[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by pmbabu

City still outsells every other car in its segment, Diesel variants included (and combined for the same brand, ex: Linea petrol+diesel), period.

Is that true. What about Dzire. Both are in the same mid-size segment even though City is lakhs more expensive (analogy of Alto and Jazz). City still outsells if you narrow the segment so that the statistics prove one way or the other.

[oops]

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

You can swap out the built in player with the dash kit for the E-MT which comes with no audio at all. Expensive to source from the dealer though.

E Variant has been discontinued since Aug

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

No idea about the NHC/OHC VTEC figures. The OHC was a really light weight vehicle, so I expect it to dispense the 0-100 in less than 10s.

OHC:
1.3: 0 to 100: 12.91sec (90Bhp)
1.5: 0 to 100: 10.68sec (100Bhp)
1.5 Vtec: 0 to 100: 10.01sec (106Bhp) (9.06L)

NHC:(ZX)
1.5: 0 to 100: 13.11sec (77Bhp)
1.5 Vtec: 0 to 100: 10.66sec (100) (Rs. 8.8L)

ANHC:(or City 09)
1.5 iVtec: 0 to 100: 10.28sec (116Bhp) (8.37L)

[pmbabu]

Originally Posted by vasudeva

Is that true. What about Dzire. Both are in the same mid-size segment even though City is lakhs more expensive (analogy of Alto and Jazz). City still outsells if you narrow the segment so that the statistics prove one way or the other.

Vasudeva, you are right. Our discussion was about the segment that doesn't include Indigo, Logan, Dzire, Ikon that are priced at way lower points catering to a different (and very price sensitive) market segment.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by jesal

if i want to buy a automatic car under 12 laks there is only one option the city.

Absolutely. Not to mention, the City is the only car from its segment to come equipped with a 5 speed automatic!

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

Before moving to Pricing/ Overpricing, I feel Honda has become increasingly reactive company. First it needed an SX4 to force it to start giving new features like Steering Mounted controls, ABS, Airbags etc.

Of course, pressure from the SX4 prompted Honda to offer the NHC with ABS / Airbags overnight, and I'm terribly happy because competition makes things better for all of us.

However, I do not accept your statement that Honda has only been reactive. They've also been extremely pro-active. Here is how:

1. Neither Honda nor Toyota sell outdated products. Unlike Fiat which still sells the 10 year old Palio, or Hyundai its decade old Accent, or Mitsubishi the Lancer or even Skoda with its Octavia. Honda & Toyota, alongwith Mercedes, BMW & Audi, ONLY sell the absolute latest products in India. The same that they do worldwide. Even though we very well know that the ol’ Qualis would still be a best seller today, and the previous gen practical / cheaper NHC would have strong sales each month.

2. Honda was the first to offer a 100 BHP sedan, variable valve tech, 5 speed auto in the C segment, a value-priced D segmenter, a previous best seller premium petrol SUV and now is one of the few manufacturers to sell ALL their cars in ALL variants standard with ABS & airbags.

Every manufacturer is pro-active as well as reactive. Even Maruti, nothing wrong in that.

Then it needed a Linea to start giving features like Chrome handles, Alloys etc.

More the overall competitive scenario than only the Linea. Lets stick to reality here.

On Macro level, last 2 months sales analysis trends suggest that Indian buyers are getting increasingly aware on what they're getting from others & what they are not getting for Honda even after paying a premium.

The Jazz initially took some of the City's buyers away. Even though they are from entirely different segments, the pricing is too darn close and this factor is something Honda & its dealers openly accept. And yes, last I checked, the Honda City is still the best seller from its segment, Jazz effect or not.

Look at sales figures over 1 - 2 - 5 years, don't base your judgement on two months. For the record, Honda is going to produce over 4,000 Citys in September. Don't ask me how I know.

the strong reason would be Jazz launch at those price points. Thats the point where it seems Honda has stretched so much that the thing broken & people started looking elsewhere.

No doubt, Honda made a big guffaw with the Jazz pricing.

While I agree with you on Cost of ownership for Honda to be lower, in absolute "price" terms, I tend to disagree & still feel its overpriced.

