[amit]

Originally Posted by AbhiJ

Trust me, if Fiat had the ability/knowhow to make the Linea a 100 kgs lighter they would immediately do so.

You mean to say that you know for sure that Fiat does not have the ability to design lighter cars?! Have you worked with them to make a statement like that? Designing lighter cars is not rocket science and trust me, it's very well within Fiat's engineering expertise to make a 1000kg Punto or Linea.

Instead of making statements like that have you stopped to think that maybe Fiat designs cars like that? Maybe it's in their DNA to make heavy cars? For example, how many here know that the Punto is the only hatchback, premium or otherwise, (see Jazz and Fabia pictures for proof) to come with a metal seat back in the rear seats. That's a safety feature. Yes, it adds weight and reduces fuel efficiency by maybe 0.05kmpl. Nice to know that there is at least one company in India that thinks it's owner's lives are more valueable then Rs.0.25.

The SX4 has terrific high speed stability

Can you define high speed? The SX4 makes you nervous beyond 100kmph. Beyond 120kmph all hell breaks loose and the driver is at the edge of the seat holding the steering tight to stop the car from darting all over the road. Sure, if you upgrade from a Nano or M800, the SX4 will feel great at high speeds. If you find SX4 has terrific high speed stability then you will go to sleep at the Punto / Linea steering at 150knph and still reach your destination safely!

Sorry for going off topic. This thread is about ANHC. Please continue the entertaining discussion.

[AbhiJ]

Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez

I think you missed a bit of humour there.

my bad...

crazy thread ...

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by pmbabu

Indians prefer, in no particular order,
High FE
Lighter and slick controls : what about Indica?
High reliability Agreed
Easy access to lower service costs What about Skoda?
Easy access to spares that are relatively cheaper Again why Skoda?
Good resale value - If a car is selling well, it will have good resale. The best seller in the segment almost always has the best resale.

My replies in bold.

Originally Posted by pmbabu

Now there are some brands that offer ALL of the above and we Indians lap up their offererings in loads. How will that make Indian car buyers lousy?

Where are the core values which actually build a car? Refinement, performance, build quality, ride and handling, Safety?

Originally Posted by pmbabu

Slightly OT. While fuel efficiency remains one of the biggest factors the lower side of 10lacs, one cannot say that the success of i20 (over Punto, Jazz, Fusion, Fabia) is because of FE. IIRC, Punto ownership threads claim higher FE.

And does it strikes you that most of the new car ownerships threads on team-bhp are Puntos? The world outside team-bhp is different. For them Punto is a Fiat and i20 is a Hyundai. All said, I think after the Linea and Punto, people actually have started to look at Fiats in a positive way. Word of mouth publicity works like no other and I have come across people with zero automobile IQ come up to me and say Linea is an awesome car.

Originally Posted by pmbabu

True, but one cannot differentiate between "most reliable" and "not unreliable" easily.

None of the competitor cars are unreliable. For argument's sake I assumed City is the most reliable because everyone says so and I have no prior experience with the City.
But I find the 5k service interval for a petrol sedan absurd.

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by GTO

Out of curiousity, amongst the petrols, which car would be your choice Jaggu?

EDIT: Man i lost all the typing from first go!! Slightly long post, swalpa adjust!

Very honest reply, none of them. See i have used sedans for long (10-12 years) and somehow after the 1.6 L iKON nothing ever came near to the "feel good factor" while driving. I like stiff suspension, which can take bad roads at good speed. Stiff chassis and some amount of excitement from handling department.

I test drove almost all the cars available at that point of time (2007) before i decided for a hatch, which was closest to my kind of car set up. I know suspension is noisier in Swift, compared to competition but its darn tough and thats what matters for me at the end of the day. In that respect even iKON was rattle free but had higher suspension noise, thanks to the way in which it is set up.

Ok you might be wondering, why so much of beating around the bush and ga ga over iKON and all? well reason being, if i was forced to make a choice between the current option, then it would be very close fight between ANHC and SX4!

