[anilkalvani]

My cousin sister's husband has a 2002 or 2003 OHC 1.3DX (The Crystal Lights One), 2005 NHC Exi, 2007 NHC ZX GXi & 2009 VW Jetta 1.9TDi Trendline. He is looking to add another car to his stable, the new ANHC V Variant. I asked him why? He said that his OHC has clocked 86k's and till now he has not had a clutch job, a suspension job, nothing. Only changed tyres at 45k's and will change them soon. The 2005 NHC Exi is driven by my cousin sister. Two months into her ownership, she had a major accident where she was rear ended on Marine drive. Till today she averages 13kmpl in Mumbai city. Ditto with the 2007 ZX. Other than service, accidental repairs, dents, paint jobs or regular oil fuel filter changes, not once has any of their cars gone for mechanical or electrical repairs, not even a fuse. When they bought the Jetta, they had a look at the Civic too but the soft suspension ruled out their decision. They actually measured the GC which was 160mm and its not that bad, its the soft suspension as well as the long wheelbase of 2700mm that was the culprit.

For them the Honda City is king & as GTO rightly pointed out, its not only the brand, but the product reliability that matters.

[lancer_rit]

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

I thought I was ready to pay a premium of Rs. 1.25 Lacs for ANHC. However, ANHC which was stripped off the above equipments was already higher priced to the tune of Rs. 1.25-1.50 Lacs. Since these equipments are available in a car in the market, I wanted it. Why should I not want it after spending 8-9 lacs on a car & when its available in the market? So, calculations start on cost of ANHC with all these (wherever available OEM & if not then aftermarket). With all these the difference in price i.e. premium was coming to over-2.5 Lacs. Naah.

Ok, I get most of your logic but there is still a major flaw.
Linea Petrol : 1.4l, 90ps, 115Nm anemic engine
ANHC : 1.5l, 118ps, 146Nm responsive and refined engine.
What according to you is the cost/value of ANHC high-tech motor vs Linea's old and barebones mill ? Zero ?

In that case, I suggest that when Fiat does launch the Tjet 120bhp petrol, they should keep the price same as current 1.4 FIRE - after all, you didn't find any value in higher capacity, higher bhp & torque and high tech engine which makes driving a breeze in city and highway, no matter it costs the manufacturer to provide it ?

I like the Linea and Punto a lot, but they do have a lot of shortcomings. Look at the turning radius for example. A ANHC turns tighter than even the Punto, and that is another example of practicality of Jap cars esp Honda/Toyota in the 'City' (pun intended)

@GTO,
I was in minority in the ANHC launch thread on tbhp, I am quite sure I was in majority as far the Indian car market is concerned. Have followed Honda since 1998, and deep respect for OHC at its time even though I bought the Lancer over OHC 1.5 / OHC 1.5VTEC

[MaserQ]

The VFM factor needs to be separated from the 'desirability' factor of the ANHC.
For example, a customer might buy the ANHC regardless of the fact that he thinks it is overpriced. He might find the product aspirational or might be drawn to its superior A.S.S or resale value.

Whether it is over-priced or not, squarely depends on the weightage given by each individual. Therefore, it is subjective.

[arunmur]

One of the biggest thing i consider missing in the old City is ground clearance. I was astounded when Honda did not fix it even in the new City. It is especially important in cities like Bangalore where you drive over moon creators and hill bumps. My uncle's City scrapes atleast thrice a day in our roads. All the dealer has to say is "Dont worry it has rails that protect the underbody, you can replace the rails".

Being light the city is pretty dangerous in our roads where the roads are build like steps you could approach one at 80kmph with no warning signs I find that the City gets thrown around. In my experience the SX4 is best at this.

Dont crash your city.

> If you do be ready to cough up massive sums for spare parts.

> Not safety rated. I know City carries all the gears but its not safety rated by any international organization. I consider a car with 1.5 rating more safer than an unrated car. I know Honda might be far better than most of them in India but it will be better if they can get it rated. Many Chinese cars with all gears dont pass saftey norms in Europe or NA, so get it rated first.

I would have voted(and even bought) for city otherwise.