Umm, that's a paradox if I ever saw one. How is a product, whose net ownership cost is cheaper than competition, still overpriced? Lets not be naive and base cost of ownership only on the ex-showroom price. If anything, the competition which costs more to own over 5 years is overpriced!. NET COST OF OWNERSHIP is what counts. To understand this concept clearly, I highly recommend a visit to my article

With relevance to features, please refer to my previous post. Neither Honda nor Toyota have ever been about features. Worldwide.

Then small but imp thingies like Chrome Door Handles, Side Chrome Strips, Bumper Protection Chrome strips etc etc

I'm sorry, but to me, the more "imp thingies" are performance, fuel efficiency, low cost of maintenance, long term reliability and resale value. I think its safe to assume that 99 out of 100 people value these over chrome door handles and side strips.

We can try to convince ourselves saying these are not important. But the abscence of these can not be taken as "Zero". It should be taken as "Negative'. Similarly, prescence of these should not be taken as "Zero" but should be taken as "Positive'.

Who is trying to blindly convince anyone??? This is an objective discussion. Of course, we'd love more equipment on the City. But that's not taking away from the fact that it still offers great value. The market seems to agree as the City is the best seller, despite not even having a diesel. If the City has a disadvantage in the equipment area, the competition has even BIGGER disadvantages in more areas that count. Lets get one thing straight here : No car is perfect. Not even the 80 lakh rupee S Class with its doubtful reliability or the 1 crore 7 series with its firm ride quality.

When one takes all these into account, deducts for Negatives, adds for positives, the Price difference between VMT & SX4/Linea becomes very very high.

I'll tell you what people really take into account.

Take my OHC Vtec. EVERYTHING works the way it is supposed to. Consider this fact : My 7 year old OHC Vtec has lesser niggles than a brand new Fiat Linea. Each & every bulb functions, each & every mechanical part performs, leave the steering and it will still run straight. The last time my Vtec had its scheduled service visit was in Jan ’09. For the next visit in Jan ’10, I only have two things on my to-do list so far : Cracked windscreen & clean air-con blower of dust. That’s it, NO MALFUNCTIONS! Can you beat that? Vahan, since you live in Mumbai and are a car guy, drop me a PM the next you are around Churchgate. Drive my Vtec and you will be amazed at the way that she has held up after 7 years of extremely hard high-rpm driving. The performer side in me cannot help but end up impressed at this ability to work day in and day out without a single defect.

I got another one for those of you who think Hondas are overpriced. Guess which four brands command the HIGHEST brand loyalty in India? Honda, Toyota, Maruti & Hyundai. In other words, these 4 brands have the HIGHEST in return customers. Says a lot, don’t you think? Why am I not surprised? It’s only after you own their cars that the “supposed premium” is more than negated in the long run. Plus, we enjoy best-in-class performance, efficiency, lowest cost of ownership and the best resale.

No action speaks louder than the return customer who is paying with his own hard-earned money. There isn't a larger attestation to customer satisfaction.

Yes. I also read somewhere that Honda Alloy wheel set comes at around Rs. 50 K. Thats a big money.
Even Linea Alloy is Rs. 10,000/- per piece. But still it gives in Emotion Pack.

Please stick to the competitive analysis. MOST manufacturers have overpriced alloys. You've just given the example of Linea, heck my Mahindra Jeep's alloy wheels cost 7,000 if bought from the company. And I buy a C class alloy wheel for 35 grand (insurance billed).

Originally Posted by srishiva

The "safety for everyone" initiative took care of this for new models (including ACE).

Yeah, lets talk about TODAY and the CURRENT market situation. Fact is, Honda is the ONLY manufacturer in India to sell ALL their cars in ALL variants with ABS & airbags as standard.

Originally Posted by oss

What is more disappointing is having built a premium image and snob value, the kind of interiors they offered in the ANHC was rubbish to say the least.

You can say that again. Again, I am in no way trying to imply that the ANHC is perfect in any way. It has MANY areas of improvement. Yet, there isn't a doubt that the car is an all-rounder and certainly NOT overpriced as some posters have made it seem to be (earlier in the thread). In my books, the Honda City is still the definitive C segment petrol sedan. The masses seem to concur.