If not for the price (yeah i admit i have that indian mentality which counts feature for the price i paid), Honda might have been my choice! just for its looks (i love it!). I strongly believe in the theory; that Honda like to have a premium image in India and charges it, and takes Indian customers for a ride. No matter how good or bad their car is.

Ofcource its inability to take daily abuse would make it lose some points also. Ok here i admit that i dont have much info about A-NHC durability at this point of time, since the one i have access to is hardly 2 months old. But the previous 2 versions aged pretty fast, compared to the 2 SX4 with my colleagues. Let me explain, what i mean is the way in which the car feels; loose feeling, suspension/springs softened, which was very evident in older city's by 40k kms. On the other hand this sort of aging was not very evident in other makes. Hyundai's are set up as a boat and will remain a boat, Fiat is tough and i have never seen them sink.

So why SX4? one is close to 2 years and some 18k kms, when i last drove it (last thursday for 20 kms), felt as if its just been delivered from showroom, yup not even rattles, which MUL is know for otherwise? This inspite the fact that the car has done some good amount of highways and bad roads (coorg, kerala etc), not been serviced since 10k kms. Maybe the owner and driver are both careful. Ground clearance is awesome! None of the cars can vroom into our office car park area like this one! I think it really is an underdog which was never marketed well. In short i am slowly getting attracted to the otherwise funny looking sedan these days. Oh also am a sucker for white, and SX4 in white is pardonable, i see one in white often visiting our premises. Handling: well i really havent explored very high speed antiques in SX4, but the car felt ok at 100-120 kph and nothing seriously wrong, maybe better rubber?

See i would be confused as ever, so i will stay away from this sedan chase.

[Surprise]

My pick would be ANHC, especially after additions of ABS/Air Bag/Eye catching design... On service costs front, I have heard horrifying stories from friends who own high mileage Honda's & that is where my only hesitation would be.

Originally Posted by AbhiJ

Furthermore, weight has nothing to do with safety. Period.

I always wanted to know how much percentage the external metal parts in a vehicle consists of overall cars weight (approximately). I assume that thick metal transfer to better safety in comparison with flimsy metal part.. not sure whether my assumption is right here. Anyone?

[Jaggu]

Originally Posted by Surprise

I always wanted to know how much percentage the external metal parts in a vehicle consists of overall cars weight (approximately). I assume that thick metal transfer to better safety in comparison with flimsy metal part.. not sure whether my assumption is right here. Anyone?

Not really, gauge of the metal used will give you a "sense of security" but what really matters is, how strong the chassis is and how effective the crumple zones are. Thicker body sheets matter if one gets T-boned and stuff where chances of metal tear and passengers getting injured due to this are involved.

On the other hand thinner body panels might be useful in pedestrian safety and absorbing the impact (enhance crumble zone) and saving the passenger compartment from the impact in case of frontal collusion.

In short its a complex science and fine balance would be required to judge how safe the vehicle is. Thats where all the testing and rating comes into the picture.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

Sure, I have seen them both in ACI. Can dig them out (even posted in some thread before) I even expected the Linea rear legroom numbers in ACI to be wrong, but several bhpians confirmed issues with rear headroom and limited legroom! Check the other threads.

On our very own forum there are people who have bought the Linea and their first priority was decent space overall. I would again say that this is very subjective, different people want different things from their cars.

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

I expect so too. I am happy that Punto and Linea score high in NCAP. I only referred to higher weight rhetorically. It is a fact fact that the ratio of exterior dimensions of the Linea to the interior dimensions/space is lowest. So, for argument's sake, we could have chopped off 200mm from the Linea, and had lower weight and still met Euro NCAP if styling wasn't the key. Remember, you harped on the feather-weight ANHC, and I showed you that is inaccurate. If only 1 car out of 5 in the comparo weights 1240kg, the others can't be termed feather-weight( maybe that car is over-weight ?). I was trying to show you, Linea does not get high NCAP ratings due to weighing 140kg more - its again to do with passive and active safety features.
But you are obsessed with weight per se :-(

I am really happy that someone somewhere values style just as important as the overall car. I dont like cars which are built as commodities only to be sold with no emotional quotient.
Interiors room would depend on a lot of factors some which would be the size of the dashboard, the back seat angle, the length of the base of the front and rear seats and the likes.
The front and rear legroom number are just numbers. It all depends on what car you find more comfortable.

