The CRDx Factor ?!?

man23ish · 21st June 2005, 20:59

Hello TBHPians,

Recently there have been quite a few vehicles that have been launched with the CRDI technology. First ones that come to mind are the following amongst others.

1> Mahindra Scorpio.
2> Hyundai Accent.

I would like to know the difference in performance, F.E, NVH-levels, Maintenance schedules of the Non-CRDI vis-a-vis CRDI engines..

The reason, i am really asking this question is that the Safari CRDI is about to be launched within the next 2-3 months. so i am doing my homework and getting the facts straight. I know that the current Safari-Diesel gives around 6-8 kmpl and has around 89BHP.. I need similar figures about the other CRDI and IDI cars..

Gears,
Manish.

Mpower · 21st June 2005, 22:45

I think your question should be IDI vs DI.

CRDi is not what makes a great diesel. Its DI....direct injection.

Has to have a high pressure DI fuel system with a turbo. Common Rail is just one of the types of DI. Skoda Octavia dosent have
DI and is still a class leading engine

EVO6 · 22nd June 2005, 01:51

IMO....
CRDI has better performance as compared to a TDI engine in the same class...
FE is better in TDI which is obviously being proved by the Octavia...
Maintainence is about the same since it is just a type of injection but sometimes there could be problems related to the high pressure pump in a CRDI where pressures are in excess of 1400.
Bad fuel could have problems...
Others opinions are welcome ...

johnjacob · 22nd June 2005, 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mpower

Common Rail is just one of the types of DI.

Others being....
1. Pump Duse (PD) used in the latest VW group diesels (including Skodas)
2. Jet Turbo DIesel (JTD) used in the latest Fiat diesels (these are being licensed to Maruti and will appear in Maruti's here by 2007).

Anyone know of any others?

Steeroid · 22nd June 2005, 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnjacob

Others being....
1. Pump Duse (PD) used in the latest VW group diesels (including Skodas)
2. Jet Turbo DIesel (JTD) used in the latest Fiat diesels (these are being licensed to Maruti and will appear in Maruti's here by 2007).

Anyone know of any others?

I thought these were proprietory names used by these manufacturers for their Common Rail diesel engines. Please confirm if these are altogether different types of diesel injection...

DIs have been around for a while now (the humble Mahindra uses a DI engine, as do most of the Tata trucks, particularly the low-tonnage trucks like the 407, 709, et al), what is new is the mode of fuel delivery which is where the Common Rail comes in.

Indirect Injection diesels required a 'pre-combustion' chamber that 'warmed' the fuel before it was injected into the cylinders. These engines were less efficient in terms of power output, and were quieter than the Direct Injection diesels which were used primarily for commercial applications (Trucks and Tractors) because they were pretty noisy.

Common Rail fuel injection was developed for Direct Injection diesels to maximise efficiency and increase refinement. This technology, as far as I know, is used by different manufacturers who have given their own names like CRDi, CRDe, D4D, et al to the engines to differentiate them from their other DI and IDI engines.

So are JTD and Pump Duesse different names for the same technology? Please clarify.

man23ish · 22nd June 2005, 11:54

I agree with steeroid.. The common rail is used to inject the fuel at a very high pressure into the cylinder.. Thereby maximising fuel usage and leading to good emission control and improving the overall fuel efficiency..

I agree that the thread name could have been IDI vs DI or CRDI.. But there are a few manufacturers who have both the IDI as well as the CRDI engines and i needed to get the numbers for the IDI as well as the CRDI engines..

Anybody who can provide the numbers in terms of BHP, KMPL for the CRDI vs IDI vs DI engines..

Gears,

veyron1 · 22nd June 2005, 11:57

Quote:

Originally posted by man23ish
I know that the current Safari-Diesel gives around 6-8 kmpl and has around 89BHP

errr.... that's 8-10 kmpl....and 90 bhp......

