[Grafin]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Wow, that really is news. So all those car-cos giving dual airbags and even 6 airbags must be duffers. They could just concentrate on the structure and however severe the accident, no one is even injured.

The guy has a point.

Without modern design techniques and multiple crumple zones, air bags are of no major use. The air bags work effectively when there is least amount of force being transmitted to the driver/passenger from the impact.

I remember reading in a mag how a Land Rover Discovery in spite of having 6 air bags, was less safer than a Renault Megane in a crash.

So air bags whether in a M800 or an Amby wont make much of a difference if the body shell is the same old primitive one.

If you think the Nano with the air bag is safer than the M800 and without it, less safer, id say your mind out is not open to these facts.


Dont forget what car Lady Diana died if you are still in doubt.

At present, the Nano has not been proved to be safer than the M800 but truth be told, it will no way be inferior.

[Arkin evoisrevo]

Heard in the ACI forum that the Nano is now available OFF THE SHELF!!!
Autocar India Forum: Nano available off shelf
Not sure about the authenticity though.

[Grafin]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Yeah. But I also did some googling and even the glue-manufacturers acknowledge that it still will be years before we can have an automobile that stays together with just glue. Plus loads of other trade-offs linked to using glue. And all this is from the blog of the glue-manufacturer. I am not even looking at other viewpoints.

You wont find it if you check for it in the Fevicol website.

I can refer you a book in case you still dont find it online.

Even engine flywheels applications and motor assemblies are being dealt by metal adhesives these days.

It would be rather bigoted if you dont accept new age processes to be better than age old ones.

[Rahulkool]

^^ yeah i have seen this on discovery once, they had used glue to stick some pipe on a car and then lifted the car(it was some saloon). In this case if was found that glue was much better than the welding. I am not saying nano uses that glue or something, just stating the fact.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by Grafin

At present, the Nano has not been proved to be safer than the M800 but truth be told, it will no way be inferior.

Exactly what I mentioned in the Safety aspect some pages ago. I never said Nano is inferior on safety - all I said is we dont have concrete data to say that one is better than the other.

Originally Posted by Grafin

You wont find it if you check for it in the Fevicol website. It would be rather bigoted if you dont accept new age processes to be better than age old ones.

I did not know that Fevicol was used for glueing together the Nano.

I just quoted what was mentioned by one of the manufacturers dealing in auto-glue @
iLoctite.com Community ? replacing welding and riveting with Loctite adhesives | iLoctite community blog

And regarding accepting new processes, I believe in choice - you want it glued, go for it - I have no issues. But let me choose what I believe is good for me.

[Grafin]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I did not know that Fevicol was used for glueing together the Nano.

And regarding accepting new processes, I believe in choice - you want it glued, go for it - I have no issues. But let me choose what I believe is good for me.

I dont know that for a fact but thinking the bigoted way you do, id say yes


With modernization at its peak even Maruti may come up with the process, so there wont be a choice as such.

[airbender]

Originally Posted by longhorn

If Suzuki was allowed to import capital goods without paying import duty, they have exported enough number of Maruti 800's to meet their export obligations. I think that's fair enough.

Your logic is contrived. Government didnot give them subsidy because they are going to export. ANyhow M800 exports are very negligeble.

Originally Posted by longhorn

While you have brought up the subject, you should have also mentioned what the Tatas got for setting up their plant in Gujarat. While Suzuki got land at govt rates, the Gujarat govt acquired land and provided it to them at below market rates ie they got land at subsidised rates.

You even lack basic kowledge. Govt rates are far less than market rates in india. Actually Suzuki didnot pay anything for land. This is at time when all companies were charged hefty amounts for land buy.

Originally Posted by longhorn

Not the mention the tax breaks the govt has provided to the Nano plant. So let's keep a level playing field here.

Tax breaks given to tata were given to all other automakers in other states. AP offered even better tax breaks for Volkswagon. TN, Uttrakhand does the same thing. So it is a level playing field. Same cannot be said about maruti in 1980's.

Originally Posted by longhorn

The TN govt is a very industry friendly one. If they selected Gujarat over and above TN, one can only imagine the benefits they would have received.

Again your logic is contrived.

There is only one way to explain the logic in your posts: Stupid.
From now onwards, I am not going to reply to your posts unless I see some value.