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

Well live on in your dreamland, buddy. Honda and Toyota design cars with safety high up in the priority list. Crumple zones save the occupants from harm, looks like you prefer the Sumo approach to safety. Hey the Sumo weighs more than the Linea (and costs less), surely it's better built and hence safer !

And Honda is not the only manufacturer that does it? Or is it? Lets keep Toyota out of this discussion. I firmly believe they make better cars than Honda.
There has to be a threshold when the crumple zones should kick in.... not when I hit a bicycle. I remember a thread on the forum which had accident pics of the City and we had the same discussion there as well. Can someone put up the link here.

Again please dont assume things. We are having a discussion and lets keep it logic driven and not rhetoric.

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

As I said, I drive a Lancer, and I know what handling is about. What I meant is the ANHC handling can be improved by getting rid of the narrow tyres which Honda has put to reduce cost and boost FE a notch more. Read the Tyre Bible, and you'll be enlightened about a level of upsizing that works (as a thumb rule) with the suspension setup of a car. Going from 175mm to 195mm is no problem in any car. I have done it myself on the Lancer, and its 16k km since, and my setup works like a charm. And there are 100's of bhpians who have done likewise. And FE does get impacted. Maybe 5-10% for me on highways (but I changed from 13" to 15" rims), while in city, I don't see any difference. The FE also depends on what tyres you replace with - tyres will lower rolling friction compensate for the higher weight etc. That said, Honda should have put 195mm rubber by default. In Singapore, they do have an option for 185mm on 16" wheels for eg.

I know all about it. But the suspension is there for something... something called ride and handling balance. You can get the handling but what about ride? In anycase fatter tyre option is there for every car you buy and a better handling car would become even better according to you but the difference would still be there... right?

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

LoL. You seem to be content if the Linea beats a bullock cart or a 800 !

No bullock cart or an 800 would do 150+ kmph safely. And most of the cars you mentioned would be beaten comprehensively as soon as the roads opens. How many times do you get to do 60 kmph in the City?
I am content with the overall car and not just the engine. Got it? Now LOL

Originally Posted by lancer_rit

Reality hurts eh ? Its just an indicator. A premium C segment sedan which has claims to be the best in the segment, can't be anemic and getting outrun by cars costing 4 lakhs less. Besides 0-60 is also an indication that 0-20, 0-40 kind of acceleration most likely takes longer which is an everyday situation. Look at the 115NM @ 4500rpm figure - that's key to poor driveability in the city. In any case, let me repeat - the 1.4 FIRE is an average engine, made worse by detuning for India, and unfit for the heavy Linea. It is, without doubt, the worst engine of the lot of cars being compared - and your hemming and hawing won't change facts.

And why would that be... I know all about it. And outrun... isnt that a little ambitious when you havent actually driven the car side by side or lived with it for a considerable time. Number are just numbers, it all depends how it feels driving in the real world.
I am not going to argue more on this because you will come up with still more numbers.... any idea of what a torque spread is?
Yes 1.4 Petrol in the Linea is an average engine bettered by all of the competition but the overall car isnt and thats is my point. Its also the cheapest by far and gives you maximum number of features inside out. You cant have everything... can you?

[pmbabu]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

Where are the core values which actually build a car? Refinement, performance, build quality, ride and handling, Safety?

LOL, do you mean to say no other car is built with these in mind? Wow!

And does it strikes you that most of the new car ownerships threads on team-bhp are Puntos?

Of course, I am aware of that. But.. see below

The world outside team-bhp is different.

Thanks for agreeing. Just because team-bhp is full of Punto threads, doesn't mean the world outside is full of them too. Lets watch the sales figures for a few more months.

For them Punto is a Fiat and i20 is a Hyundai. All said, I think after the Linea and Punto, people actually have started to look at Fiats in a positive way. Word of mouth publicity works like no other and I have come across people with zero automobile IQ come up to me and say Linea is an awesome car.