The good things about the City are its engine.

VTec with over 100 ps. Fastest off the line.

Cheap to run and maintain on a day to day bassis gives some diesels serious competition.

Good seats.

Light Steering. Superb for in city driving.

Looks.

High resale value. Assured that Honda dealers will give you better resale if you go for another Honda.

Brand Image. A common man recognizes the City as the mordern mid-high end car.

Low Interest rates. Honda often gives cars with nice low interest rates making the EMI lower than similar cars in the range.

Honda's philosophy.



Finally the deadly dead pedal. I wonder why we are so specific about dead pedals and go so far as to choose other cars for that. I find very little requirement for them. Infact they bother me when i drive constantly at 0-10kmph. I also dont see a situation where i will keep my leg on a dead pedal. Yeah i have tried many cars from the old Santro, Verna, Honda City etc. I prefer heal-toe hydraulic clutch with a short throw.

A large space next to the clutch pedal is a better option(in my opinion) as it gives a little more leg room at high speeds. A reference pedal next to the accelerator will be a far better stuff when you drive on highways as you don't have to keep mild throttle with great difficulty. The 800 had a wheel arch sitting right in spot to make easy to old the throttle.

Finally its not overpriced, its a good choice but make sure it fits your requirement. Maruti and Hyundai are excellent alternatives in maintainance perspective and Linea if you dont drive it much or need a diesel.

[karanraheja]

Originally Posted by frankmehta

And the fact that Honda charges over a LAC more than its competitors for a car that has a very average engine (better than the rivals, but)

I know that Fiesta S has spoilt you, but the I vtec is a gem. To me atleast its best in the segment .

P.S.:-

I dont get all the talk about Chrome handles and all. I know we Indians love chrome. But whats all the fuss if there is no chrome handles etc?????

[GTO]

Originally Posted by frankmehta

Im still not convinced. the interiors of the ANHC are low rank. I mean the plastics are nowhere close the to the ZX that was atleast better in terms of the interiors.

Agreed. The NHC interiors definitely felt better than that in the ANHC. I'm looking forward to check the facelift out to see if there is any perceivable difference.

Look & feel aside, remember how everyone was critical of the OHCs interiors? Sure, they are bare basic simple but let me tell you they are extremely DURABLE. Samurai sat in the Vtec earlier this year for the first time and he was like "wow, the interiors haven't aged at all". Not a single part gone loose or malfunctioning. Check with Ajmat (ex OHC Vtec owner and current Skoda RS owner) to know more about the durability & reliability.

Originally Posted by e1t1bet

I had pointed out earlier in some thread that City's higher resale value compensates for that extra lac that you pay initially.

And therein, the price differential takes care of itself!

All that being aside, I do not agree that the City is the best car in the segment.

To each his own & there's a car for everyone in todays market! I'm glad you comment on the resale vis a vis initial premium though.

but the difference in power is NOWHERE as significant as the numbers suggest.

It's a difference of a whopping 8 seconds. In other words, nearly twice as quick. You really cannot compare the outright performance of the City, which is the fastest car in its segment, to the Linea which is the slowest. I must add, when I drove the Punto 1.4, it certainly didn't feel as slow as the numbers eventually suggested. Italian petrols & their beautiful sound, wot?

Ride and Handling: GTO, did you miss this point? The Linea totally outclasses the City in this department.

Nope, didn't miss it at all. From the opening post of this thread:

Lets look at the other factors that make a car:

- Performance : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea

- Fuel efficiency : City > SX4 > Linea > Verna

- Ride quality : Linea > City > Verna > SX4

- Handling : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Interior space : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Looks : Linea > City > SX4 > Verna (purely my opinion)

- Overall Fit / Finish : City > Verna > SX4 > Linea

- Features : Linea > SX4 > City > Verna

- Brand (for those whom it matters to) : City > SX4 > Verna > Linea

The OHC had its own personality, the Linea has its own personality, and so does the SX4. Unfortunately, I don't see that in the ANHC (and this is personal).

I concur. The ANHC somehow doesn't have the personality of the OHC.