[maglev]

What about the additional cost of capital involved in buying the New City? If Honda charges a premium of say 1.2 -1.3 lacs. Then this additional capital has a cost involved which many people seem to have blissfully ignored.

For the lowest cost of ownership this fact needs to be taken into account as the deferment of payment in the form of a higher costs of ownership (For other cars), actually enables the buyer to save some money as the deferment of payment ends up reducing the value of the money paid in present value terms. Hence the buyer ends up saving!!

The Honda is the most fuel efficient Petrol C segment car. period

But the cost of OE spares is actually more for the City than the SX4, Verna(P), Fiesta(P).

The Cost of the total parts basket:

SX4: Rs. 54,431.00/-
City: Rs. 88,502.93/-
Verna(P): Rs. 57,687.00/-
Fiesta(P): Rs. 72,409.00/-
Linea : Was a new launch back then, Hence data not available.

(Source: Autocar Spare Parts Price Survey, Issue: March 2009)

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by maglev

The Cost of the total parts basket:

SX4: Rs. 54,431.00/-
City: Rs. 88,502.93/-
Verna(P): Rs. 57,687.00/-
Fiesta(P): Rs. 72,409.00/-
Linea : Was a new launch back then, Hence data not available.

(Source: Autocar Spare Parts Price Survey, Issue: March 2009)

There is the pricing of the spare parts in absolute terms and then there is:
1. cost of the car (Alto may have cheaper spare parts than the Altis).
2. need for the spare parts (which is based on what is the quality standard of the original part).

[CBlazer]

Anyone who has seen the car himself - how good are the City's interiors now? How does the quality of interiors compare with NHC? Sorry, if this was discussed earlier. I seem to have missed it.

[pmbabu]

Originally Posted by vasudeva

There is the pricing of the spare parts in absolute terms and then there is:
2.need for the spare parts (which is based on what is the quality standard of the original part).

Absolutely. Please always consider how frequently a spart part will be required along with its cost to purchase and the labour to fit it in.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by pmbabu

Visibility from the driver's position - In SX4 and Linea, visibility is somewhat obstructed due to the design of the A-pillars, which is not a problem with ANHC (or Verna/Fiesta).

See, it's the little things that count. Starting with the large greenhouse. Or the spot-on ergonomics. Or the slick gearshift.

Originally Posted by wanderlustindia

This is brilliant stuff. I've always been a Honda basher, considering the fact that they charge a hefty premium over their direct competitors. It was disappointing to see the ANHC not offering alloys as standard, let alone optional. But I'd also go on to add that adding safety features like ABS and Airbags across all trims is something for which Honda should be given a pat on back.

But the analysis by GTO brings a fresh perspective to me. I'll have to be more careful about making sweeping statements regarding Honda from hereon.

P.S: Another factor that perhaps clinches the debate in favor of Honda is the fact that whatever they launch in India is in line with their international line-up (unlike some OEMs like Mitsubishi who are still content with the Cedia that is two generations old, I presume). Maybe that is what brings Honda repeat customers in hordes!

Thanks. That's what I aim to do with this objective analysis. There is a little too much blind bashing here and its something we have a very STRONG stand against.

Originally Posted by maglev

What about the additional cost of capital involved in buying the New City? If Honda charges a premium of say 1.2 -1.3 lacs. Then this additional capital has a cost involved which many people seem to have blissfully ignored.

Good point, not to mention the opportunity cost. Still, after you consider:

1. Fuel efficiency
2. Long-term reliability
3. Cheap service costs
4. Better resale
5. More days on the road
6. Superior durability : There is a reason I'm holding on to my 7 year ol' OHC Vtec for another 3 years. It performsn without a single flaw! You should also check Dippys immaculate 2003 OHC Automatic or my accountants '04 90,000 kms NHC. These cars age VERY slowly and thus, one can hold on to them longer.

Ever wonder why so many taxi operators still buy the Innova over the 2 lakh rupee cheaper Xylo?