Yes, the looks and high FE claimed are making positive strides. But then, I feel your comments "zero automobile IQ", "lousy Indians" are tasteless.

None of the competitor cars are unreliable. For argument's sake I assumed City is the most reliable because everyone says so and I have no prior experience with the City.
But I find the 5k service interval for a petrol sedan absurd.

OK, what are the service intervals for petrol SX4, Verna? Would like to know if only Honda has 5K service interval.

[Guna]

Originally Posted by Surprise

I always wanted to know how much percentage the external metal parts in a vehicle consists of overall cars weight (approximately). I assume that thick metal transfer to better safety in comparison with flimsy metal part.. not sure whether my assumption is right here. Anyone?

Thick gauge doesn't necessarily translate in to better safety but it does help in indian conditions where the cars tend to accumulate dents due to minor incidents on the roads/parking spaces.
What matters in high speed accident is how effectively the crumble zone is designed, how the monocoque structure deflects the collision force and stays intact, presence of cross members on the doors, between the engine and passenger cabin etc etc.

[pmbabu]

Originally Posted by amit

You mean to say that you know for sure that Fiat does not have the ability to design lighter cars?! Have you worked with them to make a statement like that? Designing lighter cars is not rocket science and trust me, it's very well within Fiat's engineering expertise to make a 1000kg Punto or Linea.

Instead of making statements like that have you stopped to think that maybe Fiat designs cars like that? Maybe it's in their DNA to make heavy cars? For example, how many here know that the Punto is the only hatchback, premium or otherwise, (see Jazz and Fabia pictures for proof) to come with a metal seat back in the rear seats. That's a safety feature. Yes, it adds weight and reduces fuel efficiency by maybe 0.05kmpl. Nice to know that there is at least one company in India that thinks it's owner's lives are more valueable then Rs.0.25.

Great, why didn't the same company realize that Airbags and ABS are basic safety features that should be present in every car that is sold? Not so very nice to know for me at least. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pk versions are the least amount moving out of showrooms, just because they cost a very little bit more.

[coolboy007]

Originally Posted by Guna

Thick gauge doesn't necessarily translate in to better safety but it does help in indian conditions where the cars tend to accumulate dents due to minor incidents on the roads/parking spaces.
What matters is high speed accident is how effectively the crumble zone is

Guna,
Its not always the high speed shunts which we are talking of. Small accidents can even occur in the metros where noone would want their crumple zones to work and car be gone as a writeoff. One wants is just a small dent which can be removed by dry denting etc or minimal damages.
Am not talking of dents from motorcyclists as they can even occur on a car with thick gauge metals.

Eg. Accidents in India pics, i saw a Maruti Esteem hits a still Skoda Octavia. Esteem was blown off till the bonnet and fenders and all that Octavia had was a small dent on the bumper. We cant say here that Esteem's crumple zones worked well or it was designed like that whereas Octavia isnt safe.

Its not that those cars with a solid exterior body wont effectively activate crumple zones in an accident. The disadvantages of thick metal sheet is more like slower 0-100 timings and FE which matters most in India whereas only advantage could be more safety which also everyone doesnt accept as its just a passive safety feature and it cant be shown on paper.

Originally Posted by pmbabau

Great, why didn't the same company realize that Airbags and ABS are basic safety features that should be present in every car that is sold? Not so very nice to know for me at least.

ABS and Airbags as standard. Hmm, till a few weeks back we just had 1 model in the ANHC the SMT. We shouldnt forget that the diff between the Linea (the car in your context) base model and ANHC SMT is huge which shouldnt be neglected.
I applaud Honda for making safety as standard on all models but company strategies are different here, theres no base model for the ANHC and even if there is what will they remove from the car now?
Regarding E pks moving out less from the showrooms, maybe its case though we dont have concrete info.

[damodar]

After following this thread from the start my views are that any car in todays market will appeal to a certain number of buyers.Now a guy who owns a fiesta/linea/verna and is looking to buy Nano/800 will not compromise and go for the cheapest varient in these cars.He will look at which is the most comfortable car for him and resale maintainence cost will be secondary or not bother him very much.Like wise a person who owns/afford laura/jetta/civic and looking for the second car may go for the ANHC since brand/snob value counts for him.Now this person may even forgo the idea of buying the upper D segment cars for reasons like a)Lack of parking space b)Lower upfront cost etc.Obviously fuel efficiency is not a deal breaker for him.