[airbender]

@supremebaleno:I have said this before and I am saying this again. Read my post carefullly. You are not the only one i am talking to on this forum.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

We are discussing 2 cars in the Indian scenario - what relevance does Suzuki Global have here ? They are No.1 in the country I reside in and where I buy cars - more than enough for me.

I was only replying to this:

Originally Posted by drsnt

just out of curiosity where does suzuki stand in global sales?

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Yeah. But I also did some googling and even the glue-manufacturers acknowledge that it still will be years before we can have an automobile that stays together with just glue. Plus loads of other trade-offs linked to using glue. And all this is from the blog of the glue-manufacturer. I am not even looking at other viewpoints.

I did not really want to have the thread go OT - hence desisted from posting that. While we can discuss for ages as to whether glue is good or better than weld/rivets, we atleast know for a fact that all the cars running on our roads sans glue are anyway not falling apart - good enough for me.

You are answered again. This time by two members. For a change what about googling first and then posting than vice versa. If every one goes by logic in the bold letters above, there won't be any improvement in science and tech.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

AFAIK, in India, manufacturers give out prices along with the launch of the car. Nano was the first instance when price came even while the whole thing was just a concept, thereby creating expectations, which finally remained just that.

Tata motors never mentioned a price for Nano before the Launch. Even Ratan Tata himself mentioned it during Nano launch. Price was speculation by media and they took it as a chalange. Do you have any links to say Tata mentioned the price even before the launch?

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

As I said before I dont think anyone here cares whether Tata does charity or doles out money to the needy. And whether Maruti does that or not is also least of our concerns.

Even when I posted I mentioned it as OT. If you don't care ignore those lines. That is only for people who care.

There is nothing wrong in replying to ones post even if it's OT. If you don't like it that's not my problem.

Originally Posted by Grafin

The guy has a point.

Without modern design techniques and multiple crumple zones, air bags are of no major use.
I remember reading in a mag how a Land Rover Discovery in spite of having 6 air bags, was less safer than a Renault Megane in a crash.

So air bags whether in a M800 or an Amby wont make much of a difference if the body shell is the same old primitive one.

Ofcourse he does. Only if people are wise enough to notice it. Tata had made a official statement at that time making clear the Nano tested is the indian version Nano with Airbags. Praveen's point is very valid.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

And the Nano ? It takes any accident and comes out unscathed ? Please spare us the sarcasm because given their reputation for quality (lack of it, actually) the easiest brand to diss is Tata.

No car comes out unscathed in an accident.

Originally Posted by praveen_n

Yes lets talk about what is currently available.The new m800 (astar for us Indians) cannot get a good rating as nano and this is no if's and but's? People are speculating that a m800 will be safer with out having a test result of 800 and we are saying nano is safe based on test results.So who is mentioning if's and but's? (please dont bring up the European version and indian version thingy...).If somone wants to prove M800 is good show me the results.I am saying nano is better only based on the facts that we have as of now.

Brother, you hit the nail right on the head. Comparo between Indian version nano with airbags and europian Astar. IF europian Astar cannot beat Nano what are the chances of a indian Astar? And now coming to 30 year old M800? Before anyone starts typing, the minimum Suzuki would have done to the indian one to make it to Europe standard is to add a airbag. So that is a very valid comparo. But still except some people to reply back on this.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I would compare the Nano against the M800, the rick-like exhaust note not withstanding. But if you think the Nano is to be compared against a rick, well what can I say. Go ahead. Maybe you must be right.

Don't you think you are sounding arrogant on this one. Both M800 and rick, I am not comparing the product but the price. You are right in saying Nano is not a replacement for a rick. But I say Nano is not a replacement for a 30 year old M800 which is dying a slow death. Tata Motors would not have invested billions of dollars to replace a car which sells 2000 units per month. M800 is not sold in Chennai any more. So how can you compare a product(not price) which is not sold in your area to something which is sold.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

From the authoritative way you say as to which car will get certified and which will not, looks like you work for a certifying authority. No ifs and buts here - lets just talk about what is currently available. Unless you have personally crash-tested an M800 and Nano and the latter came a winner.

What ever praveen has quoted are results from europian safety tests. He is not a certifying authority but the data he points to is from a certifying authority.

[supremeBaleno]

Chill, man. The way you get angered when someone talks about Nano, makes it look like your future is at stake. Cool down. And while you are at it, would be good to mind your language too.

