can well afford an M800, but wanted to go for the cheaper-by-50% Nano ? I don't know because this would vary from individual to individual - some would go for the space/headroom, or for the looks it would attract (not all of them being complimentary though) or just because it is a new car in town. But at a price close to the tried and tested M800, it does not make a VFM buy for me.

[airbender]

Considering that M800 is phased out from 13 big cities and may be completely out in the near future, is it even right to compare Nano with 800. How can you vote for a car which you can no longer buy?

[shortbread]

The M800 has a lot of advantages against the Nano, being made for 30 odd years has the virtue of being cheap (albeit a lot more expensive than a Nano), a familiar & proven product, a wider service network etc..etc...

The suprise with the Nano has been that despite the 1 lac price tag its been associated with, the public are willing to shell twice as much for the more expensive variants. It just goes to show how the public are fed up of being fed on a diet of an outdated car that faced no competition in its price bracket for so long.

The Nano is still more spacious, better looking and far more importantly SAFER!!

Why cant Maruti pick up the gauntlet and make something better than the Nano rather than pushing the M800 down our throats, they owe this to India. This country has kept the Jap parents cash registers ringing for so many years now, they should have been the first ones to think of this concept rather than ridiculing Tata with various dubious reasons.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by shortbread

Why cant Maruti pick up the gauntlet and make something better than the Nano rather than pushing the M800 down our throats

True. While the laudable option would be if they created a new small car to compete against the Nano, the least they could do is cut prices on the M800 given that the dies & stuff have depreciated to almost nothing.

Actually, I was betting on them cutting prices to deal with the Nano-assault and I believe they would have had no other option but to cut prices if the Nano was priced as originally mentioned. But with the prices of Nano creeping up to M800 levels, maybe they dont see the need.

@airbender, this thread (& poll) was started last year when the M800 was still selling all over India - hence the comparison/voting. Even today you can still buy it in other cities/towns and drive anywhere you want, which IMO makes the comparo still relevant.

[YC.BALENO.CHD]

Originally Posted by airbender

Considering that M800 is phased out from 13 big cities and may be completely out in the near future, is it even right to compare Nano with 800. How can you vote for a car which you can no longer buy?

I guess hardly any one of the active members in thread are going to buy a Nano or an 800 anytime soon.

Also, it may not be same in the future, one can still buy an 800. There are some aggressive price cuts for 800 and they may signal its final departure but the fact is that at the moment 800 can be bought.

Further, this current discussion is more in tune with the the following two points:

1) Is the hype and buzz for the Nano justified? Considering that its not a 'Rs.1 lakh car' (the marketing strategy TATA employed) and for the price its asking, it has some serious flaws (some do not regard Nano as a 'proper car' in this very forum).

2) As the 800 is the original 'people's car', will Nano be as legendary for Indian auto-industry as 800 was/is? Also, considering that both the cars has a common objective (affordable to the masses), does Nano succeed in being a worthy alternative to the original people's car?

The discussions here, as you must have noticed, are being done keeping in mind the needs of potential buyers who will be looking for their first car.

I for instance have quite a few cars at my disposal. If need to buy one of these, chances are I'll go for Nano as I'll be using better cars on highway and Nano (with no boot space, no power, and all its flaws) will be enough for city run, that too mainly to crowded areas where I won't be at ease with my bigger cars.

But If it has to be my first car, will I go for a Nano? Never. I'll still opt for the dated 800 or a base Alto.

However, I would had accepted the short-comings of Nano if it would had retailed for close to a lakh rupees.
But if other manufacturers are offering 'proper cars' for marginally more money, why should a buyer compromise?

And why can't two things be compared even if one of them is on verge of being discontinued?



Also, It is believed that Mr.Ratan Tata decided to launch a 'cheap' car when he saw 4 people traveling on a beat up mo'bike.

May I ask one thing, How many families commute on a bike which costs anywhere above 60000?
Also, like someone said, Nano will be many times more expensive not only to buy, but to run than say a 125cc commuter bike.

Above all, if any family had even a lakh of rupees and was so desperate to buy a car, there are many used examples to be found easily.