Looking at the new ANHC owner reports one can see that most of them start praising the car starting with engine performance ,handling ,braking,safety. Fuel efficiency is qouted just for the sake of it many not bothered about a kpl here or there.

Now look at the ownership threads of Swift/Punto/Ritz all of them give priorty to fuel average.Where as they are willing to live with rattles ,poor braking and bad suspension.Now if you ask this set of people about their views on ANHC, for them it will look overpriced.

[McLaren Rulez]

Wasn't there a discussion a while back regarding heavier cars being safer? Correct me if I'm wrong but I was always of the opinion that a heavy car than a light one assuming all other safety features are equal. Obviously a Sumo isn't safe even though it is heavy because it has no real safety features compared to a modern sedan. But if two cars were similarly specced in terms of safety (crumple zones, airbags, etc.), then the heavy one is safer.

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by GTO

Exactly the situation with my OHC. While the design is extremely staid, the way that the interior has been screwed together, and the part quality itself, is of a tall order. The durability & ability to take abuse is segment best. Bring the competition in, and its only the Verna in contention here. Not the SX4 with its Swift like interiors (and quality), nor the Linea whose interiors have many rough edges.

Durability? I sat in a 36k kms old OHC when I was hunting for a small car for myself and it was Ok if the roads were smooth but show it some rough stuff and it made noises from everywhere. I was taken aback by the suspension setup in a car that costed as much as the City did those days. My benchmark was my friend's Opel Astra and another friend's Fiat Palio.

Originally Posted by GTO

Thanks, but your information is incorrect.

ANHC 116 BHP / 1100 kg = 105.45 power to weight.

OHC Vtec : 106 BHP / 985 BHP = 107.61 power to weight.

If I remember correctly the Vtec was 995 kgs. In anycase we also have to account for the increased torque. But then these are just numbers. I have not driven the older vtec but the new 1.5 litre engine is very good.

Originally Posted by GTO

Exactly my point. By C segment standards, the Linea is slow. In fact, the slowest of all competition.

Yes and I am not denying that but its not as bad as to ridicule the car completely. You cant ignore the value proposition as it gives you the maximum number of features for the least amount of money and best styling too. Then there are the intagibles like character and the emotional quotient.
The discussion was if the Honda City is overpriced and to me it is.

Originally Posted by GTO

Totally agreed. While the 5K service doesn't entail anything other than an oil change + air filter cleaning, its yet & definitely absurd. Honda should change this to 7500 kms.

Even a Wagon-R serviced at 7500 kms entails nothing more than an engine oil change and an air filter change. For all the talk of reliability, Honda wants to change the engine oil and air filter every 5k kms.
Even the Indica Quadrajet needs service every 10k kms and its diesel and runs on normal mineral oil.

Originally Posted by GTO

Xtreme, please refer to actual facts & sales figures before making such statements. In the 2nd & 3rd month of sales, the Jazz is now down to 1000 odd units. This is 1/2 of Hondas own expectations; the shoddy market performance is entirely down to its pricing.

Completely agree but does it deserve to sell even 1000 units at that price? Would it have been possible if it were Maruti Jazz or worse Fiat Jazz?

Originally Posted by GTO

European petrols are depreciation disasters. ANY European petrol, that's market reality. History has proven this over the last 10+ years.

I thought the original argument was only about the costs of keeping a car and the servicing costs.
Depreciation yes but the much higher initial outlay and then a service every 5ks would balance that out but that what I think. I know the market thinks otherwise.

Originally Posted by GTO

I'm glad we are, in effect, now repeating the same thing. The fact is, an overwhelming majority of the market sees MORE VALUE in the City than its direct (and cheaper) competition.