Originally Posted by srikanths1

(iii) I know its your personal opinion but this is the first time i someone saying that Jap cars are better than German ones - specially growing up in the knowledge segment.

I tell you this as an owner of a Mercedes (and having owned 2 in the past), my BIL drives an S and add several E's in the close circle. Comments come from first hand experience. Give me a Lexus LS460 anywhich day over a Merc S Class.

MUST READ related thread: Define Build Quality

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

Why are we so lenient with Honda?

We are as lenient or critical to Honda as we are to other manufacturers. I have clearly stated that Honda MUST offer alloy wheels, at the least, as standard on all City variants. Please refer to my posts again. However, this point is certainly not anymore a glaring disadvantage than is the Verna's shoddy ride + handling + pathetic resale + lacklustre engine, or the SX4s mega stiff ride + lack of outright quality or the Linea's poor performance + poor fit & finish + residual values. The only real fault we can find with the Honda City is the lack of alloy wheels + climate control, but NOT A SINGLE SERIOUS PRODUCT FAULT like in its competitors.

No, I hope they're not reading this else such relaunches with increased equipemnts/ features

I think Honda & Toyota are smart enough to pick the right things from this (and other) market feedback. Therein, providing cars with class leading performance, efficiency, cost of ownership and reliability as also taking our criticism on alloy wheels + climate control.

I would still be tempted to put had instead of has in above statement

To each his own. Fact is, they are selling the 3rd all new car in the segment IN 10 YEARS (thats the shortest product life cycle) while all competitors continue to flog old outdated cars in the market.

Point is whether all these should have been there in 2008 launch model ANHC & are they a year later than the competition.

I am all for year on year improvements. Am pretty certain that a majority of the market is too. What counts is the current situation, if we have to talk about yesterdays, we can also write a book on Fiats shoddy management of their cars, owners & dealers, or Hyundais 7.5 lakh rupee Accent or Marutis 8.5 lakh rupee Baleno.

I know about that & can not underestimate their legendary Sales Planning System "Niguri". But based on that when I thought Jazz will meet its 2K p.m. target eventhoughits stiff price, it went wrong .

The Jazz is a 3 month old product, while the Honda City is a 10 year old product line. Its safe to presume that their predictions for the well-established City will be far more precise than an all new positioned car. I sure as hell wont be complaining if the ANHC comes with alloys + climate control, and the Jazz wears a 1.5 lakh cheaper price soon.

Why do you feel its bashing? If you see 1st few pages, when the bashing was really going on, I stayed away.

I'm glad as you are more objective than most other Fiat owners. My comment on bashing was not directed toward you, rather toward multiple posts in the old thread.

Thats Product/ brand cannibalisation. And its a bad Product Mix/ Equity strategy then.

As Maruti has proven in the hatchback segment, product cannibalisation is not bad ("we want to offer something to everyone who walks into a Maruti showroom") if managed well. Honda certainly hasn't learnt yet how to manage, albeit in entirely different segments.

Then it also means that a part of ANHC sales comes due to Civic vs Altis battle. Also, is ANHC now entering into Civic terittorry interms of pricing ?

Yes to both. The top ANHC is dangerously close to the Civic.

Precisely this is the trend I'm talking about of customers starts moving away from underequipped cars.

Important to get our facts in place before commenting. The Accord, even before the Superb was launched, as managed average monthly sales of 230 cars, except for March where the sales are higher for all cars (depreciation benefits). Stats:

Jan : 248
Feb : 203
Mar : 326
April : 230
May : 212
June : 205
July : 223
Aug : 229

It's glaringly evident that the market does want cars with class leading reliability, all-roundedness + low cost of ownership. The market "isn't" quite moving away from teh Accord.

Further on the talk of "under-equipped cars", you probably also need to stop by the Fortuner thread. A 20 lakh SUV that doesn't have rear disc brakes, telescopic steering, USB input on the stereo, only two airbags etc. etc. has gone on to become a best seller. Relative to its competition, the Fortuner only proves that the market values:

- Trust factor in a brand
- Durability & reliability
- All roundedness
- Class leading performance
- Low cost of ownership

Far more than features. Else, the Endeavour & Captiva would have been selling better than the Fortuner. And the Linea, with all its features, would have been the best seller instead of the worst in its segment.

