[1-Testosterone]

aaggoswami, I think the perception with these BIG SUV's will change soon enough. What we're witnessing is just the Intitial Euphoria 90% of the owners buy these as ego massager. In my friend circle itself, 8 out of 10 have had enjoyed 7 seaters like Ford Endy, Pajero and Captiva till yet. Now they want to switch to compact 5 seater SUV's with car like dynamics and plethora of equipment. According to them, it's pain to maneuver these big and impractical vehicles in and around city as parking slots are hard to find and their turning radius is horrible. No doubt they're good for broken roads but how often one encounter these roads nowadays. Even for highways, many prefer CRV over Pajero, Endeavour and Fortuner. Roads are improving day by day and how often people for for sheer off roading? If Honda could price price it's CRV at 17-19 odd lacs today as "Made in India" unit, it will fly off the shelves once again!

[abk]

Originally Posted by R17

Also, if anyone's either seen or gotten pics of Tig undergoing testing on Indian roads, do share the same.

On Monday (10 Nov 09) afternoon I followed a Tiguan for a few Kms from the Ashram flyover to half way in the DND flyover (non-NCR folks: am talking about Delhi - NOIDA road). It had Delhi registration which made me think the car had been launched. Appears like I was wrong. Must have been imported.

If I can add - I was not much impressed by its actual looks as much as by its pictures. From behind it looks like a bulged out tank

[shatrughna]

Guess they are not planning to launch Tiguan here anytime soon in near future. They have shown Touareg ( likely in Dec 09) and Beetle - but no Tiguan in their ads today in Times.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...eg-beetle.html

[R17]

Im gonna refute a few points since Im a true German car enthusiast and Im in a forum of auto enthusiasts:-

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

1) Tiguan a true German SUV ? I think the correct term would be Crossover SUV...IIRC, Tiguan is fully independent suspension all round. While this is good for on road dynamics and driving, its not the best for off-roading. So in any case, Tiguan is not a true SUV...

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

Yea, Im pretty sure Im not getting the point here - The Tiguan is a "crossover SUV". So is the CRV. And the Tucson, the Captiva, even the BMW X3 for that matter. So the Tig is as much of a genuine SUV as most of the other solutions offered in this class in India - or anywhere in the world.

Tiguan is based on A5 platform ( also called PQ35 ) which is the base for Laura also ( Laura is second generation Octavia )...Next, Fortuner may be based on IMV platform, but it has its own positive points. Innova is based on same platform and it certainly is quite good without doubt.

Youre affirming my point by highlighting the fact that the Fortuner is based on the Innova's IMV platform. Its ok for a 10 Lakh MUV developed for India, Thailand and rest of the 3rd world countries but with all due respect, it doesnt hold a candle to the A5 platform.

Captiva, though Korean rebadged is a very competent product with Italian ( VM Motori ) RA 420 motor. It has scored 4/5 in ENCAP.


Btw, the Hyundai i10, the Hyundai Getz, the Suzuki Ritz have all scored 4 stars. Meanwhile, even the Punto and the i20 have scored 5 stars. On the other hand, Id like to know of any other vehicle in India (including all the Mercs, Volvos, BMWs etc) which has aced all the 3 crash tests including the roof crush test.

About German engineering, I doubt that they are really reliable. Fabia that is sold in India is based on PQ24, also called A04. Its reliability is well discussed on TBHP. Clearly, German engineering is not the word that will bring in buyers. Even Passat faces issues with DSG, Skoda Superb has problems, Fabia has problems. I dont call it reliable engineering.

Engineering integrity doesnt start and end with reliability. By that definition, the Maruti 800 has perhaps the highest engineering integrity in the world. Developing the most innovative safety products, the sweetest handling cars, the soundest structural solutions are some of the USPs that 'German Engineering' provides.

2) Tiguan will not be the best till M class level. LC Prado comes in between. The issue of engineering that offers reliability comes in. Jetta diesel motor drinks engine oil, Passat's motor has good appetite for engine oil. About reliability issues, there is quite a bit of discussion that has taken place. So the engineering, I think, is either lacking or is not suitable for India or they did not care to test the cars in India. Calling this car as the best engineered car till M class its not something I can digest.

Umm...How much does the Prado cost? Last I checked, it retails for 55ish on-road of Bombay. How much does the Merc M cost? A few lakh more maybe....Now, How much would the Tiguan probably cost?...Right then.

Also, if the German cars were either lacking in engg, or unsuitable or untested for Indian roads, the Mercs, BMWs, Audis etc wouldnt be the gods of our world's automotive landscape. And while on the subject of reliability, I cant recollect any protracted session of complaints about the Jetta or the Passat drinking excess oil, every brand draws poor experiences from a small set of owners - not that I think 'drinking engine oil' is a sin big enough to label these cars chronically unreliable.