The ANHC will work out substantially cheaper to own than the Verna or the Linea. I will run up a detailed statistical analysis of the ANHC versus SX4 (as the SX4 also enjoys decent resale and cheap cost of ownership), yet will not stop short of saying that the ANHC is worth everyone of those 1.2 lakh rupees more than the SX4. Better space, way better ride quality, more power, superior fit & finish and roomier interiors.

But the cost of OE spares is actually more for the City than the SX4, Verna(P), Fiesta(P).

The Cost of the total parts basket:

Fortunately, more than car magazine analysis, its the real world that counts.

Fact ONE : Hondas have the cheapest service costs in their segment. My OHC service bills are lower than my humble Indigos. The Accord has service bills of 2,000 bucks (look up mine & Robins debate on the Skoda ownership thread), way lesser than cars costing 10 lakhs. Ajmat posted that, over 20 - 30K kms, his OHCs service bills were lesser than his wifes li'l Maruti.

Fact TWO : Regular consumables. I paid 800 bucks for the timing belt and another 600 in labour for my OHC. The same job costs three grand for the Hyundai Accent (look up Shantanu's timing belt thread).

Fact THREE : As Vasudeva rightly posted, the cost of the part is one thing, but what is equally important is HOW OFTEN the car requires replacement parts. Honda & Toyota, with class leading reliability, simply require lesser repairs.

But yes, accident repair parts is where the Japs are more expensive than some (not all).

I have another point on Honda's market philosophy:

The Honda City, as we know it, is in its third generation in 10 years. What about its competitors from the late nineties? I still see the Lancer as I do the Accent & the Ikon in showrooms (the OHC 1.3 was comparable to Ford / Accent 1.6 in performance and price). Maruti sold the Baleno till only 3 years back. So, while the competition continues to sell its outdated horses, the only player in the C segment which has offered entirely new cars most frequently is Honda.

Let us give credit where it's due instead of blind bashing. The latter is not befitting of Team-BHP.

[vasudeva]

It seems that at least customers in the US are ready to pay higher prices (and allegedly higher spare part costs) for Toyota and Honda, again and again. Either they are suckers or maybe they have a different sort of evaluation. These two companies have largely led the customer loyalty index, with >60% meaning that many proportion of existing customers will go on to buy from the same company again. Toyota led in 2007, but Honda overtook Toyota in 2008 with 64.7% of Honda owners replacing their vehicles with another Honda, according to the 2008 Customer Retention Study by J.D. Power and Associates. Toyota, the 2007 winner, placed second at 63.2 percent, followed by Lexus, Mercedes-Benz and BMW. Five Japanese brands were among the 11 brands above the average industry score of 48 percent.

Another recently introduced JD Power metric is the New Customer Ratio or the conquest ratio. This says that Toyota, Lexus, Hyundai, Honda and Hummer are the US automobile industry's strongest brands. JD Power says a measurement below 100 in its index indicates that a brand is losing existing customers faster that it can conquest new ones. Only consumers who bought or leased their trade-in vehicle as new are counted in the index. For instance, the Ford brand has a new-customer ratio of 44 percent. That means it is losing twice as many existing Ford owners as it has new conquests coming in. About 53 percent of Ford owners buy another one, considered a healthy loyalty ratio. But that group represents 72 percent of the brand's retail sales. Thus Ford is unable to conquest new customers.

Toyota has a new-customer ratio of 267 percent, which means it is bringing in nearly three times as many new customers as it has old ones staying put. Toyota's 63 percent loyalty rating is the industry's second best, yet represents just 41 percent of total sales. Its conquest sales are huge. Honda shows similar strong numbers.

Chrysler, Jeep and Dodge show weak loyalty numbers. And they mostly conquest sales from each other, while leaching sales to non-Chrysler brands. Something similar is happening at Mercury, Pontiac and Buick.

Luxury brands Acura, Cadillac, Saab and Volvo have trends seen as troublesome. Power says many of their conquests and defectors come and go from mass-market brands such as Toyota, Honda, Ford and Chevrolet.

[wanderlustindia]

Originally Posted by GTO

The Honda City, as we know it, is in its third generation in 10 years. What about its competitors from the late nineties? I still see the Lancer as I do the Accent & the Ikon in showrooms (the OHC 1.3 was comparable to Ford / Accent 1.6 in performance and price). Maruti sold the Baleno till only 3 years back. So, while the competition continues to sell its outdated horses, the only player in the C segment which has offered entirely new cars most frequently is Honda.