Technical terms are technical terms. Pricing & Cost of Ownershiop are 2 different things.

There is NOTHING technical about the cost of ownership, it's HARD CASH. A car is not only about the initial purchase price, else why should anyone buy diesels (high initial acquisition cost but lower ownership costs). Cars are not showpieces, they need to run, tanks need to be replenished with fuel, parts need replacement and reliability is MOST IMPORTANT. To finish first, you got to first finish.

I do recommend you to visit:

Ajmats thread

My Article

The fact is : A Honda City will work out way cheaper to own for 3 / 5 / 7 / 10 years. If purchase cost is the only thing that matters, then you probably also think that teh Octavia is cheaper to run than the Altis.

Do you know why the BMW 5 is outselling the E Class? Majorly due to the cost of ownership (5 year BSI versus 2 year Merc warranty). When the cost of ownership matters to 50 lakh rupee millionaires, I'd be extremely surprised if it didnt to 8 lakh rupee sedan buyers. ANY informed car buyer will take into account total cost of ownership instead of only the initial acquisition price.

Its ironical that the only people who think that Hondas are overpriced do NOT own a Honda. However, just the fact that Honda (and Toyota) have the strongest brand loyalty (in India and abroad) illustrates just how much value they see in the car.

Also, almost equal (if not more) no. of customers in this segment are buying SX4/ Verna/ Fiesta/ Linea etc.

Almost equal? Last 6 months:

Honda City : 30275
SX4 : 8797
Linea : 9093
Fiesta : 7605
Verna : 10975

The Linea initially had a surge (three months) of 1500 - 1600 cars thanks to it being a fresh launch. In the past 6 months, its been the worst seller of this bunch. I guess that goes to show how important features are, vis a vis other product attributes such as reliability, cost of ownership, performance & efficiency.

And lets assume its 4 times/ 5 times/ 6 times higher (i.e. 4/5/6 cars) defects per 10,000 for other cars. Heck, does it matter critical beyond a reasonable point?

Evidently does to most car owners. Do visit the build quality thread that I have linked to earlier. About 75% of this community values precision & reliability as top priority. The Japs domination in the world markets seems to suggest that everyone else does too.

Also, a 4/5/6 times higher failure rate is substantial, as anyone would agree.

You still might get a lemon with a Mercedese

Look up Merc's reliability records. The probability of getting a Merc lemon is very high.

Honda with its Reliability, Performance, Space management, refinement, resale etc commands a premium & I'm & was always ready to pay a premium.

SX4 & Linea offers much more features/ equipments. Obviously I want those features.

The market has something for everyone, wot? Good thing competition is. I'm glad that you value features over other product attributes that are so obviously more important to me (and the rest of the market as the City & fortuner sales prove).

However, ANHC which was stripped off the above equipments was already higher priced to the tune of Rs. 1.25-1.50 Lacs.

But eventually much cheaper to own, I might add. If history is anything to go by, an ANHC would work out more inexpensive by a couple of lakhs in the long run.

[inwester]

Originally Posted by GTO

Look & feel aside, remember how everyone was critical of the OHCs interiors? Sure, they are bare basic simple but let me tell you they are extremely DURABLE. Samurai sat in the Vtec earlier this year for the first time and he was like "wow, the interiors haven't aged at all". Not a single part gone loose or malfunctioning. Check with Ajmat (ex OHC Vtec owner and current Skoda RS owner) to know more about the durability & reliability.

And therein, the price differential takes care of itself!

Hey GTO - as an owner of a Honda City from 2000 onwards, I can vouch for the ridiculously expensive parts and service. I always used to get it serviced from Peninsular Honda or Whitefield Honda.

First the pros - The car drives and handles like a dream, even though the suspension/ride quality is nothing to write home about. I always used to get 12-13 kmpl in the city and up to 15-16 on the highway at around 100-120 speed levels. The transmission was one of the best available at that time and the engine, though small and lacking a bit of mid-range torque, was peppy and powerful enough for our roads.