As a business tycoon, I have immense respect for Mr.Tata, but somehow this marketing gimmick, of launching a car for families that can only afford a two wheeled commuter, at a price of 1 lakh failed to impress me. Especially when the car costs much more than a lakh of rupees.

Originally Posted by shortbread

T
The Nano is still more spacious, better looking and far more importantly SAFER!!

Its very spacious when it comes to headroom but an average Indian doesn't need a tallboy to be at ease.
Yeah legroom is quite more, and that is Nano's plus point

BTW, nano has no glove-compartment, I wonder where car papers and other small things are stowed.

As for SAFETY, Have you ever seen majority of commuters traveling anywhere above 50kmph even in the less crowded cities in India? Also, at places like Chandigarh where there are well surfaced roads, I hardly exceeded the speed limit of 65kmph as there are speed-guns everywhere.

So, if a crash happens at say 50Kmph, I doubt 800 will fare much worse than a Nano.

Why cant Maruti pick up the gauntlet and make something better than the Nano rather than pushing the M800 down our throats, they owe this to India. This country has kept the Jap parents cash registers ringing for so many years now, they should have been the first ones to think of this concept rather than ridiculing Tata with various dubious reasons.

Sure, Maruti has made huge profits selling all kinds of dated and fresh cars. And am very patriotic and all but when I discuss about business and other things, I keep my feelings for MNCs and all aside.
So what if Maruti is doing good business from our money? Suzuki wasn't here to offer charity.


Also, What is the need of developing a product from grounds up when 800 is priced very close to the Nano and only a few ten thousands seperate the base alto from the nano.



Regards.

[airbender]

Nano is safer than 800. Go to the accidents in India thread and you will see in most of the accidents involving 800 the impact was felt inside the passenger cabin. Nano fared better.

I see a lot of people calling 800 a highway car. Is it? Just because people are driving it on the highway doesnot mean that it's a highway car. We even drive two wheelers on the highways. Out of all cars sold in India, Reva and M800 are the most unsafe cars be it highways or city roads.

M800 sells 2K+ right now(from 6000+ before Nano was launched). This number might go down once Nano is available all over the country. This itself shows Nano has won.

Nano finish/quality levels are better than M800. The only problem I see with Nano is the engine sound. If news reports are to be believed Tata is working on that.

Well, as I have said earlier why cheer about some one who had already lost the game.

[PAVAN KADAM]

M-800 has proved and now is dated and Out, with all due respects to it. Let it RIP.

If i have a choice today to decide between the Maruti Tin box and the TATA's pint size car,

My vote goes to the NANO. I drive a 1997 M-800 clocked 2.45 lac kms even today as my daily drive, but one simple drive in my friends Nano changed it all. The NANO is much better in terms of comfort, space and driveablility when compared to the cramped and bouncy M-800.

If they get the Europa with an Autobox, i will book one instantly.

[shortbread]

What frustrates me is that compared to a newcomer like Tata, Suzuki has far greater engineering experience with small cars, can easily source cheap due to their buying power, a stronger manufacturing production and sales prsence nationally let alone globally. There is no reason that they cant make such a car with India as its production base. If they are shy to name it Suzuki (cant see why considering this is not anywhere close to being a posh brand), call it Maruti then. This car would have been a runaway success anyday.

No they choose not to. A majority of their successful models other than the Swift are hand me downs, or outphased ones from Japan. Companies like Hyundai and even Ford have focussed on exports more than Suzuki India.

I get the feeling the management is struggling to swallow the bitter pill that this by far a much more important market than Japan, the West or the whole lot combined. Instead of adapting Jap models for Indians its high time they adapt India specific models for the world.

If Suzuki cant drill this into their grey matter, soon VW will.

[burnt.]

For the sake of comparison, I am posting the Trivandrum on-road prices of different versions of both the Nano and the 800. The prices are as compiled from carwale which means that extended warranty as well as metallic colour charges will be added to this.

Tata Nano

Base 1,53,871
CX 1,81,210
LX 2,02,456


Maruti 800

Std 2,13,641
AC 2,37,522
Std LPG 2,29,572
AC LPG 2,53,454
AC Uniq 2,33,787

[YC.BALENO.CHD]

Originally Posted by airbender

Nano is safer than 800. Go to the accidents in India thread and you will see in most of the accidents involving 800 the impact was felt inside the passenger cabin. Nano fared better.