Cannot agree much more on this. I would go to the extent of saying that this particular aspect might lead Honda folks to believe they can charge a premium over the competition (although I hope that is not the case :-))!

[sathee46]

Originally Posted by GTO

I got another one for those of you who think Hondas are overpriced. Guess which four brands command the HIGHEST brand loyalty in India? Honda, Toyota, Maruti & Hyundai. In other words, these 4 brands have the HIGHEST in return customers. Says a lot, don’t you think? Why am I not surprised? It’s only after you own their cars that the “supposed premium” is more than negated in the long run.

A cousin/best friend of mine a big fan of Honda, He bought one of the last OHC vtec right when the NHC was launched. Waiting to buy a new car and being a loyal customer to honda, he booked the ANHC even without a test drive. Now he regrets for being so loyal. The OHC was an expensive car in the segment at that time, but it was worth every penny to own one. Your testimonial for the OHC proves that it was indeed a great car. The ANHC is also a great car, there is no doubt on that. As you have already mentioned there are many areas it could improve on, especially for the premium they are getting. Else they may not have the same loyal customers coming back.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by GTO

Thanks. That's what I aim to do with this objective analysis. There is a little too much blind bashing here and its something we have a very STRONG stand against.

The ANHC will work out substantially cheaper to own than the Verna or the Linea. I will run up a detailed statistical analysis of the ANHC versus SX4 (as the SX4 also enjoys decent resale and cheap cost of ownership), yet will not stop short of saying that the ANHC is worth everyone of those 1.2 lakh rupees more than the SX4. Better space, way better ride quality, more power, superior fit & finish and roomier interiors.

GTO, I think you agree that even the SMT model should have factory fitted alloys. How much does Honda think it's alloys are worth? Rs11000/- a piece. So I think (for a set of 5), the SMT is overpriced by about 50K. It still does have other features which competition has and silver colored plastic gives a cheap feeling to the interiors but I would have been able to digest it. Buying alloys outside is an option but my only concern (as I read in this forum) was the effect on warranty.

On the lighter side, I hope no one from Honda is reading your comments for it will cement it in their minds that they dont need to provide any other feature at that cost .

[VahanPujari]

Originally Posted by GTO

However, I do not accept your statement that Honda has only been reactive. They've also been extremely pro-active. Here is how:

No, I've not said that Honda has been only reactive. What I meant by "it has become increasingly reactive" is compared to its earlier times of say OHC/ NHC. Its now not "only proactive" but reactive as well. The biggest proof is having to relaunch City in less than a year of launching.

More the overall competitive scenario than only the Linea. Lets stick to reality here.

Yes. But the major share in creating that overall competitive scenario (benefitting the market) is by SX4 & then Linea. Lets not take away the credit where its due.

And yes, last I checked, the Honda City is still the best seller from its segment, Jazz effect or not.

Yes. But the Leaders always hate to lose even 0.1% market share. Ain't they?

Look at sales figures over 1 - 2 - 5 years, don't base your judgement on two months.

Last 2 months trend is for Jazz & ANHC. Last 2 years trend is for Civic.

• Civic is beaten fairly & squarely by Altis to such an extent that the sales are in the ratio of 3:1 in favour of Altis. The market needed an Altis to understand that Civic is comparatively underequipped at its price.
• Accord which is a Superb product itself & a leader loses leadership to a Skoda Superb, a company which has nightmarish A.S.S.
• Jazz is far behind i20 & Punto
• ANHC sales decreasing in last 2 months. Though 2 months is a very short time, it'll be interesting to observe the trend in next few months. If the market share does not increase, Honda may need to do something faster. If market share increases, then may we will need a Toyota car in this segment (a la Altis) to realise whether ANHC is underequipped or overpriced.

My point is a Leader does not (& should not) like the above trends because if not arrested immediately, the trend becomes reality & a regular feature.

No doubt, Honda made a big guffaw with the Jazz pricing.