Now the cons -
The car so far has 120,000 kms and I've had niggling quality issues since the day I took delivery of the car. Power windows were the first to show the issues, changed motor umpteen times (each one costs about 10,000 rs). OEM front fog lamps put you back by 25,000, alloy wheels were 40,000 and the standard stereo which came with the car was worse than the next door barber's radio! The quality of plastics used was atrocious. I don't know what you mean by 'wow, the interiors haven't aged at all'? The material on the steering wheel is peeling off and you can feel dust in your palms. I guess buckets have better plastic than the one's used on the dashboard (take a look at the big red hazard button for example). The car came with donut sized tyres. I use this car mainly on highways when I'm in India, may be 3-4 months a year and rest of the time the car is garaged. In the past 4-5 years, I've replaced the entire suspension, including lower arms, struts, joints etc. (a 65,000 job), a fender costs around 14,000, exhaust costs 17,000, steering rod assemble 25,000 (don't remember) well, pretty much any part is upwards of 10,000-20,000 (apart from may be wiper blades and brake shoes?). These are the costs of the parts I can remember on top of my head, may be I can add others if I dig in to older service records. I think I might have replaced the radiator as well due to a leak (by the way, car was never wrecked, no accidents etc.).

When I first got the car, it was called "gem of a car, and jewel of an engine" (which probably it still is) but 10 lakhs at that time plus around 5 k spent in service doesn't add all that well in terms of value. I probably can sell the car for 1.5 to 2 lakhs now if I'm not mistaken. It clearly was one of my favorite cars to drive, however, I am still missing the "value" proposition after 9 years.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by frankmehta

And what about the Fiesta? Why not speak of it here? It drives better, and (according to me) has better quality interiors. They are very cramped, compared to the ANHC but the car costs a whole 2-2.5 lacs cheaper than the ANHC and offers similar specifications, and maybe, a better engine (albeit with lesser power but seemingly better torque).

Hold those horses, will ya! I'll add the Fiesta shortly.

Originally Posted by inwester

the suspension/ride quality is nothing to write home about.

Ride is okay but the high speed stability - My gawd! One starts praying at 140, the OHC's composure is outdated by todays standards. Even the Swift is better composed at high speeds than the basic feather light OHC.

I always used to get 12-13 kmpl in the city and up to 15-16 on the highway at around 100-120 speed levels. The transmission was one of the best available at that time and the engine, though small and lacking a bit of mid-range torque, was peppy and powerful enough for our roads.

Still unbeated in the 0 - 100 time

The car so far has 120,000 kms and I've had niggling quality issues since the day I took delivery of the car.

Looks like you got yourself a rare lemon. Search through the several OHC long-term experiences on the forum. The probability of ending up with a faulty Honda / Toyota is substantially lesser than other brands.

I don't know what you mean by 'wow, the interiors haven't aged at all'?

I'll put up the latest pictures of my OHC interiors. No more than 10% wear & tear.

The car came with donut sized tyres.

No doubt. A tyre upgrade for the OHC was / is top priority. Even the current ANHC is under-tyred in my opinion. A nice set of 195 / 205 Michelins totally transform the handling.

In the past 4-5 years, I've replaced the entire suspension, including lower arms, struts, joints etc. (a 65,000 job), a fender costs around 14,000, exhaust costs 17,000, steering rod assemble 25,000 (don't remember)

You would have done well in considering aftermarket options. Once a car crosses 5 years of ownership, best to look at an independent for major jobs.

Suspension : You've been ripped by the Honda after-sales (not surprised, as highlit earlier & on the portal, Honda's after-sales needs a serious revamp). I got my suspension overhauled (didn't need it, but wanted the tightness) for less than 18 grand including labour. Parts were OEM Honda, but installed after-market.

Steering rack : Known OHC problem (search the forum). I got mine repaired for 3 - 4K instead of replacement (Honda & Toyota policy).

but 10 lakhs at that time plus around 5 k spent in service

5K for each service? Unless they used synthetic oil, you've been ripped again. I have paid between 900 - 1500 for most services, and 5000 for the major ones (at 20K intervals). Even other OHC owners have paid in this ballpark. Check out Shantanu's & Ajmats LTR threads in particular.