Yes and the brand name plays a huge role in it. And you have to give credit to Honda for the same because they caught the nerve of the market better with the original City.
A very average car with good reliability, good engine and fuel efficiency and it clicked with the masses. I dont consider myself to be a part of that group which is why I think City is overpriced.

Originally Posted by GTO

Don't miss it, that is a HUGE point. As a C220 owner myself, I have stated time & time again that the Accord is a FAR MORE sensible buy. Bigger, better ride quality, overall more comfortable, way superior reliability & cheaper cost of ownership. I am not biased toward the cars that I own or the brands that I like. Please look up previous discussions on this exact topic.

I know that and have read you unbiased reviews on your C-Class but you still bought the Merc and only you know why you still prefer it to the Accord. No amount of number or statistics would be able to justify what you feel when you are in your prized German possession. If there was a thread which said Accord was better because numbers and stats vehemently say so, would you agree. Atleast I wouldnt. Number are only for the academically inclined.

Originally Posted by GTO

It isn't. Fact is, the equipment level is the only flaw that most of the ANHCs critics find in it. There is not a single serious engineering / performance flaw in teh city. Since features matter so much to you, I'm sure you consider the Endeavour & Safari as superior SUVs to the Fortuner?

You have misunderstood me completely. I like the engine but I dont like the car overall. The finesses of a well built, properly sorted automobile is missing and it doesn't makes me feel special when I am driving it. The fact that it skimps on features too does it for me.

Originally Posted by GTO

Please don't argue for the heck of it. Refer to my "cost of ownership" article as well as Ajmats resale value thread. It will open up your eyes to the real cost of ownership. Even the most diehard Fiat fans have accepted that the ANHC is much cheaper to own than the petrol Verna or the petrol Linea.

And it all comes back to the resale value. Dont you see a trend here.

Originally Posted by GTO

Again, you need to update yourself with facts before commenting further. Once the initial surge of demand was over, Linea sales have settled at 900 cars a month. Compare that to 1,200 average of the SX4 or the 1400 average of the Verna and its amply clear as to which car is the worst selling.

What are sales figures for the year until this day? I dont care if it did well in certain months and in some it did not.
And you never mentioned if it was Verna diesel or the Verna Petrol who's doing the trick??

Originally Posted by GTO

Actually, there isn't a need to justify anything. The SX4 sells MORE than the Linea, even though it doesn't have a diesel option.

Yes I agree but in the end all that matters in the number of units sold. No one's stopping the others from launching a diesel sedan.
There might not be a need for the justification but its there already, in the form of since SX4 is only sold in petrol forms.

[sathee46]

This thread is becoming more and more interesting day by day, Why don't you add Fiesta to the comparison. Though you consider the fiesta is from a lower segment, it would give the City a run for it's money. I'm sure there has been enough requests to add fiesta in the equation.

It is the same forum where i read about the fiesta and it had helped me a lot in choosing the car. When it comes to a comparison having performance & handling IMO i feel it would take a few good points out of the ANHC and that would benefit many who are looking for a drivers car!!

P.S. It's not only because i own one, but the car a really capable C segmenter for the price. IMHO is feel the car is absolute VFM and will give a new perspective on the pricing debate

Originally Posted by benbsb29

GTO, when comparing the C segmenters, why was the Fiesta left out?

Originally Posted by sathee46

why was the Fiesta left out of the comparison. It would give a good competition as well.

Originally Posted by GTO

The Fiesta's size & pricing makes it more of a competitor to the Dzire than the larger Citys, Lineas, Vernas and SX4s. The interior confines are seriously limited. But sure, if you insist, I can work out a comparo including the Fiesta.

Originally Posted by oss

Fiesta is certainly larger than Dzire. It may not be as spaceous as City or Linea, but if Verna & SX4 can be included then Fiesta certainly needs to be considered as well.

Would appreciate a comparo including Fiesta.

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

How about adding Fiesta in the comparison. This is one car that is very nice car and most of us like the car too.

Originally Posted by frankmehta

And what about the Fiesta? Why not speak of it here?

Originally Posted by aaggoswami

The closest competitor to City is Fiesta that we are currently not discussing. Its got good performance, reasonable FE and overall the ride and handling is above G3HC.