How many crashed nanos have you seen? Also, how many Nanos you see out on highways? Do you have any valid stats or is it merely your assumption?
[/quote]

I see a lot of people calling 800 a highway car. Is it? Just because people are driving it on the highway doesnot mean that it's a highway car. We even drive two wheelers on the highways. Out of all cars sold in India, Reva and M800 are the most unsafe cars be it highways or city roads.

800 is not a highway car. But out on highway its far better than a Nano.
Its more unsafe than a 800. Period.

1) Overtaking in 800 is much safer than in Nano, because it has more power and better acceleration. Also, unlike the Nano, Rev-limiter doesn't cut in abruptly.

2) Nano is far more bothered by cross-winds than 800.

3) Nano has a very small range, for a long highway run, one has to be sure of fuel-stops. Also, that digi-fuel meter is prone to errors.

4) Above all, Nano has no disc brakes. 800's braking is poor, Nano's is even worse. Brake fade is in abundance and the way car sways to one side is very discouraging.

As for CRASH-SAFETY, Nano is very much better than 800, but then due to the pts. I just mentioned, Nano is far more suspectible to crash on a highway.

Am not of opinion that 800 is a highway car, but compared to nano its much better. Also, I wonder where one may store his luggage while doing a highway run.


Also, if something is no longer available in market, doesn't mean it cant be compared to current models. Aren't OHC and NHC and ANHC still being compared on many threads? Do not people still compare OHC V-tec and Baleno?

Originally Posted by burnt.

For the sake of comparison, I am posting the Trivandrum on-road prices of different versions of both the Nano and the 800. T
Maruti 800

Std 2,13,641
AC 2,37,522
Std LPG 2,29,572
AC LPG 2,53,454
AC Uniq 2,33,787

You haven't factored in the 30 K discounts that is on offer these days.


Regards.

[burnt.]

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

1) Overtaking in 800 is much safer than in Nano, because it has more power and better acceleration. Also, unlike the Nano, Rev-limiter doesn't cut in abruptly.

2) Nano is far more bothered by cross-winds than 800.

3) Nano has a very small range, for a long highway run, one has to be sure of fuel-stops. Also, that digi-fuel meter is prone to errors.

4) Above all, Nano has no disc brakes. 800's braking is poor, Nano's is even worse. Brake fade is in abundance and the way car sways to one side is very discouraging.

As for CRASH-SAFETY, Nano is very much better than 800, but then due to the pts. I just mentioned, Nano is far more suspectible to crash on a highway.

I understand the points you are making but do not completely agree with the conclusion. Accidents occur under either unavoidable circumstances and diver errors or with drivers not understanding the limitations of the car. The first case is mostly unavoidable whatever car you maybe driving whereas the second is due to irresponsible driving for which the car really cannot be blamed.

But if the 800 brakes are better than the Nano brakes as you say (never driven a Nano), the Nano offsets that with its superior crash safety. As I see it, its a tie on the safety angle.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

1) Is the hype and buzz for the Nano justified? Considering that its not a 'Rs.1 lakh car' (the marketing strategy TATA employed) and for the price its asking, it has some serious flaws (some do not regard Nano as a 'proper car' in this very forum).

In a country where a 125 CC two wheeler sells for Rs. 40000, no sane person would expect a top end version of a car to be sold for 1 lakhs(in a country where inflation is in double digits). Is the buzz for Nano justified? THis can be answered in two ways.

1) How has the market reacted to it? Bajaj-Nissan, Hyundai, GM already started working on the competitor. Infact Bajaj has already said it is finding it very difficult to stick to the 1 lakh price. This itself shows Tata has created or recreated a new segment in India. Well, how much does a auto rick cost in India? Tata already received requests from various countries for sale.

2) Sale numbers: Wait and see. Already M800 is dying a slow death.

On the proper car: This is some thing I posted in a different thread.

I see a lot of people passing comments like this. I live in a market where hatchbacks are not considered as cars(some say they are toy cars). I ask all these people passing this comments, did you go through the owner ship reports by nano owners. Answer for the most will be a No. IF yes, why is that no one feels the same way as you did. These Nano owners(from the ownership reports) are proud of their baby the same way as a BMW or a Audi owner. Why?