[VahanPujari]

GTO

I would AGREE to DISAGREE & sign off from this thread. There is no end to these debates.

[Shan2nu]

Still unbeated in the 0 - 100 time

Actually its still unbeaten till 160kmph (nobody has tested beyond this point).

but 10 lakhs at that time plus around 5 k spent in service

I pay around 1000-1500 bucks for regular service.

Shan2nu

[Sudan_NFS]

Originally Posted by VahanPujari

GTO

I would AGREE to DISAGREE & sign off from this thread. There is no end to these debates.

+1

I haven't posted anything in this thread but this debate never seems end.

Atlast it's up to the buyer to decide whether the product is overpirced or not.

P.S:
we are free to give comments on the product

[coolboy007]

Originally Posted by GTO

We are talking long-term reliability here, not merely what happens in the first 10 - 12K kms. Its a fact that even 40,000 - 50,000 kms Hondas are known as "virgins". Heck, my 7 year old OHC Vtec has ZERO niggles, niggles that are being reported even on 6 month old Lineas & Puntos. THAT is the difference in quality. I myself am a fan of the Linea & Punto (especially in diesel guise), but comparing the long term reliability, how they are screwed together or durability with a Honda / Toyota is going nowhere!

GTO,
Thats what i meant. ANHC has to its credit the goodwill of 2 predecessors OHC and NHC especially the OHC which was the most applauded car.
At present we have no data for the ANHC reliability but everyone knows how good and reliable may the car be as the other 2 City's never disappointed anyone.

On a contrast, Jazz has no name for it from the past and is 50% off its sales targets, heck its priced in the C segment category and doesnt even have a 1.5 Ivtec. This shows how much reputation and goodwill a mfr requires to sell cars in India.

As prev said by me, anyone buying a Linea at present has a risk factor attached to it as we have no data about Linea or Punto as to how long their suspensions or clutch etc last +the wonderful service given by fiat in past
Its all upto buyers to decide, their mentality, whether they want alloys or ACC for their money or dont want to take any risk and want a good car from a reputed mfr like Maruti, Honda, Toyota.

Regarding small niggles, agree they are there. Dont know why, bad QC or cost cutting by the company. I wanted to convey that NO Linea or Punto till now has a reported a serious problem in their runnings. Small niggles are there which shouldnt have been there and thats bad from a 6 month old car, accept it.

At present, Fiat cant be compared to a Honda in snob value leave alone reliability factor. Only time will tell whether it will change or will remain like this.
Also, at present an Indian has to do a small compromise if he is buying a car south of 10L. He will never get to have the perfect package. Some compromise here or there but he has to do it. With looks, ride or handling or something.
Each car ANHC/Fiesta/Verna/Linea have something less in them but then buyers choose which package suits them best and make their decision

Sorry, if i sounded bias in the earlier post. Had no intentions to do so but was just replyin to one member's post with my thoughts.

Post Deleted by the Team-BHP Support : Personal attacks are STRICTLY prohibited on this community.

Please view our board rules carefully before proceeding any further.

[neotraveller]

GTO,

To be fair, the comparison should have been made with ANHC V MT.
Still the "V" lacks Climate Control.

Honda City V: Rs 8,82,000
Maruti SX4 : 714,129
Hyundai Verna : 713,316
Fiat Linea : 723,991

ANHC is almost 1.7L more than the competition. Also if you add taxes ... 8% on average
You have to pay a premium of 1.84 Lakhs

Agreed Honda's have the best petrol engines. And they give good mileage and are more reliable. Hence we need to pay a premium for them.

The whole debate in this thread needs ONE answer:
Q) How much premium should you pay for a reliable & powerful Honda engine?
A) In my view 75k or 1 Lakh at the most. Anything over that is INSANE.

[simplythebest]

OFF TOPIC: When are we gonna start referring to the honda citys and accords as 1st gen (1G, 2G) etc?

The HC, NHC and ANHC is getting a bit confusing. And what are we gonna do with the next one... AVeryNHC?

When the classifieds have a "New Honda City" for sale, you expect it to be the new model. Not the previous generation.