At the end of the day, for the given price, others will offer more space and practicality than Tiguan. That is what I think. Add to that difference of 5 and 7 seats.

I think the mentality of the buyer in this segment is he wants a classy product above all other things. The Merc C is neither terribly spacious nor practical - its doing ok though.

[ACM]

1) I was showing my wife the VW advt in TOI yesterday, as I was browsing though he comment was am sure you will not again buy anything else from this group. (My Laura has had issues and the spares are all marked VW & Audi).

2) Next she saw the Tiguan and he comment on just seeing it was - though you can buy that one.

[ranc]

Originally Posted by ACM

1) I was showing my wife the VW advt in TOI yesterday, as I was browsing though he comment was am sure you will not again buy anything else from this group. (My Laura has had issues and the spares are all marked VW & Audi).

2) Next she saw the Tiguan and he comment on just seeing it was - though you can buy that one.

Good one, now you know where the fairer sex thinks from, straight from the heart I guess.

[aaggoswami]

Originally Posted by R17

Im gonna refute a few points since Im a true German car enthusiast and Im in a forum of auto enthusiasts:-

1) Yea, Im pretty sure Im not getting the point here - The Tiguan is a "crossover SUV". So is the CRV. And the Tucson, the Captiva, even the BMW X3 for that matter. So the Tig is as much of a genuine SUV as most of the other solutions offered in this class in India - or anywhere in the world.

2) Youre affirming my point by highlighting the fact that the Fortuner is based on the Innova's IMV platform. Its ok for a 10 Lakh MUV developed for India, Thailand and rest of the 3rd world countries but with all due respect, it doesnt hold a candle to the A5 platform.

3) Btw, the Hyundai i10, the Hyundai Getz, the Suzuki Ritz have all scored 4 stars. Meanwhile, even the Punto and the i20 have scored 5 stars. On the other hand, Id like to know of any other vehicle in India (including all the Mercs, Volvos, BMWs etc) which has aced all the 3 crash tests including the roof crush test.

4) Engineering integrity doesnt start and end with reliability. By that definition, the Maruti 800 has perhaps the highest engineering integrity in the world. Developing the most innovative safety products, the sweetest handling cars, the soundest structural solutions are some of the USPs that 'German Engineering' provides.

5) Also, if the German cars were either lacking in engg, or unsuitable or untested for Indian roads, the Mercs, BMWs, Audis etc wouldnt be the gods of our world's automotive landscape. And while on the subject of reliability, I cant recollect any protracted session of complaints about the Jetta or the Passat drinking excess oil, every brand draws poor experiences from a small set of owners - not that I think 'drinking engine oil' is a sin big enough to label these cars chronically unreliable.

1) And here is where the fortuner is better. Thanks to its design, it can do offroading. So in front of Fortuner ( and even GV ), Tiguan is not a genuine SUV. In the face of cars like Captiva and CR-V, Tiguan holds head high as they are also softroaders and not true SUV. But fortuner is thanks to its design and overall proportions.

2) Depends on application. IIRC, some Fortuer crew cabs are sold as hilux in developed markets. So overall, I think that as an SUV that can handle offroading better, A5 is not as good as IMV which was specifically developed to handle rough roads,etc. But for on road dynamics, obviously Tiguan, Crv, Outlander are better. Tiguan is less than 1700mm in height, where as Fortuer is above 1800mm ( high set car as its SUV ) so its obvious that when the products were developed, different criteria were set for both of these vehicles.

3) My point here was that Tiguan does not hold a significant advantage here as competition has come up in standards.

4) But it does include reliability, right ? In my book atleast, reliability is included in engineering. Any car has to be engineered such that it is reliable. I know that the aspect of safety is quite important too along with various ( a huge number ) of parameters. But reliability cannot be ignored at any cost in engineering of any car. As far as handling goes, althought Europeans are ahead, the margin again is not very high.

The safety aspect again, the Japs have caught up. As far as handling goes, they are coming up too. CRV ( and upto a lesser extent the Outlander ) has good good handling. In case of small cars and sedans, Swift, SX4, Civic, Lancer Cedia, Fiesta ( US car maker! ) have good handling.

5) I have read in TBHP itself about these car makers facing one or the other issue with their products. And on the net too, I have read about the same. And the oil drinking habits were there on ACI ( AutoCar India ) itself. There is a thread about Passat's DSG giving trouble. Superb has similar issue IIRC.