A person driving a Vista or a Swift may not feel Nano is a complete car. Manza owners may feel the same about Vista or Swift. Like City or Altis about Manza. Audi or BMW about City. Ferrari about BMW or Audi. Every one wants to drive a Ferrari but they cannot afford it. For me it makes perfect sense if a Ferrari or a BMW owner says Nano is not complete car. But some of the persons passing that statement happen to own a 800 or a Alto. What makes you think the extra 2 inches makes you feel your car is big or Safe?

In a market where majority of sales come from hatchbacks(majority with out airbags) I don't understand what makes poeple pass that comment.

There are so many cars in Indian which are not safer or not much bigger than Nano. But we only complain about Nano.

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

2) As the 800 is the original 'people's car', will Nano be as legendary for Indian auto-industry as 800 was/is? Also, considering that both the cars has a common objective (affordable to the masses), does Nano succeed in being a worthy alternative to the original people's car?

This is like comparing apples and oranges. It's like saying who is better sachin or gavaskar? When M800 was introduced, it barely had any competition. Maruti had indian government backing. One side they gave only Maruti licence to operate and other side did not allow any foriegn company to operate. That cannot be said of Nano. Every one is free to participate but only few showed the guts. Lets see if any of them will be successful. How many models we had in Hatch segment when M800 was released and how many we have now?

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

The discussions here, as you must have noticed, are being done keeping in mind the needs of potential buyers who will be looking for their first car.

Don't assume that you can keep in mind the needs of potential buyers. You never can. If you have to you have to be one with only two lakh in hand and nothing else. So only a potential buyer can say if Nano is a proper car or not. Only potential buyers will decide if Nano will prevail.

[ron_9191]

My vote goes to my very first car, the evergreen Maruti 800. May be the Tata Nano might be made with the latest technology. But I bet it is never going to come close to the M800 with reliability or serviceability. The Nano may be cheap, but to me VFM is always a Maruti 800.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

How many crashed nanos have you seen? Also, how many Nanos you see out on highways? Do you have any valid stats or is it merely your assumption?

Don't you contradict your self? In this post itself you say Nano is more safer in a crash and you say mine are merely assumptions. There are some pictures of Nano in a accident on the thread I mentioned. In almost all the crashes M800 (even alto) was in, the impact was felt inside the cabin.

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

1) Overtaking in 800 is much safer than in Nano, because it has more power and better acceleration. Also, unlike the Nano, Rev-limiter doesn't cut in abruptly.

2) Nano is far more bothered by cross-winds than 800.

3) Nano has a very small range, for a long highway run, one has to be sure of fuel-stops. Also, that digi-fuel meter is prone to errors.

4) Above all, Nano has no disc brakes. 800's braking is poor, Nano's is even worse. Brake fade is in abundance and the way car sways to one side is very discouraging.

How does point 1 make a car safer? Point 2: Did you drive both M800 and Nano at the same speed and in similar conditions? Is that digi-fuel meter thing an assumption? Even if it is prone to error, don't you think it will be fixed.

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

Also, if something is no longer available in market, doesn't mean it cant be compared to current models. Aren't OHC and NHC and ANHC still being compared on many threads? Do not people still compare OHC V-tec and Baleno?

Comparision is different and wanting to buy is different. Wanting to buy a car which is no longer available in your city is just like day dreaming.

Originally Posted by YC.BALENO.CHD

You haven't factored in the 30 K discounts that is on offer these days.

Well, M800 customers are saving 30000 on this 25 years old car Bcoz of Nano. They must thank Ratan Tata for that.


What I say here is not directed at anyone in particular.

Just like Mr.Suzuki himself people started wrting off Nano as not possible to make, it would be a three wheeler, it won't meet safety or emmision regulations etc. When the car is a reality they take shelter saying it's not a proper car. It's the same group of people who try to bang the car at every possible opportunity. Nano fire thread is one good example. Bashers filled the thread for 35 pages asking Tata to respond and finally when Tata did respond expect Supreme Baleno no one even had the courtesy to notice. This itself is enough to say there are enough suzuki's outthere who like to see the product die.