If the above trends persist, then IMO the biggest culprit for Honda would be Jazz because its having a spiralling effect. How? Honda has to differentiate between Jazz & has to price new ANHC higher accordingly. Same manner, it has to differentiate ANHC & Civic pricing & has to price Civic accordingly. At that price, is Civic offering more value than Altis?

For the record, Honda is going to produce over 4,000 Citys in September. Don't ask me how I know.

Hey, you have a scoop there. We would like to hear more .

In next 3 months time, if ANHC increases or retains its market share, then kudos to Honda & its hard work for last 10 years. If not, then the trend & dynamics are changing in Indian market. Welcome to the competitive world.

Umm, that's a paradox if I ever saw one. How is a product, whose net ownership cost is cheaper than competition, still overpriced? Lets not be naive and base cost of ownership only on the ex-showroom price. If anything, the competition which costs more to own over 5 years is overpriced!. NET COST OF OWNERSHIP is what counts. To understand this concept clearly, I highly recommend a visit to my article

Technically, "Cost of Ownership" & "Pricing" are 2 different terms. "Pricing" should be Purchase Price whereas "Cost of Ownership" is spreaded over ownership period & could be a function of Pricing. Thats why I clearly written low Cost of Ownership but still Overpriced, IMO.
OK. compare ANHC with SX4. Now both cost of ownership & Pricing are much much higher. SX4 has better service. Honda has average service.

Take my OHC Vtec. EVERYTHING works the way it is supposed to. Consider this fact : My 7 year old OHC Vtec has lesser niggles than a brand new Fiat Linea. Each & every bulb functions, each & every mechanical part performs, leave the steering and it will still run straight. The last time my Vtec had its scheduled service visit was in Jan ’09. For the next visit in Jan ’10, I only have two things on my to-do list so far : Cracked windscreen & clean air-con blower of dust. That’s it, NO MALFUNCTIONS! Can you beat that? Vahan, since you live in Mumbai and are a car guy, drop me a PM the next you are around Churchgate. Drive my Vtec and you will be amazed at the way that she has held up after 7 years of extremely hard high-rpm driving. The performer side in me cannot help but end up impressed at this ability to work day in and day out without a single defect.

There is no doubt about OHC Vtec performance & reliability.

By the same tokem my earlier humble Ford Ikon served me for 90000 kms for 6 years without change of any part & never broke down on road. It ran atleast 20,000 kms in interior rural Gujarat kutchcha roads. For me Ford Ikon reliability is as good as my Ikon piece's reliability. So, is Ikon as reliable as OHC Vtec? No, because reliability is measured in no.of defects in Lacs/ millions. Now there is a possibility that that 1-odd troubling piece comes to me. It can happen with Vtec, it can happen with any car. The probability varies. If its 1 defect per lac for vtec, it could be 2/3/4 times per lac for SX4/Linea/ others.
I'm not saying Reliability is not important. Its very important but till a point.

Please stick to the competitive analysis.

Thats why I thought VMT is the most comparable model than SMT. It has Alloys like SX4 zxi & Linea E pack unlike SMT.

PS: Rightly priced or overpriced also depends on individual views/ preferences & there is no end to it. The best way is to wait for 3 months to see whether the trends are changing or not. In next 3 months time, if ANHC increases or retains its market share, then kudos to Honda & its hard work for last 10 years. If not, then the trend & dynamics are changing in Indian market. Welcome to the competitive world.

[theEnd]

Originally Posted by ImmortalZ

Might as well buy the old car then. You don't need half of the new features.

I do need the other half of the new features

Originally Posted by pmbabu

Why not just buy the S-MT?

I want a highly spec'ed car, but IMHO Honda has put some really dumb things in the car.

Chrome looks good on a Harley or on a 60's American car (or an 80's Merc), but definitely looks stupid on a 21st century Japanese compact.

And a head unit that cant play CDs and has no bluetooth functionality is a shame, given that its onw 2009. If you go aftermarket you get better features at a lower price, with additional goodies like a full set of pre-outs (for external amplification), time-alignment, graphic equalizer and high-pass and low-pass filters.

Thanks for your responses. I can see that this car has really generated some strong opinions.