Moreover, for Russian quereis reveiced by Skoda, they did admit there is some problem, but for India, Skoda group just bluntly replied that its an issue between Skoda India and the customer.

In short, my points are :

1) The advantage regarding engineering is not very high for VW.

2) Reliability has to be a part of their products which includes Skoda products too. Fabia, Supberb, Passat are examples of what I am trying to say.

3) The attitude of VW. They are not very high above average car makers. They are trying to prove to Indians that they are the best car makers in the world, like premium car makers. In reality they are not the best car makers IMHO.

4) Failure to sort out current issue. Skoda is part of VW and ensuring good A.S & S. is responsibility of car maker. VW has conveniently escaped from this.

[ACM]

R17 vs Aaggoswami

i.e. Toyota vs VW or Japs vs Germans.

The points on both side are very compeling and can be argued to an even more detailed extent.

Keeping the brands and predigree appart: and focusing only on the cars itself:

The Toyota fortuner is and will be without doubt more reliable vs the VW Tiguan. But that is more due to the heavy levels of highend equipment and creature comforts that the Tiguan comes with.

It is know to all of us that the latest gen of German and Eurpoean cars with the latest tech have all had niggling issues. The DSG Gearbox with DMF Clutch are know to have issues as also certain turbo components.

The Fortuner plays safe with relatively proven tech and even the 4WD mode change button is a manual lever. It simply has so much lesser in terms of features that can go wrong. For that matter even the captiva has a lot of stuff that can and will go wrong from time to time. The Tiguan may do well if priced aggresively like the superb / laura but if it goes the CRV route it will fail. The Captiva like the Tiguan is a softroader and is doing fairly well but is hit by the fortuner effect, but more imptly is a proper 7 seater vs tiguan 5 seats and that will pull it down to yeti class to some extent. The fortuner addresses a specific need that the Tiguan will not replace or take market share from so there is space for both - a different space. They may end up being the same price band but frankly so are the Endy, fortuner and Captiva, but then all address a different need.

[jp2u]

Volkswagen Touareg is one of the most popular high end sports utility vehicles that carrys a 5-star rating from IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) in terms of safety features

Possible Launch date is december 09

[Dose]

Originally Posted by jp2u

Volkswagen Touareg is one of the most popular high end sports utility vehicles that carrys a 5-star rating from IIHS (Insurance Institute for Highway Safety) in terms of safety features

Wrong on two counts. First, the IIHS does not give star ratings. Second, the Touareg has not been tested by the IIHS.

[ACM]

so VW is already advertising all the cars - THAT IT WONT SELL IN LARGE NUMBERS - - ALL FOR A BRAND IMAGE - and not a mention of the Polo - THAT IT WILL ATTEMPT TO SELL IN LARGE NUMBERS -

[ackyash]

Just drove a VW Tiguan (belongs to a cousin) in UK earlier this month and absolutely loved it. It was the loaded diesel version with auto box, leather, touchscreen navigation, bi-xenons, etc pretty much the works.

For someone like me who wants a diesel softroader with auto transmission and of a manageble size (price less than 25 lacs), currently options are lmited only to Captiva or X-trail. I wouldn't even compare Tiguan to Fortuner or Endevaour (different types of vehciles all together)
The way Honda is panning out, even if they do launch a diesel CRV in the future it would probably be approaching 30 lacs.


For a fully loaded Tiguan price should be less than 25 lacs IMO.

So I called VW India and enquired about Tiguan. Someone from VW was kind enough to call me back. I was informed that the production of Tiguan is very limited and demand in Europe and USA far outstrips current production capacity and India is very low on the list. He said realistically it would be 2010 end or maybe even 2011 before India gets Tiguan. I'm unhappy now.

[imp!]

Hi Guys,

For the last two years or so, there have been rumors that the Tiguan will make it here. I read in the papers that VW will be releasing the Tiguan in India sometime this year. How likely is this? does any one have any information regarding this?

cheers!
imp!

[oops]

Sorry to say but VW has alot more to do this year than to launch Tiguan.

VW is focussing on Polo first, then Golf and Polo Sedan and then by the end of 2010, they will launch Phaeton.
So, don't even expect Tiguan earlier than end of 2011 or early 2012.

[S350L-E240]

I'll tell you what, I don't know if this car will come to India or no but having driven it for few days in the US I can tell you one thing at it's price point there are far better cars you can buy.

It's good no doubt but nothing too exciting when you consider it's price compared to competition and believe me when it's priced close to Fortuner / Endevour etc. it will find very few buyers in India. So unless VW just wants to sell products in small quantities like the Beetle and Toureg I don't think they will launch the Tiguan anytime soon.