[Amartya]

^^ It is easy to get carried away with these discussions, and that's what happened here. But @airbender, you do have good points, but don't start addressing people in "bold" fonts and in a confrontational manner, it just makes for very unpleasant reading for everyone. I myself have been guilty of such outbursts too, and at that time some other forum members pointed it out and bought the discussion back on track.

At the end of the day, there is no way one can concretely prove whether the Nano is safer than the 800, simply because the 800's crash test data is not publicly available (neither is the Nano's for the Indian version). So it all boils down to individual thought processes, some people still think that the Ambassador is very safe, just because of the massive amount of metal, and that cannot be changed. In the end, it's about personal preferences, I personally would buy the Nano over the 800, SupremeBaleno would go for the 800, airbender for the Nano and so on.

What I actually find quite fascinating the the fact that adhesives have come a long way, and if Grafin can kindly share some data where there is a comparison of welded joints and adhesive based joints, it'll be a great learning experience for the whole forum.

[Arkin evoisrevo]

Getting back to the topic, here's the link:
Tata Nano available off the shelf now-Automobiles-Auto-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times
Courtesy: creativebala (ACI forum)

[longhorn]

Originally Posted by airbender

Your logic is contrived. Government didnot give them subsidy because they are going to export. ANyhow M800 exports are very negligeble.

M800 is not exported now, but they were being from right after the SS80 days. They continued to export it till at least 1995 if not later. So I don't think the exports were negligible though I don't have a figure that I could quote. I do not remember any other manufacturer having exported their cars during this period.

Originally Posted by airbender

You even lack basic kowledge. Govt rates are far less than market rates in india. Actually Suzuki didnot pay anything for land. This is at time when all companies were charged hefty amounts for land buy.

Ok let me put it this way. The govt acquired land from private owners at GOVT rates and then sold that land at a SUBSIDISED rate to the Tatas. Hope you are clear now. And to top it, they(Gujarat govt) financed the amount that the Tatas had to pay for purchase of land at the rate of 1% per annum. That's cool aint it? And you call this level playing field even though there is no export commitment for the Nano.

Originally Posted by airbender

Tax breaks given to tata were given to all other automakers in other states. AP offered even better tax breaks for Volkswagon. TN, Uttrakhand does the same thing. So it is a level playing field. Same cannot be said about maruti in 1980's.

If you had read my post properly you would have understood that I have said that Maruti did get some concessions from the Govt in the initial stages but that cannot be held against them after 30 years especially when the govt held at least 50% stake in that company at the time of inception.

Originally Posted by airbender

Again your logic is contrived.

There is only one way to explain the logic in your posts: Stupid.
From now onwards, I am not going to reply to your posts unless I see some value.

Ok, since you are the wise guy here, pray kindly enlighten me on why they choose to head to Gujarat when their plan to set up their Nano plant in TN was almost finalized? If the tax breaks were the same, geographically speaking, it would have made more sense to set up their plant in TN since they already have one in Uttarkhand.

[Grafin]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Chill, man. The way you get angered when someone talks about Nano, makes it look like your future is at stake. Cool down. And while you are at it, would be good to mind your language too.

It is easy for anyone to get carried away and annoyed when you make reckless statements.


@longhorn

Suzuki was treated like a guest in India and given a lot a of perks. One glance at Wikipedia and everything becomes clear about their easy passage into India, free import of machinery and land acquirement.

How much ever Tata was helped by the Gujrat Govt, it wouldn't have matched up to the treatment Suzuki was given back in the days.

[shamanth]

I just want to comment on one observation. The sound of Nano is like Auto Rickshaw where as 800 sounds like a Car.

[supremeBaleno]

What reckless statement did anyone make here ? Please enlighten us. If you want to know what is reckless, look up your posts where you have made accusations of a personal nature (bigot) on me without knowing jack about me. Just because someone does not agree with your viewpoint does not make him a bigot.

Could have taken that up, but did not want to derail a serious discussion. So, please remove that log from your eyes before attempting to remove the splinter from other's eyes.

Originally Posted by shamanth

I just want to comment on one observation. The sound of Nano is like Auto Rickshaw where as 800 sounds like a Car.

Must be some intentional feature, which aids driveability or FE or maybe safety, given that the Nano is the last word in cutting-edge automotive technology.