Quote:

Originally posted by johnjacob

Anyone know of any others?

i-Ctd-i is another one... (intellingent common-rail turbo; going to-be used in hondas-developments and fine tuning is underway, for an 2.2 i-ctd-i accord; the variant is currently on sale;i think; but a latest version is around the block..)... but all the jargon ends up defining similar mechanisms- high pressure direct injection fuel delivery systems with common rails...

Quote:

Originally posted by mpower

Skoda Octavia dosent have DI

i think you meant CRD-i.. the octavia is a DI- but if the 1.9 litre powerplant had CRD-i, then it would have been even better- the pumpe' dusse' system used in the octavia's L&K version, pumps out 110 bhp (in the foreign version- the indian L&K doesn't have pumpe' dusse')..!! but for an efficiency comparo, the crdi elantra would be a more appropriate contender- 1991 cc crdi elantra engine pumps out 112 bhp/ 250 nm torque, as compared to the octavia's 1896 cc, DI, 90 bhp, 215nm engine.

there's only a difference of 95 cc between the two- and a hefty 22bhp and 35 nm...!!! of course, due to elantra's gearing, she loses out in the F.E and performance arena, but enginewise, the elantra is superior, due to it's CRD-i technology....

and evo, the latest generation crd-i 's pump out fuel at pressures in excess of 1600 bar... (more than 22000 psi..!!!)..he..he..

all in all, a crd-i is way better than a normal direct injection...IMHO....!!

veyron1 · 22nd June 2005, 12:09

Quote:

originally posted by steeroid

I thought these were proprietory names used by these manufacturers for their Common Rail diesel engines. Please confirm if these are altogether different types of diesel injection...

you are right, steeroid, pumpe'dusse' is just another variant of the crd-i generation, and is a name used (and patented) by skoda...the pumpe' dusse', i-ctd-i, jtd, etc, ARE proprietory names used by their respective manufacturers- they are all just different forms of direct injection...

in pumpe' dusse' there's an additional unit which monitors the injection, increases the pressure, and injects uniform, atomised fuel...that's it...

shravan316 · 22nd June 2005, 18:37

Well, from what i've read about pump 'dusse' technology of VW, the fuel pressure is built just prior to every injection, while in CRDi the pressure is built and kept constant in a common rail.. when the fuel is needed, the pressurised fuel is injected into the cylinder. And also, from what i've read the pump 'dusse' system develops higher pressure than the CRDi system.

Mpower · 22nd June 2005, 19:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by veyron1

i think you meant CRD-i.....

Got me there. Yes I meant CRDi. Need to proof-read.

There are basically 3 types of DI systems

1. CRDi (one fuel pump and one electronic injector per cylinder feeding off a pressurized rail that is shared by all the cylinders)
2. PD (one mini fuel pump cum injector per cyliner operated by the camshaft !!).........nothing new all heavy trucks have had this including the Volvo FH series in India.

3. Rotary pump & Injector (no electronics involved both pressure and timing are mechanical)............407, 607, Scorpio Euro 2.

VW (indian octy), Ford (duratorq) and Peugeot (same) use a an oddball design that combines a rotary pump with an electronic injector. Havent studied the details

At the end of the day what makes a system competent is the injection pressure and the ability to inject multiple pilot injection to quieten the engine clatter.

man23ish · 23rd June 2005, 10:59

Hey, i just got to know that Scorpio CRDE has 115 BHP whereas the old TDI had 86BHP, now thats a jump of almost 30 BHP.. Does anybody know the FE for the Scorpio CRDE?? The Turbo one gave 11 in city and 14 on the highway.

man23ish · 23rd June 2005, 11:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by veyron1

errr.... that's 8-10 kmpl....and 90 bhp......

Yeah, 8-10 kmpl is on the highways.. But in a city like bangalore you'll be lucky to get even 5kmpl.. For Mumbai 6-8kmpl might sound good..

Steeroid · 23rd June 2005, 12:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by man23ish

Hey, i just got to know that Scorpio CRDE has 115 BHP whereas the old TDI had 86BHP, now thats a jump of almost 30 BHP.. Does anybody know the FE for the Scorpio CRDE?? The Turbo one gave 11 in city and 14 on the highway.

The 86 bhp TDI one is probably the cheaper version without the Turbo. The one with the Turbo does about 102 bhp, if I'm not mistaken.

man23ish · 23rd June 2005, 13:54

Hey, Mico is planning on a large scale CRDI induction in India..

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...26,curpg-1.cms

This is good news for TBHP.. eh ??

Manish.

man23ish · 23rd June 2005, 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeroid

The 86 bhp TDI one is probably the cheaper version without the Turbo. The one with the Turbo does about 102 bhp, if I'm not mistaken.

I think you are right. What is the FE mark on the Turbo??

Manish

21st June 2005, 20:59	#1
man23ish BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 626 Thanked: 18 Times	The CRDx Factor ?!? Hello TBHPians, Recently there have been quite a few vehicles that have been launched with the CRDI technology. First ones that come to mind are the following amongst others. 1> Mahindra Scorpio. 2> Hyundai Accent. I would like to know the difference in performance, F.E, NVH-levels, Maintenance schedules of the Non-CRDI vis-a-vis CRDI engines.. The reason, i am really asking this question is that the Safari CRDI is about to be launched within the next 2-3 months. so i am doing my homework and getting the facts straight. I know that the current Safari-Diesel gives around 6-8 kmpl and has around 89BHP.. I need similar figures about the other CRDI and IDI cars.. Gears, Manish.
	() Thanks

21st June 2005, 22:45	#2
Mpower Senior - BHPian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 10,409 Thanked: 1,730 Times View My Garage	I think your question should be IDI vs DI. CRDi is not what makes a great diesel. Its DI....direct injection. Has to have a high pressure DI fuel system with a turbo. Common Rail is just one of the types of DI. Skoda Octavia dosent have DI and is still a class leading engine
	() Thanks

22nd June 2005, 01:51	#3
EVO6 BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pune Posts: 488 Thanked: 11 Times	IMO.... CRDI has better performance as compared to a TDI engine in the same class... FE is better in TDI which is obviously being proved by the Octavia... Maintainence is about the same since it is just a type of injection but sometimes there could be problems related to the high pressure pump in a CRDI where pressures are in excess of 1400. Bad fuel could have problems... Others opinions are welcome ...
	() Thanks

22nd June 2005, 11:54	#6
man23ish BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 626 Thanked: 18 Times	I agree with steeroid.. The common rail is used to inject the fuel at a very high pressure into the cylinder.. Thereby maximising fuel usage and leading to good emission control and improving the overall fuel efficiency.. I agree that the thread name could have been IDI vs DI or CRDI.. But there are a few manufacturers who have both the IDI as well as the CRDI engines and i needed to get the numbers for the IDI as well as the CRDI engines.. Anybody who can provide the numbers in terms of BHP, KMPL for the CRDI vs IDI vs DI engines.. Gears,
	() Thanks

22nd June 2005, 18:37	#9
shravan316 Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Bangalore Posts: 1,029 Thanked: 9 Times	Well, from what i've read about pump 'dusse' technology of VW, the fuel pressure is built just prior to every injection, while in CRDi the pressure is built and kept constant in a common rail.. when the fuel is needed, the pressurised fuel is injected into the cylinder. And also, from what i've read the pump 'dusse' system develops higher pressure than the CRDi system.
	() Thanks

23rd June 2005, 10:59	#11
man23ish BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 626 Thanked: 18 Times	Hey, i just got to know that Scorpio CRDE has 115 BHP whereas the old TDI had 86BHP, now thats a jump of almost 30 BHP.. Does anybody know the FE for the Scorpio CRDE?? The Turbo one gave 11 in city and 14 on the highway.
	() Thanks

23rd June 2005, 13:54	#14
man23ish BHPian Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Bangalore Posts: 626 Thanked: 18 Times	Hey, Mico is planning on a large scale CRDI induction in India.. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...26,curpg-1.cms This is good news for TBHP.. eh ?? Manish.
	() Thanks